Either vintage or current production will do.

The least expensive yet hi-fi turntable.

Maybe a Pro-ject or MMF?

Thanks

A friend gave me a Yamaha with an Ortofon cart installed, hard to beat that. I'm listening to it now. Well, sure, somebody else probably got a better tt for free.

So maybe we should define cheap. Free? 5 bucks? A hundred?

Maybe read the other thread on auto tt's if you're looking for names to be on the lookout for. Any Dual is pretty safe. Now hunt epay for a local pickup of one that other bidders missed. Or run the thrift store routes. Somebody here might have a nice tt. Doesn't look like many of them bring high dollar used, so the field is wide open.

But it's a personal thing as well. Anything operated by hand will irritate some people and please others. I'm pretty specific about wanting small, thin arms and tiny headshells, very smooth arm movements, a platter that doesn't tilt or stall when you put a parastat on it to clean a record. Nice cue lever I don't have to hunt for in the dark. Good looks.

After that, auto, non-auto, semi-auto, motor construction or design don't matter as much to me as they would to others.

I'm sure you can find a better deal, but I have a Dual 1245 I can sell for $35 plus shipping. It's a fairly light unit so shipping wouldn't be too bad. Check out other stuff first.

-Ed

Is your goal "just" to have a decent tt, or an "audiophile" tt? The former category is deep, broad, and cheap... the latter'll cost you unless you get lucky.
the 1970's Japanese tt's were perfectly decent when mated with an appropriate cartridge for their rather massive, chrome-plated S-shaped arms.
Personally, I preferred the Philips and Thorens tables of the same era, with simpler, lighter arms and suspended subchassis.

That being said: IF you're in New England, I have a few decent enough tt's in the basement, one of which could be yours for the cost of a trip over!

see:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29789&highlight=JVC

and:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31122

I am loath to try to ship a tt, but I could try if you're feeling adventuresome...

rega planar 2 :scratch2:

One of those mid 70's japanese "S" arm TT with a, say, Audiotechnica AT440ML would make for a nice turntable?

Would that be far from an entry level "audiophile" turntable?

I have a Directdrive JVC (SL-F4) which is pretty nice, but it is dying.

Unfortunately I am nowhere close by... I live in Brazil! :)

Thanks though.

Brazil! :yikes: mh, you still want to try shipping a TT? :D

Tuareg, time to revise criteria for TT. What used gear is available to you, locally? Failing that, what new pieces can be had?

Maybe our buddy Vlad can send you something! :lmao: (just kidding, Tuareg. do a search of the forum for Vlad20001 threads.)

If you liked the JVC, why not repair it? What exactly is 'dying'? It might be easier to get a new motor, for instance, if that is what you need.

If you liked the JVC, why not repair it? What exactly is 'dying'? It might be easier to get a new motor, for instance, if that is what you need.


Or a new belt !?

Regards
Army

there are several decent entry llevel tables
look on audiogon for:
MMF
Pro-ject
Rega
Denon
Nottingham
you can buy a new MMF from some of the vendors that sponsor AK, its nice to have a warranty and know that it will be packed right. the MMF 2.1 is pretty inexpensive, the next model up, you can frequently find used on audiogon. however, if you buy used, be very specific on how the item will be packed, shipping TTs without orig packing MUST be done well. try BrianB at Venus, and Bob Bantz at elusive dsic, they may have a demo, or a particularly good deal. just my opinion.
good luck
tyler

Brazil! :yikes: mh, you still want to try shipping a TT? :D

Tuareg, time to revise criteria for TT. What used gear is available to you, locally? Failing that, what new pieces can be had?

Maybe our buddy Vlad can send you something! :lmao: (just kidding, Tuareg. do a search of the forum for Vlad20001 threads.)

Well, actually, if properly packed, shipping could take a while but wouldn't be something to be really worried about. :)

As for what's available locally, lately I've seen a Pioneer PL12D, Marantz 6270Q, Technics SL 2900, Technics SL 1200 and a whole variety of japanese type "S" arm turntables with no VTA and height adjustment. :(

I kinda like this one:

http://www.mercadolivre.com.br/org-img/original/MLB/022005/24665841_7673.jpg


I don't really need anything truly high-end as my system isn't up to par (integrated marantz amplifier with energy c-3 speakers, I have a better headphone rig though) but just something that I can be sure that is not killing my stylii, records and that I am not losing much.

If you liked the JVC, why not repair it? What exactly is 'dying'? It might be easier to get a new motor, for instance, if that is what you need.

Well, it is a Quartz model and it's running faster than it should most of the time (slightly, it alters pitch). And to tell you the truth, I don't feel all that good about owning a turntable which has no arm height and VTA adjustments, I always get the feeling it should be sounding better/is killing my stylii. But lately sometimes it gives up working. I don't know what is wrong and I have no one to fix it for me.

Or a new belt !?

Regards
Army

It's a Direct Drive.

Nothing against Direct Drives though, I'd be fine with a good DD with arm height and VTA adjustment.



there are several decent entry llevel tables
look on audiogon for:
MMF
Pro-ject
Rega
Denon
Nottingham
you can buy a new MMF from some of the vendors that sponsor AK, its nice to have a warranty and know that it will be packed right. the MMF 2.1 is pretty inexpensive, the next model up, you can frequently find used on audiogon. however, if you buy used, be very specific on how the item will be packed, shipping TTs without orig packing MUST be done well. try BrianB at Venus, and Bob Bantz at elusive dsic, they may have a demo, or a particularly good deal. just my opinion.
good luck
tyler


I guess the MMF 2.1 can't be a bad choice seeing as it is as complete as a budget turntable gets, right? Fully adjustable and all. Can it be called an entry level audiophile turntable?

Well, thanks everybody. I'm still rather confused.

I don't know if it fits your budget, but I have the MMF-5, one up from the 2.1

I really like it, and I don't foresee upgrading (budget constraints). I did get the Goldring 1042 cart, which is an upgrade from the stock GR1012X. If the $ work for you, FWIW, I recommend it highly, good bang for the buck.

PL-12D is a perfectly decent tt IMO. My daughter's using one with a Shure M97xe and it's more than respectable. Hardly 'audiophile' grade, but not a destroyer of records.

Do you have a height/VTA problem? Generally (for many but not all cartridge designs) if the bottom of the cartridge's parallel with the plane of the record, you are all set. It's OK to shim the cartridge to adjust this if need be... in the good old days cartridges came with shims when you bought 'em. The only drawback to this approach is you do add some moving mass.

Is your DD tt quartz controlled or is can you vary the pitch? If there's a pitch adjustment pot, it may simply need to be cleaned with contact cleaner (e.g., CAIG DeoxIt). This has happened to me before.

"Changing the motor" isn't generally practical with a DD tt, as the motor and platter are more or less integrated.

tuareg,

The technics SL-1200mk2 - mk5 is fully adjustable. I don't know about the earlier SL-1200. I am really happy with my SL-1200mk2.

- Harald

..."Changing the motor" isn't generally practical with a DD tt, as the motor and platter are more or less integrated.

You are right, of course. I failed to read the op's reference to the DD JVC.

A friend just told me he can get a Dual. He'll get me model number and pictures later, so I'll post here to hear what everyone thinks.

As for the DD JVC... it has no pitch adjustment, unfortunately. I'd probably have to open it and find how to adjust the speed... but I don't really even know how to open it to begin with.

Does the one which picture I posted look cheap/bad?

Thanks!

Check out the Goldring GR-1.

It's basically a simplified OEM version of the Rega P2 with the RB250 Tonearm and a Goldring Electra MM cart. Can be had for under $400 new.

Cheers,
Russ

IMO all the "entry level audiophile turntables" that are under $400 are cheap junk that don't deserve their reputations. An SL1200 would kick the sh-- out of all of them and last longer to boot. There are a bunch of DD and belt drive tables that were the higher end models from Japanese audio companies that are superior too. As are a good many Duals and probably every Thorens. And they all look nicer. My MMF2 looked like the cheap POS that it was and should probably have cost half what they were charging for it. It was one of the best days of my audio life when I shipped that thing off to its new owner. My CS5000 is so far superior that it isn't funny and its gorgeous too. I have seen them on Ebay for anything between $200 (black with a missing dustcover and $800 (NOS brand new in the box). I have seen nice ones go for around $300 if you catch one when there aren't a lot of bidders.

http://webpages.charter.net/rwortman2/hifi/dual.jpg

rwortman, that's one gorgeous turntable. I wish I could get one of those.

Thus far it seems that my best option is a Sl1200. It does seem pretty decent, I like its look. But a low-mass arm, which ~$100 cartridges would work well with it? The one I'm all hyped about (AT440ML) probably wouldn't, right?

I'll also post the Dual model and pictures as soon as I have the information.

Thanks everybody =)

Ed mentioned a yammie with an ortofon,. I have a nice 80s model yamaha with a nice looking ortofon low mass cart on it. It is in the original box with all original foam inserts so it should travel well. 25US plus shipping and I'll slap a Brazilian address on it. I can get model if you are interested, it's not a high priced unit but my I have a couple cheaper Yammies as my daily drivers right now and they sound fine.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (no pun intended!) :D
I would recommend a Sansui SR-838.

It replaced a MMF-5 (which I sold on ePay for more than I paid for it, used!) and I couldn't be happier. It bested the Music Hall with the 1042 upgrade, at least to my ears!

I am using the 440ML cartridge and it's a great match for it. The Audio Technica throws a wide soundstage with good palpability of instruments. The music seems to jump at you! Vocals are nice and warm, blends great with my Dynaco tube gear.

The Sansui BTW, has adjustable VTA and cartridge azimuth (on the original headshell).

The strongest points of the SR-838 is it's completely manual operation, the quartz servo DD motor for excellent speed stability and the complete absence of inner groove distortion.

One recently sold for around $160 on eBay. That's a steal compared to around $400 for a used MMF-5 (mine sold for around that figure).

The only Sansui I found around here is an SR-212. I don't really know how good it is?

All those good looking turntables are making me envious :worried:

Hey Tuareg,

Try your local sunday newspaper classifieds. There's usually a guy or two that buy stereo equipment. They then sell the gear to a list of people interested in them. They can get some very nice equipment, including tables. Prices can be high, but if in mint condition probably worth it.

I know this offhand, because I used to live in Caracas, Venezuela and by contacting one of these "resellers" I got ahold of incredibly good equipment, including a McIntosh MC275. So it doesn't hurt to try.

Another alternative is to go to estate sales. In Caracas, you could find the ads in the classifieds as well. I remember going to one and found a nice pair of Quad ESL USA Monitors!

Good luck!

crooner

Krimney: I sent you a private message.

Crooner: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll see if I can find something like that tomorrow.

Turns out the Dual is 714Q in mint condition. Is it worth it? Anyone knows this table?

Thanks again!

Here comes a new challenger!

The Denon DP-45F: (looks a little sci-fi to me, but it's all about performance)

http://www.mercadolivre.com.br/org-img/original/MLB/022005/22608975_3997.jpg

vs. the Dual 741Q (what a looker :O )

http://www.compassnet.com/concept/tables/714q.jpg

(I found this picture on the web, the actual unit is MINT)

And a Technics SL1200... this one I'm a little afraid of buying used, who knows who might have used them...

All three available locally.

Thanks :D

Tuareg,

There will be any number of proponents/opponents here for just about any decent TT. I've owned 4 Denon tables from that era and my experience has been that they are relatively easy to set-up, VERY musical with a decent cartridge installed, and absolutely bullet-proof. If the $$ is reasonable, that DP-45 would make fine music.

Here's a great inexpensive TT--

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3779237132&indexURL=1#ebayphotohosting

Another choice would be this newer version--

http://www.elpj.com/about/index.html

OK all kidding aside, here's what I use, and I'm pumped about it. It's a Technics SL J2--

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64626&item=5749840451&rd=1

Now I went to Technics a couple of decades ago in 1980 when I was doing some research on what to buy for my primary system. At that time a well-heeled audiophile review rated turntables available at that time AT ANY PRICE, and as I recall the Technics SL Q2 scored SECOND on the list! List price was about $220 without cartridge. I bought one, added an Empire EDR cartridge and stylus, and voila, what an awesome TT.

Some years later, after going through a couple of stylus' and due for a new one, I came across the SL J2 for virtual pennies. I hooked it up (with a snicker) and was thrilled with its performance. With that, I'd recommend many of the Technics TT's, no need to spend a ton of cash for performance. Your cartridge and stylus will be perhaps as or more important than the TT, so keep that in mind.

Here's a search example of Technics TT's on eBay (you'll have to sign in)--

http://search-completed.ebay.com/turntable-turn-table-technics-12-dz-dj_W0QQcatrefZC6QQfisZ2QQfromZR10QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ3Q QftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQpriceZ1QQsadisZ200QQsaprchiZ200QQ satitleZQ28turntableQ2cturnQ20tableQ29Q20technicsQ 20Q2d12Q2aQ20Q2ddzQ2aQ20Q2ddjQQsbrftogZ1QQsoZShowQ 20ItemsQQsofocusZunknownQQsojsZ0

Keep in mind shipping may cost a bit to your country...

Here's a narrow current list of Technics linear TT's, NOW AVAILABLE on eBay--

http://search.ebay.com/turntable-turn-table-technics-linear_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQ QcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsooZ2 QQfsopZ3QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsadisZ200QQsatitleZQ28tu rntableQ2cturnQ20tableQ29Q20technicsQ20linearQQsbr ftogZ1QQsofocusZunknownQQsojsZ1

There are many others listed as well, this list only contains TT's with the word 'linear' in their title. Search particular model numbers as well.

Good luck in your endeavor!

Tuareg,

There are many issues and tables up in the air in this thread. I'll try to answer some:

Cartridges for lightweight arms: Shure carts such as the V 15 VxMR (expensive) and M97xE (< $100) have high compliance and are a good match for lightweight arms.

Opinions on Dual 714Q: I have one in my basement. Looks laike a good player to me. I have yet to buy the headshell adapter plate for mounting 1/2" cartridges. It has an ultra-light-mass arm that may go well with my Shure M97xE. You can find the user manual and a service manual for the fully automatic counterpart 731Q at www.vinylengine.com.

SL-1200mk2 If you worry about previous use, it is good to know that spare parts are available at a decent price. I replaced the platter spindle and bearing on my SL-1200mk2 for $27.

Good luck in your continued search!

- Harald

P.S. Have you tried cleaning the internal potentiometers of your current turntable?

Tuareg,

There are many issues and tables up in the air in this thread. I'll try to answer some:

Cartridges for lightweight arms: Shure carts such as the V 15 VxMR (expensive) and M97xE (< $100) have high compliance and are a good match for lightweight arms.

Opinions on Dual 714Q: I have one in my basement. Looks laike a good player to me. I have yet to buy the headshell adapter plate for mounting 1/2" cartridges. It has an ultra-light-mass arm that may go well with my Shure M97xE. You can find the user manual and a service manual for the fully automatic counterpart 731Q at www.vinylengine.com.

SL-1200mk2 If you worry about previous use, it is good to know that spare parts are available at a decent price. I replaced the platter spindle and bearing on my SL-1200mk2 for $27.

Good luck in your continued search!

- Harald

P.S. Have you tried cleaning the internal potentiometers of your current turntable?


Can you take a look at your Dual and see if it has VTA and arm height? If it does than it'll probably be a toss between it and the Denon.

The AT440ML won't work well on a lightweight arm? :(

Pity, I've been looking forward to its detailed sound and ML stylus.

The SL1200 is still more expensive than either the Denon and the Dual and I am not sure wether it is better?

Thanks again,
Tarso

The AT440 will likely work fine with the SL1200 arm. Another lower priced cart that doesn't get a lot of mention is the Ortofon OM series. I had an OM10 super($50 from J and R Music) on a Dual 504 for a little while before I sold it and it sounded quite nice. I must like the Ortofon sound since my current tables are running an X5MC and 504MKII both of which I would put up against anything near their price range. The fact that I got them from Juki for nearly half price makes them unbeatable bargains. If you have never used a high end'ish cartridge and you can swing $155 plus $21 shipping the 540 will blow your mind.

Crooner -- That is one BEAUTIFUL TT!!! Is that the "piano black" finish?

It's a nice shiny acrylic material that looks just like piano black. This is actually the outer shell since the plynth as such is made of MDF composite material and wood. Very sturdy and virtually immune to footfalls and acoustic feedback. Works better than the fancy dual plynth of my now departed MMF-5!

So, to the point: I got a Concept 2QD Quartz-Lock Direct Drive TT for a BIN of $100.00 on e-Bay from "hifinut1" about 6 mos. ago and it's a BEAUTY. In addition to the Quartz DD, it also has pitch controls! And, a nice low-mass Straight Tone arm. Generally, it performs to a very high standard. Certainly, for $100.00 it qualifies as a decent entry-level "audiophile"-oriented TT.

Gorgeous turntable Vintagestereo! I bet not many were produced. I like the "modern" straight arm. I am sold on Quartz servo DD, BTW.

Well,

Anyone has any clear idea on how the Dual does against the Denon and SL1200?

I guess any of the three are entry level audiophile, right?

I TRULY like the looks of the Dual and the unit I'm looking at is MINT.

But if it's inferior to the other two or has any catch... I don't plan to upgrade for a few years now... only buy new cartridges! :)

Thanks again,
Tarso

If you can get the SL-1200MKII in Brazil, I would go for it. It has a lot of following, and parts are still available. I used to be prejudiced against it, because I was always reading the glossy mags like Stereophool and TAS...

Thing is, Direct Drive if well implemented can sound, very, very good.

Another thing to consider is resale value. If you decide to upgrade later, the Technics will hold it's value fairly well.

Yeah, actually there are a LOT of used SL1200 available.

Duals and Denons are harder to find.

So you think a good SL1200 would be better than either the Denon or the Dual?

Sigh, can't wait to buy my "new" turntable already. :)

Thanks,
Tarso

The Higher-End Denons will probably be better.
I am not very familiar with Dual. However a Dual CS5000 like rwortman's is a dream come true. Beautiful unit, and well worth owning, IMO.

If there's a lot of SL-1200s available, they could come from DJs. I would make sure they are working properly. In Discos these can get plenty of abuse.

Either vintage or current production will do.

The least expensive yet hi-fi turntable.

Maybe a Pro-ject or MMF?

Thanks

A used Thorens TD-125 Mk II is an excellent way to start.

i like it MUCH better than ebay for audio equip. its ALL audio equip. there have been some items in your category there of late.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1113099752

is one that hasnt expired yet. i dont know if the pl12d has adjustable vta. anyway, check out the 'gon frequently, youll likely strike paydirt.

I just noticed there are a couple decent Thorens on Audiogon as well. A TD-160 for $150, one hell of a deal if it's in good working order...

Anyone has any clear idea on how the Dual does against the Denon and SL1200? I guess any of the three are entry level audiophile, right?
I TRULY like the looks of the Dual and the unit I'm looking at is MINT. But if it's inferior to the other two or has any catch... I don't plan to upgrade for a few years now... only buy new cartridges! :) Thanks again, Tarso Ask TwoTransistors and StereoFisher, two of our resident Dual experts.

I've got a Dual 721 and a 606 and both perform exceptionally well....especially at the 45 degree angles I like to listen to music at! Can you post a pic? Of the listening angle, that is.