new to audio? Millerdogs guide to beginners

[millerdog]

I wanted to start this post, for not many have talked about their journey into audiophiledom. I started off with a Harman Kardon reciever, Spica speakers, and a Pioneer player. My Spicas and the Pioneer have died, hence my quest for new equipment. I layed off of hifi as I went back to school (no money), so my aquisitions have been few and far between. There has been discussions about the direction hifi is going and I think I am the perfect example. I am poor, but want to get into two channel hifi.
First of all, I wanted to get into tubes. I got my Fisher X100c for two hun and my Fisher 400 for $215(still in transit). Why did I go this way? Well I had my H/K and a vintage H/K 330a. I wanted to see the difference between ss and tubes.
Speakers? After doing the research on the web about speakers I was sure I wanted high efficiency speakers. I got the LothX BS1 from BrianB at venushifi. We are still talking about shipping.
Why the Loths? I was thinking about going SETS later and at 94db they looked good.
Cables? Well I was going to go cheap and get the AudioQuest type4s...the more I read, the more I thought of DH Labs Q10s. Yeah, $225 for an eight foot run was beyond my reach. I found some used ones for a nice price.
ICs? still open on this one. I will probably go DH labs too.
Source? again open. I will go with a cheap source like the Philips 763 for now. That is until I can afford a dedicated player.
Look upon this post as my journal into hifi sound. I can't afford some of the high end stuff you guys got, but I do have I think nice alternatives.
I do plan to review this stuff as it comes in. Any comments on my choices are welcome. I just thought it would be cool to follow my venture into hifi and to have you guys comment on it.
thanks,
md

[ProAc_Fan]

millerdog I didn't see mention of a TT? If you're gonna end up with SET you really owe it to yourself to spin some vinyl. As for your other choices they sound great to me. You're tube power and Loth's will outperform 99% of the systems out there so you should be proud of your efforts. It's nice to aspire to better gear but sometimes you've gotta just sit back and enjoy what you've got.

Mike

[Thatch_Ear]

From a man with horns he can't listen to! MD, my only caution is on cables and wires. If you are going to do tubes, especially after you move on from the Fisher gear you will want better wire. For now it isn't that big a deal as the Binding Posts and RCA plugs on the Fisher will degrade any better wire you might buy. They are after all alumininum and good wire is better. Weakest link is as high as you can climb.
Of coarse upgrading your connections on the Fishers is a great idea. Those old Fishers can really kick some butt as they are now using Zip cord. I use 16 AWG HT that is $7/100' spool to hook my Fishers up to speakers and slightly better than average ICs. I have used better but it didn't make any difference that I could hear, so the better stuff goes on the gear with the best connections.

[ProAc_Fan]

Thatch was that a little dig at ME?? :p:


Mike

[Thatch_Ear]

Well I sure can't pull one over one you, can I? Uhm, well yes it was a nudge, maybe a slight gouge, not really a dig as I won't really kick you when you are down, well not hard. Just to see if you are awake or not.
Hope you get some tubes soon buddy. Listening fatigue is very dangerous to those not ready for it.

[millerdog]

Mike,
I been thinking about vinyl for awhile. I still have about thirty albums sitting in my closet. To be honest, I didn't want to get into for when I get into something I tend to be fanatical:D

Thatch, it never occured to me the connections on the Fisher might be a bottleneck:( By the way have you looked into the spealunkers from 2baudio? I wonder if those will help as I heard the Q10s are really stiff.

Thanks for the replies:) Again, any suggestions or advice is welcome. I really am flying by the seat of my pants here and your opinions mean a lot.
md

[Kamakiri]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear
Well I sure can't pull one over one you, can I? Uhm, well yes it was a nudge, maybe a slight gouge, not really a dig as I won't really kick you when you are down, well not hard. Just to see if you are awake or not.
Hope you get some tubes soon buddy. Listening fatigue is very dangerous to those not ready for it.

He'll have tubes once I finish this 800C. I really gotta work on this Friday night.

[millerdog]

One caveat I forgot to post: tubes cost money. If you plan to roll tubes, well I got about three hun in driver tubes. Telefunkens don't come cheap. I have yet to get a quad of 7868 outputs for my Fishers which will probably set me back another hun.
SS guys save money here. Because of this, I was tempted to go vintage Marantz. I heard nice things about them. An overwhelming urge to go glass pushed me to the Fishers. Also, there was nothing in the $200-$300 range of contemporary SS amps that floated my boat. Remember I already had my H/K.
md

by the way, I traded my Outlaw PCAs plus cash for a pair of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plates. I already got four on the way.

[millerdog]

mike dammit you made me PM grumpy about some TTs!
Okay, I am trying to set things up. I don't have speaker stands; what I got are these concrete cylinders that measure 6"diameterX12" high. I stacked em two high for each channel and set them up about six feet apart.
I was looking at the Darumas, and was entranced, but decided I would go with cork on the concrete for the speaker mounts. As you can see, I am easily swayed. I don't think I'm ready for tweaks yet. I am hoping these concrete things can suffice until I get some real speaker stands. I was reading where you want the drivers at least at ear level. I might have to stack three of those concrete things to reach that.
Things are falling into place here...thanks for your input.
md

[Thatch_Ear]

Flourhound,
The fact that tubes cost money does not detract from the fact that you can really change the sound of your rig by rolling tubes. Solid State can be cheaper and easier but you will not be able to change the sound as easy as roling some tubes. Also since the tubes mostly rolled are the drivers you will build up a nice library of 12AX7s, 12AU7s, maybe 6SL7s and a few mil spec types. There are not that many commonly used driver tubes and picking up used/test strong is not that expensive. I guess your shipping will be higher, but just wait till you get that 400. Talk about a great earphone amp. To rival anything not single ended on the market for a very good price and it will drive speakers in a very nice way. Unless you get a lemon or one needing fixing the 400 reciever is really one of the best recievers made.

[millerdog]

flourhound? is that a euphemism:)
You buggah! I don't have all these tubes for nothing. Thatch, that's why I got into tubes. With SS you are stuck with the sound.
I been rolling some RCAs and GEs and Sylvies. Right now I got some RCA triple mica black plates in the driver sections. I got eight Tele smooth plates coming in.
When the 400 gets here I'll let you guys know.
thanks,
md

by the way what exactly is a flourhound? I gotta a feeling I don't really want to know:)

[ProAc_Fan]

mdog you're parking the Loth's on these concrete blocks? If they're a foot high I wouldn't suggest any more than 3 of them. I'd think that a 3' high stand should do allright with the Loths. Remember ofcourse, like you said, some people suggest getting the high frequency driver at ear level. Well considering that you're sitting down you should be fine with no more than a 3'stand. Unless of course you're Yao Ming!!


Mike

[BrianB]

Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
mdog you're parking the Loth's on these concrete blocks? If they're a foot high I wouldn't suggest any more than 3 of them. I'd think that a 3' high stand should do allright with the Loths. Remember ofcourse, like you said, some people suggest getting the high frequency driver at ear level. Well considering that you're sitting down you should be fine with no more than a 3'stand. Unless of course you're Yao Ming!!

To my ears, the ideal height for these Loth-X speakers is between 21" and 24"...

[millerdog]

BrianB,
any suggestion as to space between? Right now I got about four feet. Anymore and I would have to start moving some bookshelves.
thanks,
md

[BrianB]

Four feet is not a lot of space, but it can be made to work with these speakers. About how far back is your typical listening position?

[millerdog]

BrianB,
I think I can tweak out about another foot between them. My listening position is less than ten feet back.
Thatch, you are correct. I tested the Fisher with some cheap Straightwires and Kimber silvers coming out of an Arcam cd23. The silvers did not make that much of a difference. I mean at first they had some impact, but after about fifteen seconds it faded away. I was not blown away by them.
Thanks for all your posts guys, more as the saga continues:)
md

[millerdog]

I rolled the Telefunkens in!
First I rolled them in the gain stages..nice, precise sound. Nice! I replaced the RCA 5751 triple mica black plates.
Happy camper. Okay, I changed the GE 5 stars from the tone stages out for the Teles.
Kinda thin sounding. Hmmmmm....I put the GEs back. The bass came back.
Then I heard the Stax Omegas. Unreal. Can you say "transparent?"
So I went home and changed the tone tubes to Telefunkens too.
By the way these are all smooth plate Teles...damn...I'm okay with it so far. The bass is not as bloated as previous. What I called thin, was actually what I would call now, precise.:)
the adventure continues!
md

[millerdog]

The Fisher 400 arrived today. Merry Christmas? Well, it's not exactly in "very good" condition. I didn't realize that sucker was so big and heavy. It's at least one and a half times as heavy and wide as my X100C. The Fisher 400 is one impressive piece of iron.
This is a restoration. The receiver powers up and sounds nice, but there are some caps that seem bloated and some tubes are not seated correctly. RestoPak material.
I'm not sure how to clean the chassis, any help on this would be nice. I started with some Simple Green, and it seemed to do okay, but not like some of the restorations I've seen from you guys. How do you guys get the chassis so freakin clean and shiny? My Dremel tool is ready!
Right now I am torn between finding a better 400 and using this one for parts. Hey, at least everything works:) I smoke, and it just looks like I blew smoke on it everyday for the last ten years:(
A small set back, for I wanted this receiver in my bedroom system. I think the 400 is rated at about 18wpc and my X100C is at 25. I was going to rotate the X100C to living room duty with my hopefully refoamed and less efficient Spicas.
Again, any comments on my ideas are welcome and encouraged
:)
md

[MikE]

One caveat I forgot to post: tubes cost money

Yes, tubes can be expensive and are consumable. Though I've found that given the results are one of the most cost effective fine-tuning measures a tubeophile can invest. Remember, the retail cost of vintage tubes is driven by DEMAND not sonics. You can save alot of cash by doing your homework BEFORE selecting which tube components you use, and then choosing wisely which specific tube you buy and from whom. My very early impressions with the Emission Labs 45 tubes is that while very expensive, they wipe the floor with other devices that cost much more. YMMV.

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

You can use Mother's mag wheel polish and a Scotch Brite pad but you have to be very careful about the tube numbers getting rubbed off. Another not quite as drastic measure is to use Nu-Finish car wax and a paper towel. This will clean and polish and should leave the stenciling intact. A window cleaner and a tooth brush is good for getting into tight spots.
You can clean the bottoms of the tube pins by putting a small amount of Tarnex in a plastic cap from a soda bottle. Only enough to go half way up the pins, leave for a minute and rinse carefully with hot water and completely dry with a paper towel or old scrap of T-shirt.
To clean the pots and slide switches get the Tuner Cleaner and Lubricant from Radio Shack. It will be a red spray. After spraying out and running things back and forth wait 24 hours before plugging back in. Do not use the Tuner Cleaner that is a clear spray!

[millerdog]

Damn Thatch!
Don't ever recommend Mother's Mag polish to someone who is obsessive and compulsive:( It is working great on the fisher chassis, but I am now beginning to polish my beer cans:D
Everything has to be shiny:)
md

[millerdog]

oh wait, I missed a spot:mad:

[millerdog]

Okay:
Fisher X100C> DH Labs Q10> LothX BS1
Source: Cheap JVC DVD/CD player going into cheap ICs.
Strange, to my ears, there seems to a perfect volume that speakers are to be played. Let me rephrase: a minimum volume.
Played to low, I keep trying to "pop" my ears like on an airplane. I feel like I'm not getting all the sound. Turn up the volume a bit and all is well. The downside is that it usually is too loud for neighbors or roommates.
Whether or not you position your speakers straight on or "toe in" is up to your listening position. I used to go straight on, but after reading many speaker reviews, I tried the "toe in" position. Toe in was a term I always thought of as automobile tire alignment. Does it work with speakers? Oh yeah.
Straight out, the Loths had no real focus. Imaging sucked. Toe in about ten degrees, oh yea! Central focus, but if you move yer head side to side, you don't really lose it. As I said in my Loth review, they image like crazy.
I haven't had speakers in awhile. I'll say this: as much detail I've heard over headphones that I thought I missed; I am hearing as much detail on speakers that I heard on cans.
feel free to comment,
md

[Thatch_Ear]

You have to have the cones working fast enough to get the air to act like a spring to get the dynamics out of your speaks. Common problem.

[millerdog]

Thatch, is that revelant to ambient sounds? I mean it seems I can listen at a lower level late at night when there are no other distractions.
thanks,
md

[millerdog]

The TT is here! Hooked it up and played my new Norah Jones LP.
Ohoh! sounds like shit:( I went to the Dual site and read about setting up the arm. Cool, things sound better now. The Norah Jones still sounds horrible though, asked elusivedisc if they will exchange LPs with me.
I gotta say, the tone arm set up has been an adventure. I leaned alot from enjoythemusic.com and the Dual site. I balanced it to float then set the tracking level.
Tubes and TTs are certainly the tweakers dream. Man, so many variables; but I'm trying to keep up.
Vinyl has a warmer mid to low range and to me, rolled off highs. I liked some recordings on cd better than on vinyl and vice versa. I like bright recordings so maybe vinyl is not for me. I have been spinning alot of it in the last two days though.
One thing: clean your records! I thought my stylus was messed up until I saw the ball of dust it had picked up!
The only problem I had so far was when the right channel of my Fisher seemed to quit on me. A half hour later is was okay. I will post this problem in the tube forum to see if anyone else had this anomoly.
Not counting shipping, so far my system has cost me:
$200-Fisher integrated
$300-Loth-X speakers
$85 -Dual TT
$30 -Technics cassette deck
$90 -JVC play it all deck
$125-DH Labs Q-10 speaker cables
my system may not jam with the big boys, but compared to my old system, it blows it away:)
the adventure continues,
md

[Thatch_Ear]

Bet it sounds great. Most important your having fun, not spending big change and have a better system than most. Big time fun, and friend Miller it is just getting started. There are too many variables to ever get stuck in one place unless you want to.
By the way, fresh Mako makes the best Ceviche'.

[sasaki kojiro]

Great system MD.

Vinyl has a warmer mid to low range and to me, rolled off highs. I liked some recordings on cd better than on vinyl and vice versa.

I think that is the crux of my problem. Before building my last two systems, I took a long hiatus from audio right at the time CDs were beginning supplant vinyl. All my points of reference go back to that time. Now with every tweak and change, after an initial period of satisfaction, a sense of brightness and unaturalness always seems to creep back in.

[ProAc_Fan]

Hmm vinyl having rolled off highs seems like a strange statement to me. I haven't noticed this phenomena with my Linn TT. Theres no question the vinyl sounds "warmer" than the CD's and I can directly compare as I have both formats of most of my favorite music. From what I remember, vinyl has a broader audio range than CD's. There's no doubt in my mind there is definetly more bass in my vinyl recordings than in the same CD.Perhaps the rolled of highs are a shortcoming in your TT or speakers and not necessarially the vinyl itself.

Mike

[millerdog]

Mike, cds have brighter highs than the LPs I'm listening to. I think I'll get a new cart, probably a Grado Red. I don't really want to spend more on a cart than I did on the table. Most of my comments were based on listening through Grado SR325 cans.
I think I really must spend more on a cleaning system other than the Allsop. The DiscDoctor and some other cleaners look nice. I don't think I'm ready for a dedicated cleaner though.
sk, I'm still on the fence. For whatever reason, some LPs sound great! Better than the cd version. Some sound veiled:( I'm wondering if it's the quality of my TT and cart that makes it so. I didn't post this, but listening to your Quicksilver monoblocks really got me thinking is this direction:)
Thatch, your help has been invaluable to me.
I sold some of my pottery and have come into some funds. I will be upgrading some part of this system.
the adventure continues!
md

[BrianB]

Originally posted by millerdog
Strange, to my ears, there seems to a perfect volume that speakers are to be played. Let me rephrase: a minimum volume.
Played to low, I keep trying to "pop" my ears like on an airplane. I feel like I'm not getting all the sound. Turn up the volume a bit and all is well. The downside is that it usually is too loud for neighbors or roommates.

millerdog, I'd bet anything that your amp is the culprit here - at least more so than the Loth-X speakers. I've heard lots of amps that didn't begin to sound really good until the volume control had been turned up to a certain level. And remember, the BS1s are MUCH more sensitive than your previous speakers, meaning that you don't need to turn up the volume on your amp nearly as much to reach the same level of loudness.

Using my own Consonance Cyber-10 integrated SET amp, the Loth-X BS1s were fantastic late-night speakers. Even at very low listening levels, their tonality and soundstaging was superb...

[millerdog]

Brian, I am seriously considering the Cyber 10 or 30. I emailed you on this and you can post here for your reply. I am sure others want to know how you feel they will fit into my system.
My plan is to put my Fisher down for restoration. I don't come into this kind of cash very often, so I think it's time to step up to the plate. I thought of the Zen, and the Paramours; yeah if I go that route I could also afford a source. But to me, source ain't nothing compared to the amp. THis is my chance to get into SETS, and I want to take advantage of it.
Again, comments are welcome.
thanks,
md

[BrianB]

Hi millerdog,

Well, I like these little Consonance Cyber-series amps a lot. Both the Cyber-10 and the Cyber-30 would work extremely well with the Loth-X BS1 - indeed, the Cyber-10/BS1 combination is named as part of one of my "Recommended Systems" on my website (www.venushifi.com).

The nice thing about the Cyber-10 is that it is very flexible - you can use lots of different output tubes (KT88, EL34, etc.), and you can switch between ultralinear mode (12 watts) and triode mode (6 watts). Plus, it makes for a very nice headphone amp.

On the downside, this "integrated" SET amp has only one set of inputs. Since a lot of folks have a single primary source component (usually a CD player), this is often not an issue. However, it's something to consider if you have more than one source component (CD player, turntable, etc.)...

[millerdog]

Thanks Brian,
I guess that would mean a switching box here. Come to think about it, I would need a tape loop too.
Time to rethink this whole thing:)
md

[millerdog]

Okay audio fans, how this:
Bottlehead Paramours fed by a Mapletree Audio Design Octal 6?
The MAD Octal 6 seems like the only pre with a record/tape loop in my price range.
Comments or other suggestions? Remember, funds are limited:)
thanks,
md

[Thatch_Ear]

I didn't think that the Octal 6 had a phono stage in it MD. I was looking at that myself. Not trying to say no, but take a closer look and make sure it is right. You can always use the phono stage in your Fisher and run it through something else from the tape outs or maybe some other way.

[millerdog]

thatch,
No, the octal 6 doesn't have a phono stage. I was thinking of running the Bottlehead Seduction through the passive stage of the Octal.
You know, that's interesting about the Fisher! You think I could use the tape out to feed the Paramours?
md

[Thatch_Ear]

You could tape out to a preamp but not directly to the Paramours. The tape out can not be controled with the Fishers pre, but you could take advantage of the phono section of the Fisher in this manner. The only downside to this is the extra ICs you have to use. It certainly is woth trying out. The Octal 6 looks to be a very good piece of gear.

[millerdog]

The Paramour kits are here. There's much more to think about than just the soldering. One, what color are you going to paint the cover plate and transformers? Two, the wood finish, and if you want to alter it, what are you going to do? A trip to the hardware store is vital before you start this kit.
By the way, I already got some Tele 12AT7s on the way and have the Sovtek 2A3 in the tube box.
Now, comes the IC part. I got a line on a SS preamp, and wonder how much diff the ICs will make. I am thinking of going silver.
md

[Thatch_Ear]

<www.audioreview.com/Cables/Chimera,Laboratories,Series,II,Interconnects/PRD_136061_1584crx.aspx>

[millerdog]

The Paramours are up and running!
Thanks so much to Sixcats! for making me a deal on a PS Audio preamp. It works fine and sounds wonderful.
Sound? Like a slight veil has been lifted from the music, especially the vinyl. My records sound clear and bright. I think something was wrong with my Fisher for it favored the left channel also.
I really didn't believe I would hear that much of a difference going to SETs. Even my cds sound better:)
Now, I just gotta change out some ICs and I should be good to go.
The Paramours are five paws out of a millerdog possible four!
Next up: Digital Source
md

[millerdog]

A post script:
The soundstage moved up. The music "appears" now in front of me and the speakers. Headroom? infinite...
I still can't believe this:eek: There aren't the subtle things that make you relisten any more. These things are more uh...how can I say.....unreal?
Now, I feel the singer is singing to me:) Vocals feel that close! Instruments are now in the background; there is a 3d effect that wasn't there compared to the Fisher. There is depth to the music. How did the soundstage change? I have no idea, but it did. Well fook me!:rolleyes: I would have never believed it.
Man, do I feel stupid:( The difference is obvious. Trust me:D

[Thatch_Ear]

The "difference" has to heard in your room to be really appreciated. Be glad about having gone the PP route 1st though. I think it makes the real epiphany of SET that much more remarkable because you have already been through the "These speakers or phones sound so different with the tubes than they did SS" phase and the need for efficiany stage.
Welcome to the club. Your life will never be the same. It is like getting a good pull on a 20 lbs cylinder for the first time. Having that thing up past your elbow is something you just can't really explain. ;)

[millerdog]

Thatch,
I know what you mean. I was just listening to "Darkness at the Edge of Town" and thought about the sound. With my old system, I'd be thinking "damn, my stereo sounds good!" Now, it's more like "man, the music sounds unreal."
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not hearing the equipment anymore:)
I'm not hearing the amp, or the speakers. I'm not trying to hear how they sound; I can't anymore. It was revelation time today.
Thanks to all who read this thread and encouraged me.:D
By the way, I can crank up eight pounds to mid bicep;)
md