Zenith's demise.

[stereofisher]

Anyone know of the final days of Zenith Corp? Its really sad we let so many US companies fail by not protecting them from subsidizied foreign labor. It was unfair. So many workers lost thier jobs needlessly :sigh: We have let far too many companies fall needlessly.

Any one here know know the history of Zenith from say 1980 to when they sold what was left to Goldstar--yech!? We really need an administration with enough balls to put tarriffs on the cheap stuff coming here. Goldstar is slowly ruining the home appliance business. They are stealing patented designs from Maytag and Whirlpool. Korea has no laws on copy rights or patents. We need to start protecting whats left of US business against unfair business practices.

Sorry for the vent. Its too bad our companies have given up :thumbsdn: I miss Zenith, RCA, Motorola, etc. Both radio and TV.

Eric

[Sandy G]

Oh, it gets better all the time, pal. Last year, my uncle read in the "Wall Street Journal" there is virtually NOTHING made in the good ol' USA anymore that can't be made much cheaper in the Land of Yellow Peril. My dad's in cahoots w/this little farm machinery mfger in Texas, they got an inquiry from John Deere to make a part they've designed for JD. So we sent JD 2 of them, never heard back. Guarantee JD sent the parts to China, to see what they can be made for over there, which will prolly be 30% underneath our cost. It's a cryin' shame-pretty soon, there won't be any manufacturing base left in this country, at the rate we're going now. We thought Japan, Inc. was tough back in the '80s-the Chinese make them look like a Sunday-school picnic !!-Sandy G.

[sydsfloyd67]

I recall 'Zenith Radio Coporation" in Chicago. Correct? Chicago was a good place to grow up in in terms of radio through the 60-70-80s. WXRT may still even exist today. :)

-sf

[sydsfloyd67]

-and I heard Zenith was the last to manufacturer a television built in the US. IFIC, this had something to do with the Thompson Consumer Electronic Corp in Bloomington IN in the early 90s (true or false?)
-sf

[heathkit tv]

There are actually quite a few TV plants operating in this country and at least one, maybe two that build private label sets.

The irony of the chinese mass production miracle is that they best us without firing a shot.....and they used the free market capitalist system to do it!! Do NOT get me started!!!!

Anthony

[OvenMaster]

Last I'd heard, Zenith had been taken over by Gold Star after bankruptcy troubles. There IS an American owned TV manufacturer in Kentucky, I believe, which makes sets for various famous brand names. If they'd not fought and won a federal lawsuit accusing Chinese manufacturers of dumping their products, even this company would have folded. I saw this on a PBS special about Wal-Mart about two months ago.

Tom

http://www.zenith.com/sub_about/about_corp_history.html

[heathkit tv]

That's who I was referring to......also saw that same PBS show.

What's even more frightening is that there are only a couple of machine tool companies left in America....South Bend Lathe who once employed thousands now has about a dozen people on staff.

DISGUSTING

*EVERY*thing is based on machine tools---this is the answer to the chicken and the egg....if you don't have machine tools then you're back to a purely manual agriculture based society.

Anthony

[asynchronousman]

I recall 'Zenith Radio Coporation" in Chicago. Correct? Chicago was a good place to grow up in in terms of radio through the 60-70-80s. WXRT may still even exist today. :)

-sf

Zenith doesn't nor do it's following incarnations own any US broadcasting stations...foreign owned. Before you get started on NBC/Universal, Universal has always been an American company with foreign subsidiaries and I do beleve Viviendi sold to Universal...please correct me if I'm wrong.

US 99, as the spot on the Zenith radios supposedly denotes, probably exists as something at that frequency, but not an arm of Zenith.

[sydsfloyd67]

There are actually quite a few TV plants operating in this country ....Anthony

Where, and what set/brand is that?
thanks

-sf

[asynchronousman]

I was only aware of Sony's plants but I'd suspect another Eastern giant has plants too.

[maxm]

Zenith stopped making thair Black and White TVs here in the 70s, moving production to Taiwan. Some of their color TVs began to be assembled in Mexico in the early 80s, but they continued to make their consoles, CRTs, and a few table models here. I believe that Toshiba or Sharp may be assembling TVs here. Most of those big projection TVs are made in America.

[Yamaha B-2]

Sony used to make color TVs in S.CA. Then moved to Mexico. They can't even compete in Mexico. Moved back to Asia. But, the Japanese are in about the same boat that we are. Except for the very high-end stuff, they can't afford to make in Japan, either. What goes around comes around. If we can survive. Chinese (both of them) and Korea, etc., are simply too cheap and too good. With everything being automated they only need to train folks as drones. Worker-bees.

Last company I was with in TX is making money hand-over-fist at the moment. Not because they are so good (but, since I built the place and ran it for the first five years, how could they be anything else :D ) but because the exchange rate on the dollar makes our high-tech goods very cheap overseas. And we made double-side polished wafers and special epi wafers, so are in somewhat of a nitch market. But, in the long-run, they won't last, either. Will simply be overwhelmed by the cheap labor in Asia once they decide to attack the market. Nothing new under the sun.

[Sandy G]

I'll bet a dollar to a donut within 5 years-10 at the outside- we'll see Chinese made cars here. Sure, they'll be shit at first-but they'll soon get the hang of it. They may even be Cadillacs. Yep, GM is reputedly gonna build a plant over there to make Caddys-they sell that many over there & figure the potential market is nearly limitless. Only real problem is that China doesn't have much of a modern road network-yet. China's insatiable demand for cars is one major thing that's got gas prices so high here-and it ain't gonna get much better, I'm afraid.-Sandy G.

[cmonty]

I fear you will win that bet even sooner. I recall a news report about a Chinese car that is supposed to show up here in about 18 months. Something in the same league as the old Yugo.

[bgadow]

Yeah, they are building Buicks over there now, but not importing them here yet. But the engine in one of the new Chevy's is made in China. There is a company working on bringing a Chinese car here very soon if they can jump it through all the hoops.

I was in a lowbuck discount store today, they had Orion 27" tv sets with American flags on them. I didn't bother walking over to see if they were a)made in the us b)rebuilt in the us (store sells lots of rebuilt stuff). It would seem like the easiest thing to do would be to import the boards from China then make the crt and cabinet here and throw it all together. Since those components are just empty boxes really why ship them around the globe? And not much labor to slap them together. But with a smaller set, 13" certainly, they are compact enough to just ship the whole works.

Saw a 13" color Zenith that looked to be c.1980 and it had an address on the back of Missouri.

My understanding is that Zenith mfg. is all gone, Thompson left in the late 90s, but that NAP is still running to some extent, maybe just big screens, down in Knoxville?

[heathkit tv]

Sony I believe was the first foreign maker to build sets in the US...originally in lovely downtown Compton CA (unsafe even at noon time). They then moved to the former VW assembly plant in Pennsy....not sure if they're still there, but last I heard they were building projection and large screen high end stuff there.

I don't recall specifically, but I think Philips, Panasonic maybe JVC build sets here (or perhaps did so until recently). Bonus points to the first person to correctly identify what JVC stands for and why (what the corporate connection is)

Anthony

[asynchronousman]

Not RCA Victor but Victor i.e. Victrola IIRC originally Victor Talking Machines but I don't know how the "-ola" part came about. Weren't there "Amberola" records?

[asynchronousman]

BTW I think the first Sony plant of real note was in San Diego (makes sense as there are docks there and Mexico is next door).

[asynchronousman]

Sorry for the vent. Its too bad our companies have given up :thumbsdn: I miss Zenith, RCA, Motorola, etc. Both radio and TV.

Eric

I do too, but I rejoice that Micron kicks butt and takes names here in the Treasure Valley.

They're not dead though--I'm keeping them in jars on shelves in my living room :scratch2: Perhaps someday somebody will find speakers marked "Asynchronous" in their attic...

[sydsfloyd67]

I don't recall specifically, but I think Philips, Panasonic maybe JVC build sets here (or perhaps did so until recently). Bonus points to the first person to correctly identify what JVC stands for and why (what the corporate connection is) AnthonyA.,
Thanks. Almost missed the answer amid the static. NAP in Knoxville then? JVC, Japanese Video Corporation (Not Nippon Electronics Coproration) is building TVs in the US? 'American' company building TVs in the US was what i thought i recalled regarding Zenith and Thompson being the last (in Bloomington IN around '93).

-sf

[maxm]

Zenith had another plant in Missouri in the 80s, it seems like they made mostly little 13" color sets there, I have one of them.

[asynchronousman]

I don't know where that version of the acronym JVC comes in, but they still built "Victor" components at the last I checked for domestic and maybe Eurasian sale. YMMV

[Jeffhs]

I recall 'Zenith Radio Coporation" in Chicago. Correct? Chicago was a good place to grow up in in terms of radio through the 60-70-80s. WXRT may still even exist today. :)

-sf

Yes, WXRT is still around in Chicago, as "93XRT" FM. I live in Ohio, but I know some things about WXRT as I frequent 100000watts.com and have been interested in radio as long as I can remember (I am also an amateur radio operator, having held a ham license since 1972). Chicago also had a station known as WMAQ-FM, which became, in order, WNIS-FM (the Chicago affiliate of NBC's short-lived National News and Information Service news network, which was active briefly in the '70s) and then, IIRC, WKQX-FM101.1, the calls it now holds. (WMAQ-AM670 was an all-news station briefly in the late '90s, before going all-sports as WSCR-670 "The Score".) WMAQ-FM became WKQX after NBC was sold to General Electric. WMAQ-AM-FM (and all other NBC-operated radio stations) were sold to Emmis Communications after the original NBC network was sold.

[heathkit tv]

JVC is or was Japanese Victor Corp (company?) and was indeedy part of the Victor company---which itself was an offshoot of RCA (if memory serves).

Anthony

[asynchronousman]

JVC is or was Japanese Victor Corp (company?) and was indeedy part of the Victor company---which itself was an offshoot of RCA (if memory serves).

Anthony

Actually, Victor goes back to maybe 1901 and the Radio Corporation was formed during WWI as a patent pool safeguard measure to protect them from the enemy. Westinghouse, General Electric and AT&T IIRC were the founders and it was later spun off the satisfy trade laws. AT&T was out BEFORE selling the network that became NBC in 1926.

The net had a gorgeous studio complex right there in San Fransisco for several years, and SF was the hub there for recreating the shows for the western audiences.

[sydsfloyd67]

I hear of WXRT Chicago periodically still, even though I've been just out of range for quite some time now. They were doing an amazing mixture of music when what is now called "classic rock" was maintstream pop through the 70s. (Connection for me to the thread is Zenith->Chicago->Radio, although as asynchro has pointed out, that seems to have been a paper tiger in the name "Zenith Radio Corporation" that one finds on the paper labels on the bottom of so many of those outstanding little plastic boxes.)

-sf

Yes, WXRT is still around in Chicago, as "93XRT" FM. I live in Ohio, but I know some things about WXRT as I frequent 100000watts.com and have been interested in radio as long as I can remember (I am also an amateur radio operator, having held a ham license since 1972). Chicago also had a station known as WMAQ-FM, which became, in order, WNIS-FM (the Chicago affiliate of NBC's short-lived National News and Information Service news network, which was active briefly in the '70s) and then, IIRC, WKQX-FM101.1, the calls it now holds. (WMAQ-AM670 was an all-news station briefly in the late '90s, before going all-sports as WSCR-670 "The Score".) WMAQ-FM became WKQX after NBC was sold to General Electric. WMAQ-AM-FM (and all other NBC-operated radio stations) were sold to Emmis Communications after the original NBC network was sold.

[Chad Hauris]

The Victor Talking Machine company was acquired by RCA in the late 1920's or possibly early 30's, thereafter the RCA-Victor trademark began to be used.

The Nipper trademark and the phrase "His Master's Voice" is licensed to different companies in different countries...if you look at EMI records from England, they use (or used, at least) Nipper and His Master's voice: likewise in Japan I believe JVC (Japanese Victor Corp) still uses the Nipper trademark...however any of these companies is forbidden from using the Nipper trademark on any items imported to U.S.A., likewise Thomson, G.E. or BMG, or the former RCA corp. (licensees of Nipper for USA) cannot use the Nipper trademark on exports. You will sometimes see Nipper on the back of modern RCA TV sets to help keep the trademark rights alive, even when Nipper is not used on the front panel logo.

[Jeffhs]

RCA was still using the Nipper logo on the front panels of its televisions of late-'70s-'80s vintage, but had dropped the original logo by the '90s. RCA (Thomson) still uses Nipper today as a standalone logo, with the addition of a smaller dog, Chipper, next to him. (This logo may be found on Thomson's web site, www.rca.com, as well as on instruction manuals for Thomson-built RCA TVs and A/V gear.) Nice touch, and an excellent way to bring an already well-known trademark into the 21st century. GE did the same thing when it decided to retain the NBC peacock after it bought out RCA in the mid-'80s. The new peacock was and is much smaller than the original logo (and there is no announcement--"The following program is brought to you in living color on NBC"--preceding the newer symbol as there was with the original, but then again there is no need for an announcement these days, as NBC's programming is 100 percent color now). And how about the mess NBC found itself in (at least at first) when it brought out its "N" logo? Turns out this logo was the property of the Nebraska educational television network. NBC was able to make a deal with the Nebraska network, however, which allowed NBC to retain the "N" symbol. The deal included NBC's selling the Nebraska network some $100-thousand-plus worth of equipment.

NBC still uses the old "G-E-C" chimes, although today they are probably computer-generated. As with RCA's modern Nipper/Chipper logo, the computer-generated NBC chimes, used with the modern, smaller peacock, add a nice touch, retaining a sound which had been familiar to NBC radio listeners for generations (until the original NBC radio network was disbanded and sold in the mid-'80s) and which accompanied the NBC "snake" logo in the '60s and '70s, as well as being heard between programs in the network's early TV days, not to mention retaining the peacock, which is still as much a part of NBC today as it was in 1956, three years after the network began telecasting in color.

NBC may be broadcasting (satellite up- and downlinking might be more appropriate terms these days, as all TV networks now use satellites, rather than telephone lines and miles of coaxial cables as in earlier times, to transmit their programs to their affiliates) in stereo, high-definition, etc. these days to keep up with the times, but the decision by GE to retain the peacock and those nice G-E-C chimes (which stood for "General Electric Company" as well as the musical scale notes G, E and C) shows that the network is still very proud of its heritage (its roots, so to speak).

I was not aware that the HMV (His Master's Voice)/Nipper logo was still being used in Japan (by JVC) and even in England. The copyright laws must be very strict as far as the use of that logo is concerned, if it cannot be used on products made by Thomson, et al. which are exported to Japan and other countries and vice-versa. I guess they are every bit as concerned with intellectual property rights there as our manufacturers are here in the United States (what few of them are left).

[Chad Hauris]

There was a short window of time where Nipper was used on the front panel of RCA equipment in conjunction with the RCA block letter logo...seems like just from 79 or 80 till 83 or so...Nipper was removed due to some copyright dispute due to the complicated copyright issues surrounding this trademark.

There was also similar copyright issues surrounding the trademark "Columbia" records...when Columbia records were exported, they had to be called "CBS" records as there are different owners of the "Columbia" trademark in different countries...I believe Denon is the Japanese Columbia licensee.

[peverett]

Motorola is still around making cellphones, police radios, and automtive controls systems in the US.

Several chip manufacturers, Freescale (spun off from Motorola), TI, Intel, and IBM all have manufacturing plants in the US. Some of the parts from these plants go into items such as TVs, stereos, and even cars that are produced in Asia.

Samsung and TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) also have chip manufacturing plants in the US.

Electronics manufacturing is definitely limping in the US, but not quite dead.

[Yamaha B-2]

There are many others, as well. Atmel, LSI Logic, National Semiconductor, Medtronic, etc. But, chips have become dominated by computer design and automated fabrication. And 12" wafers. All this makes for a poor employment environment. And people, other than engineers (which we do a poor job of turning out - no one wants to work that hard today) don't need all that much education to do the routine tasks now required in semiconductor manufacturing, where I worked as an engineer until 2000. With the new paradigm, it is very difficult to compete with the Chinese.

[peverett]

You are correct in that most of the work is done (in both design and manufacturing) by computers. I do the design work day in and day out It is all done with computers.

I am not sure that most electronic manufacturing jobs ever required great skill. Wiring up TV or radio chassis does not seem to me to require any more skill than working in a modern chip fabrication line. The skill was always in the design(of the part and the manufacturing process) , testing, and servicing.

Mostly because of so much integration and cost reduction in modern electronics, the service side is now almost completely dead for consumer items

You are very correct in saying that it is very hard to compete with the Chinese. Another reason that we do not turn out any more engineers than we do is that bright students see engineers being laid off at 50. They then turn to being doctors and lawyers so they will not have to put up with that crap. (I want to strangle all of the CEOs who come out complaining that we do not graduate enough engineers-most of them are part of the problem).

AMD also has manufacturing in the US.

[Jeffhs]

Zenith had another plant in Missouri in the 80s, it seems like they made mostly little 13" color sets there, I have one of them.

I have a 19" Zenith color set, new in 1995, which was assembled in Mexico, but the company was still in the Chicago area as "Zenith Electronics Corporation" of Glenview, Illinois. I had another Zenith color set in the '80s which had a label on the back clearly proclaiming "Zenith Electronics Corporation" in Missouri (don't recall the city off the top of my head). I also had a Zenith four-mode stereo system with 8-track, etc., in the early eighties which was built for Zenith in Korea by an unnamed electronics firm.

IMO, I think Zenith as we used to know it actually disappeared years before they sold out to Gold Star, given the fact that much of Zenith's audio gear was made offshore by the '80s (my 1980 Zenith R-70 AM/FM radio was made in Korea, also, to the standards of Zenith in Chicago, and my H-480 AM/FM stereo Zenith clock radio [also 1980 vintage] was built in Taiwan) and their televisions were being made offshore by then as well (yes, even their fabulous System 3 color consoles, but the ones built in the '70s must have still been made half decently; I have a friend whose parents owned a System 3 console set with remote and had it 15 years before it finally conked out--they replaced it with a 25" RCA "Guide Plus" set that went all of two years before the CRT blew, but that's another story).

Every new Zenith TV I've owned since the late '70s was actually built either in Mexico or offshore. The only American-made Zenith radios I own anymore, however, are my H511Y (1951) and my Royal 1000-1 TO (Zenith's first transistorized T/O; mine was probably one of the first, built by the original Zenith Radio Corporation in Chicago), not to mention a wood-cased K-731 AM/FM set from 1963. You can be sure I'll hold on to these three radios, as they are pieces of Zenith history the likes of which we will never see again. I like the design, sound and the superb build quality of the R-70 as well, so that one will be a "keeper" also. Had the dickens of a time finding a replacement for a missing battery box for my T/O (finally found one a couple months ago at John Kendall's Vintage Electronics of suburban Baltimore, on his website), but it was worth it for a radio so well built and which sounds every bit as good as a good table set.

[Yamaha B-2]

I am not sure that most electronic manufacturing jobs ever required great skill.

AMD also has manufacturing in the US.I would disagree. Back when the techs running the process tools had to know when to tweak and whatever. How to measure results by hand and work with the "hands-on" engineers to correct. Highly skilled individuals with real process knowledge.

I was the project manager for the multi-million upgrade of AMD Fabs 10, 14 & 15 in Austin back in 1989. At that time AMD was the largest maker of the 286 (more than Intel, who had moved on to the 386). Ratty old Fab 10 had much better yields than Fabs 14 & 15. Because they had the skilled techs running the processes. My, how time flies.

[peverett]

Time does fly-I am still in Austin, working for Freescale (spun off from Motrola). Our newest fab was built in the mid 1990s. It seems that AMDs new fabs are built in Germany these days.

The newest fab in Austin now was built by Samsung of Korea. It is my understanding that TI, Intel, and IBM are all building new fabs in the US, so some activity is underway.

Of course, this does not have anything to do with the demise of Zenith. Back on this subject, I did see a PBS special quite a few years ago that claimed that the beginning if the demise of US TV/radio manufacturers was when Sears imported Japanese sets at below manufacturing cost in the early 1970s. The US manufacturers sued the Japanese for dumping and won, but by then it was too late. At present time, even Japan is to expensive for TV/radio manufacturing, so it has also bypassed them.

I have a working 12" Sears color tv from 1971 and it was made in Japan. I have have also discovered that Curthis Mathis was importing Japanese electronics for their comsumer items at this time also.

[andy]

Until about two years ago Corning was making CRT glass in my town. They closed the plant and moved all the equipment to China. It was just recently torn down.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/11874769.htm

[Bobby4244]

(I want to strangle all of the CEOs who come out complaining that we do not graduate enough engineers-most of them are part of the problem


you are so very correct. Lets get rid of all those idiots in Washington at the same time. Seems that the whole world and a lot of our own elected are trying to make us go broke . Self interest seems to be the problem. As for me, I am proud of what americans have done in the past. In lew of self. For example , how about Armstrong? He was a smart cookie and he gave up all his patents in WW II for the sake of the USA/. In the end, RCA screwed him.
Its a darn shame. All cause of greed. I am not rich but I am content!

[sydsfloyd67]

(I want to strangle all of the CEOs who come out complaining that we do not graduate enough engineers-most of them are part of the problem.............You are so very correct. Lets get rid of all those idiots in Washington at the same time. Seems that the whole world and a lot of our own elected are trying to make us go broke . Self interest seems to be the problem. As for me, I am proud of what americans have done in the past. In lew of self. For example , how about Armstrong? He was a smart cookie and he gave up all his patents in WW II for the sake of the USA/. In the end, RCA screwed him.
Its a darn shame. All cause of greed. I am not rich but I am content!Right on. A paradigm shift is urgently needed. We may well look back at this period in history with amazement about how far an ecomonic lead we squandered by allowing short-sighted self-interest to become almost a religion. (Has that happened yet?) -sf

'Can't make it here any more

[truetone36]

Sanyo is still manufacturing t.v.'s and other electronics in the U.S. They have a plant in Forrest City, AR. which is about 16 miles from my home.

Dumont- First with the finest in television.

[Keefla]

Sanyo is still manufacturing t.v.'s and other electronics in the U.S. They have a plant in Forrest City, AR. which is about 16 miles from my home.


And it would seem that for the most part Sanyo TV's as of late arent that bad reliability wise. I know several people who got the "walmart special" Sanyo's ranging from 19" (my father) up to 32 inches and they are all between 3 and 10 years old. the 32 incher being the 10 year old one. Picture is very clear and the colors look quite good. I dunno, they dont seem that bad for what it is. And to be made in america is kinda cool too.
From their website:
SANYO MANUFACTURING CORPORATION

Established 1976 - Forrest City, Arkansas
SANYO Manufacturing Corporation produces SANYO and FISHER brand color television sets for retailers around the world. In 1993, SANYO Manufacturing Corporation was one of the first US manufacturers to begin exporting televisions to Japan. The current product line ranges from 13" through 36" screen sizes and offers a wide variety of feature packages.

Among the most frequently purchased brands in America, SANYO Manufacturing Corporation televisions are deemed by consumer reporting publications as high performers with excellent repair history ratings. Reviews like these testify to the high quality craftsmanship that SANYO Manufacturing Corporation is known for. SANYO Manufacturing Corporation's television assembly plants in Arkansas have constructed a new state-of-the-art production line to meet the needs of a growing market.

[YamahaFreak]

I have a friend whose parents owned a System 3 console set with remote and had it 15 years before it finally conked out--they replaced it with a 25" RCA "Guide Plus" set that went all of two years before the CRT blew, but that's another story).
I still have a Zenith Space Command 25" console, and it has one of the best pictures of any TV's I own. It's at least 25 years old. I play my NES and SNES on it.

[Jeffhs]

I still have a Zenith Space Command 25" console, and it has one of the best pictures of any TV's I own. It's at least 25 years old. I play my NES and SNES on it.

It's difficult, in fact almost impossible, to say why your SC is still going strong after 25+ years, while my friend's folks' System III console gave up after 15. :dunno: Theirs went West because of a power supply problem, I think, but that can happen to any TV, even brand new ones. They had even worse trouble with the RCA Guide Plus set that replaced the Zenith (CRT burned out after just two years), but that's so easy to explain it's ridiculous. By 1990 RCA branded TVs were being manufactured by Thomson, using CRTs of questionable reliability. My own CTC185, bought new when I moved here six years ago, still has its original CRT and makes a beautiful picture on the cable system here in my town. I guess it depends on whether you get a set with a good CRT. I have been told, here at AK, that in general the CRTs used in Thomson-built RCAs are very troublesome, but if you are lucky enough to get one with a good tube, it will last years without giving one bit of trouble. However, the 1990s-vintage RCA/Thomson sets had quite a bit of trouble with the ground points around the on-board tuner. If these were not resoldered properly early on, the jungle IC could lose its programming due to noise getting into the chip, which in turn would have been caused by shaky connections at those ground points. I had my RCA repaired for a tuner problem shortly after I purchased the set; the work was done in my apartment, so I was able to see what the technician was doing. He not only fixed the problem I called him for (RF port snapped off the tuner PC board), but he also resoldered every joint around the tuner. If he hadn't done the latter, my TV wouldn't have lasted anywhere near six years (going on seven as I write this).

Your Zenith was manufactured several years before the company left Chicago and went to Korea, which explains why it's still giving you good service after 25+ years. I have a 19" Sentry II Zenith of 1995 vintage that still works well and still has its original CRT. This amazes me, since 1995 is right in the middle of the time frame during which Zenith was having so much trouble with the CRTs in their sets.

I shudder to think what the reliability record of LG's flat-panel HD sets must be. I do know, however, that I would never buy a new TV with the lightning-bolt "Z" on it nowadays. That symbol is just a marketing icon; it means absolutely nothing. LG is simply using it on their televisions to protect their intellectual property rights to the symbol. The guts are still the same low-quality garbage found in LG and many other TVs made offshore today. (I hear even some Sonys are made offshore by another Korean electronics firm.) Unfortunately, however, this is nothing new. I bought an off-brand 12-inch portable TV when I graduated high school 30.5 years ago (1975). The set lasted all of three years before giving up the ghost (I turned it on one afternoon and saw a plume of smoke rising from the circuit board; something had shorted in there). I pitched the off-brand set and bought a Zenith solid-state B&W portable the next day; the new Zenith lasted 22 years without giving me one bit of trouble--nice sharp bright picture, good sound, and good reception with a monopole antenna in the near-fringe area where I lived at the time. I got rid of it in 2000 only because of space limitations when I moved. I also had two Zenith 13" color portables, one 1979 vintage, one 1982, that also gave me excellent service. Again, the only reason I gave them up when I moved was the space problem, which I have described in other posts.

I can only hope those sets went to good homes and didn't wind up in the landfill :eek: (I wasn't even living at my former residence in late 1999; my dad's widow cleaned out the house and later sold it after I left, so I have no way of knowing what happened to those TVs), as they were still working very well, with the 1979 set (Zenith L1310C) having only tuner issues (the detents were shot on both the VHF and UHF tuners). These sets made excellent pictures, however, and were built very solidly...well, at least the 1982 set that replaced the L1310C was; I wouldn't say the '1310 was made all that solidly if the detents on both tuners quit after only a few years. The reason for the 1310's successor's long life (at least 20 years) with no tuner drive train problems was probably that the set had one-knob electronic tuning; once the UHF stations were set up and the channel number tabs installed, the UHF tuning was ordinarily forgotten as was the VHF fine tuning (this set had switchable AFC, but the instruction manual suggested switching the AFC on and leaving it on after properly fine-tuning all stations in the user's area).

I know nothing lasts forever, but anything one pays a good deal of money for should last at least a few years. Time was when you could buy a TV set, for example, and it would last 15-20 years or more. Today's sets, by contrast, even the flat-panel HD sets, are throwaways and generally do not last longer than a couple years, often giving up the ship immediately after or shortly after the warranty expires. I'm not making this up; I have read right here in these AK forums of new TVs made by such formerly respected companies as RCA, Zenith, Magnavox, et al. which come in for repair service, only to have the technician find that the set has developed some very costly repair problem. In many cases the warranty may have just expired or else, if it is still in force, does not cover the problem being repaired. Another common situation is the TV with some years (5, 10 or more) on it that comes into the shop with a very severe problem such as a burned-out CRT, flyback, etc. that will cost more than the set is worth (or what the owner paid for it when it was new) to be repaired. These sets are generally pitched immediately, or at least as soon as the owner gets the repair estimate, as it is not cost-effective for the customer to have it repaired; for what the customer would pay to have the old one repaired, he or she could buy a brand-new set. With the change to digital TV coming in about three years, many people are getting rid of their perfectly good analog CRT sets (I see them all the time on ebay, at dirt-cheap BIN prices and very low starting bids--some as low as one penny) and replacing them with flat-panel plasma/LCD HD sets. It just makes sense, especially since, even though analog CRT TVs will work with digital signals using a converter box between the cable and the set, they will not produce a HD picture. However, as I said, at this stage of their development, HD flat-panel sets are still prone to repair problems that often show up just after the warranty expires. Heaven forbid an owner of a HDTV flat-panel set would have trouble with the video driver ICs in his/her new set. The ICs are actually molded into the ribbon cable going between the panel and the chassis, so if the chips go West for any reason, the entire panel must be replaced. This is probably why so many relatively new FP sets are winding up being sold as-is on ebay or being thrown out with the trash these days. I saw one on the bay just recently that had a cracked screen; these show up very often, being advertised as "parts sets" or something similar. Many FP sets are severely damaged by soda cans or other heavy objects being hurled at the screens by irate viewers or children; many times the sets are not worth repairing, especially if they have a few years on them.

All of the foregoing is too bad, but, as former CBS-TV anchorman Walter Cronkite used to close the "CBS Evening News", that's the way it is in this age of outsourcing and companies leaving the United States for offshore destinations. It would be nice if things weren't like this, but they are, so the best any of us can do is to accept it, and, if we can, to make the best of a bad situation.

[Yamaha B-2]

Your Zenith was manufactured several years before the company left Chicago and went to Korea, which explains why it's still giving you good service after 25+ years. I have a 19" Sentry II Zenith of 1995 vintage that still works well and still has its original CRT. This amazes me, since 1995 is right in the middle of the time frame during which Zenith was having so much trouble with the CRTs in their sets.

All of the foregoing is too bad, but, as former CBS-TV anchorman Walter Cronkite used to close the "CBS Evening News", that's the way it is in this age of outsourcing and companies leaving the United States for offshore destinations. It would be nice if things weren't like this, but they are, so the best any of us can do is to accept it, and, if we can, to make the best of a bad situation.Actually, Zenith production moved to Mexico prior to the company being sold to LG. My '89 Zenith 27" is still used most every day as our bdrm unit. Only problem it has ever had is that the remote has gone bad. All else works just fine.

And, as you state, even the Japanese companies can no longer afford to make their own TV (and other gear) at home, except for the highest-end stuff. Yamaha no longer makes a CDP. All are rebadged from Philips or Samsung, etc. Oh, well, we get what we vote for in a democracy.

[YamahaFreak]

It's difficult, in fact almost impossible, to say why your SC is still going strong after 25+ years, while my friend's folks' System III console gave up after 15. :dunno: Theirs went West because of a power supply problem, I think, but that can happen to any TV, even brand new ones. They had even worse trouble with the RCA Guide Plus set that replaced the Zenith (CRT burned out after just two years), but that's so easy to explain it's ridiculous. By 1990 RCA branded TVs were being manufactured by Thomson, using CRTs of questionable reliability. My own CTC185, bought new when I moved here six years ago, still has its original CRT and makes a beautiful picture on the cable system here in my town. I guess it depends on whether you get a set with a good CRT. I have been told, here at AK, that in general the CRTs used in Thomson-built RCAs are very troublesome, but if you are lucky enough to get one with a good tube, it will last years without giving one bit of trouble. However, the 1990s-vintage RCA/Thomson sets had quite a bit of trouble with the ground points around the on-board tuner. If these were not resoldered properly early on, the jungle IC could lose its programming due to noise getting into the chip, which in turn would have been caused by shaky connections at those ground points. I had my RCA repaired for a tuner problem shortly after I purchased the set; the work was done in my apartment, so I was able to see what the technician was doing. He not only fixed the problem I called him for (RF port snapped off the tuner PC board), but he also resoldered every joint around the tuner. If he hadn't done the latter, my TV wouldn't have lasted anywhere near six years (going on seven as I write this).

Your Zenith was manufactured several years before the company left Chicago and went to Korea, which explains why it's still giving you good service after 25+ years. I have a 19" Sentry II Zenith of 1995 vintage that still works well and still has its original CRT. This amazes me, since 1995 is right in the middle of the time frame during which Zenith was having so much trouble with the CRTs in their sets.

I shudder to think what the reliability record of LG's flat-panel HD sets must be. I do know, however, that I would never buy a new TV with the lightning-bolt "Z" on it nowadays. That symbol is just a marketing icon; it means absolutely nothing. LG is simply using it on their televisions to protect their intellectual property rights to the symbol. The guts are still the same low-quality garbage found in LG and many other TVs made offshore today. (I hear even some Sonys are made offshore by another Korean electronics firm.) Unfortunately, however, this is nothing new. I bought an off-brand 12-inch portable TV when I graduated high school 30.5 years ago (1975). The set lasted all of three years before giving up the ghost (I turned it on one afternoon and saw a plume of smoke rising from the circuit board; something had shorted in there). I pitched the off-brand set and bought a Zenith solid-state B&W portable the next day; the new Zenith lasted 22 years without giving me one bit of trouble--nice sharp bright picture, good sound, and good reception with a monopole antenna in the near-fringe area where I lived at the time. I got rid of it in 2000 only because of space limitations when I moved. I also had two Zenith 13" color portables, one 1979 vintage, one 1982, that also gave me excellent service. Again, the only reason I gave them up when I moved was the space problem, which I have described in other posts.

I can only hope those sets went to good homes and didn't wind up in the landfill :eek: (I wasn't even living at my former residence in late 1999; my dad's widow cleaned out the house and later sold it after I left, so I have no way of knowing what happened to those TVs), as they were still working very well, with the 1979 set (Zenith L1310C) having only tuner issues (the detents were shot on both the VHF and UHF tuners). These sets made excellent pictures, however, and were built very solidly...well, at least the 1982 set that replaced the L1310C was; I wouldn't say the '1310 was made all that solidly if the detents on both tuners quit after only a few years. The reason for the 1310's successor's long life (at least 20 years) with no tuner drive train problems was probably that the set had one-knob electronic tuning; once the UHF stations were set up and the channel number tabs installed, the UHF tuning was ordinarily forgotten as was the VHF fine tuning (this set had switchable AFC, but the instruction manual suggested switching the AFC on and leaving it on after properly fine-tuning all stations in the user's area).

I know nothing lasts forever, but anything one pays a good deal of money for should last at least a few years. Time was when you could buy a TV set, for example, and it would last 15-20 years or more. Today's sets, by contrast, even the flat-panel HD sets, are throwaways and generally do not last longer than a couple years, often giving up the ship immediately after or shortly after the warranty expires. I'm not making this up; I have read right here in these AK forums of new TVs made by such formerly respected companies as RCA, Zenith, Magnavox, et al. which come in for repair service, only to have the technician find that the set has developed some very costly repair problem. In many cases the warranty may have just expired or else, if it is still in force, does not cover the problem being repaired. Another common situation is the TV with some years (5, 10 or more) on it that comes into the shop with a very severe problem such as a burned-out CRT, flyback, etc. that will cost more than the set is worth (or what the owner paid for it when it was new) to be repaired. These sets are generally pitched immediately, or at least as soon as the owner gets the repair estimate, as it is not cost-effective for the customer to have it repaired; for what the customer would pay to have the old one repaired, he or she could buy a brand-new set. With the change to digital TV coming in about three years, many people are getting rid of their perfectly good analog CRT sets (I see them all the time on ebay, at dirt-cheap BIN prices and very low starting bids--some as low as one penny) and replacing them with flat-panel plasma/LCD HD sets. It just makes sense, especially since, even though analog CRT TVs will work with digital signals using a converter box between the cable and the set, they will not produce a HD picture. However, as I said, at this stage of their development, HD flat-panel sets are still prone to repair problems that often show up just after the warranty expires. Heaven forbid an owner of a HDTV flat-panel set would have trouble with the video driver ICs in his/her new set. The ICs are actually molded into the ribbon cable going between the panel and the chassis, so if the chips go West for any reason, the entire panel must be replaced. This is probably why so many relatively new FP sets are winding up being sold as-is on ebay or being thrown out with the trash these days. I saw one on the bay just recently that had a cracked screen; these show up very often, being advertised as "parts sets" or something similar. Many FP sets are severely damaged by soda cans or other heavy objects being hurled at the screens by irate viewers or children; many times the sets are not worth repairing, especially if they have a few years on them.

All of the foregoing is too bad, but, as former CBS-TV anchorman Walter Cronkite used to close the "CBS Evening News", that's the way it is in this age of outsourcing and companies leaving the United States for offshore destinations. It would be nice if things weren't like this, but they are, so the best any of us can do is to accept it, and, if we can, to make the best of a bad situation.

That was a great speech!(er...post.) Btw, I'm also sick of people buying plasmas only to have them "burn out" after 2-5 years. I still don't know what cayses that, though.:scratch2:

[YamahaFreak]

Actually, Zenith production moved to Mexico prior to the company being sold to LG. My '89 Zenith 27" is still used most every day as our bdrm unit. Only problem it has ever had is that the remote has gone bad. All else works just fine.

And, as you state, even the Japanese companies can no longer afford to make their own TV (and other gear) at home, except for the highest-end stuff. Yamaha no longer makes a CDP. All are rebadged from Philips or Samsung, etc. Oh, well, we get what we vote for in a democracy.
Please tell me my CDC-575 is authentic. Don't EVEN go there, China.:nono:

[Jeffhs]

Actually, Zenith production moved to Mexico prior to the company being sold to LG. My '89 Zenith 27" is still used most every day as our bdrm unit. Only problem it has ever had is that the remote has gone bad. All else works just fine.

And, as you state, even the Japanese companies can no longer afford to make their own TV (and other gear) at home, except for the highest-end stuff. Yamaha no longer makes a CDP. All are rebadged from Philips or Samsung, etc. Oh, well, we get what we vote for in a democracy.

You are absolutely correct. I just looked at the back of my 1995 Zenith Sentry 2 color set, and found that it had been assembled in Mexico--same as my RCA CTC185. By the nineties, I think the only thing left of Zenith in Chicago were its business offices; they are still there today, although they have moved from Glenview, Illinois to Lincolnshire, both Chicago suburbs. The TV manufacturing plants are in Korea; the audio division moved there in the '80s. I once had a Zenith four-mode integrated stereo system which had been built in Korea to Zenith's specifications, so the audio/radio production arm of the company went offshore some 20+ years before the television plant left Chicago.

As to your Zenith 27" TV, I'm sure a universal remote will operate it just as well as did the original. (The only sets universal remotes will not operate are the very old ones that used ultrasonic signals from a mechanical or electronic hand unit, such as the first Zenith Space Command remotes up to about the 1980s; the universals are all infrared [IR] units, which will only work with modern TVs using IR remote receivers.) I've been using an All For One universal remote with my CTC185 RCA for some time, not necessarily because the original is defective or broken (in fact, it works great), but because the All For One remote will operate my entire video system, except my DVD player (a CyberHome unit that will not work with universal remotes :no: ).

[NowhereMan 1966]

I know my 1998 Zenith 19 incher works with the remote from our 1982 "Space Command" Zenith System 3. IIRC, I think that remote came out in 1979 or so, so it has been for a while. The downside is that we cannot access the settings with it but to change channels and volume, it does the trick.

DE KA3WRW

[stereofisher]

I really do miss US Zenith. Sadly, we have to accept things the way they are. The best we can do keep a them alive by having some of their stuff around, I now have two Zeniths a Transoceanic 3000 and a Royal 755. Just got a GE AM-FM version of a P780,the AM only version. All made here!!!! :) Make me think of better times. Funny though, I own a bunch of Pioneer recievers and TEAC RTR's and cassette decks. I like the looks of them and while they are made in Japan, I like the looks of them. Started in 1969 with a PL 510??? turntable. Great looking and well made. Had a soft spot for them. Quality stuff. All these things are the best. Much of the stuff today is really crappy. Dont know what I will do if my 13 year old Sony Trinitron craps out. Anything built in Japan or here? Any suggestions???? :scratch2: Eric

[superdeez]

When I was 10, my dad gave me a 1970 made in the US Mallory AM/FM/Cassette. It worked flawlessly despite that half or more of its life was being stored in hot/cold garages and in dusty environments. Even played CDs through the line-in. Then it blew an output transistor (which was probably my fault due to a somewhat caviler repair). Even the cassette deck still worked great at 31 years old!

To replace it (and because he was tired of stairing at the carcass with a post-it saying "RIP" on the dial, he got me an "Aiwa" boombox, AM/FM/dual cass/CD. This thing is three times the size of that old mallory, and it weigs about 1/3 what it did. It worked alright for about two/three years, and then the tape heads started failing. Then the CD door latch broke, so I had to put something weighty on it to keep it playing. Then the power supply got loose, and it will randomly stop playing, and I have to jerk the power cord around to make it even work again. The volume down button broke on the unit, but the remote control that only works the CD and turns the unit off (but not on) still works alright. The last straw was when it blew a transistor and the right channel is completely dead. This is after just slightly over 4 years in average service. Made in Malasyia.

[Einar72]

Wow, lotsa venting in this thread. My turn...

BTW -- I was lucky enough recently to find tech work in an electronic manufacturing facility. Nice to have probes and a soldering iron in my hands again.

I, too, watched in sadness as the Corning Glass factory that had produced CRT faceplates since the roundie era was shipped off to Red China. Ditto the RCA plants in Ohio and Indiana going to Mexico, the last days at the St.Louis Zenith plant, all seen on the network news. I even saw Union film footage of aging TV manufacturing workers being sent home for good from an unnamed facility somewhere in the rustbelt.

Just a couple of subtle ironies in play here. Zenith's demise, along with (pre-Thomson) RCA and so many others began with simple lack of foresight. By the mid-1960's, an aging Sarnoff's insistance on shadow-mask CRT's and hesitance to embrace solid-state TV technology left RCA and the me-too others at what would prove to be a disadvantage. A decades-long run of labor-management squabbles didn't help, either.

Wall Street wanted its usual short-term profitability, and moving manufacturing plants away from higher-paid northern states along with accountant-freindly cost-cutting operations naturally became more important than developing improved technologies.

Blame is also deseved for lack of a national trade policy and blatant ignorance or even complicity among politicians all the way to the top. As American workers lost their jobs manufacturing cameras in the 1950's and portable radios in the early 1960's, Japan's late-1960's TV dumping in the U.S. and subsequent job losses was tolerated in trade for support of a war they weren't too supportive of previously.

And, for the ultimate sixties irony, the House Un-American Activities Committee didn't bat an eyelash whe Paramount ordered industrially-emaciated Dumont, owner of the Lawrence-designed Chromatron CRT, hand over the (at the time military-use) techchnology to SONY. Imagine one courageous politician (oxymoron) causing all the TV-manufacturing dollars spent at the box-office that had fattened their pockets for 20-odd years be spent defending (in front of TV cameras) a "business decision" which would eventually doom TV-factory families nationwide.
As it came to pass, the Hollywood establishment would soon pat the aforementioned on the back and at the same time spit in the eye of those same TV-factory workers by trumping-up an unwarranted Oscar for SONY's adaptation of the Chromatron.

[superdeez]

Ironically, unions designed to protect the American worker seem to be in the long run putting him out of a job. Look at the union factories of the 50s and 60s building electronics: with healthcare, retirement plans, and wage raises given at the threat of strikes, it raised the cost of manfacture, thus raising the price to the consumer. Meanwhile, in Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc., such unions didn't exist, and in some cases workers even worked almost at gunpoint (as is still the case I'm sure in some situations), for literally pennies a day. Thus, even though the device has to ride a frieghter several thousand miles to get to the North American shore, the cost to the consumer can be less, with still a decent margin of profit.

Now that manfacturing in the US is basically dead, it's the turn of the auto industry to be strangled by unions, namely UAW. Now, while UAW has kept standards of living high for decades, and protected the worker from corporate tyranny, it's costing manfacturers so much they can barely make a profit on sales of their new vehicles.

A case-in-point is GM, who is keeping several models which sell less than 10,000 vehicles a year on the whole of North America simply because certan UAW workers have a status for which they HAVE to be paid whether they work or not! This is why certan models are sold for "fleet sales" and not advertised to the public, nor are dealerships stocking them. An example is the Chevy Lumina. By all accounts it was "replaced" in 2000 by the Chevy Impala, however Chevy still manfactured it through 2001. Sales were nominal at best, but they still kept workers busy.

Another problem for American companies is stupidity at the top and stifiling corporate beauracracies that strangle ideas for years. Thus in the 70s and 80s comes the problem of the US consumer seeing the domestic product as inferior technologically, more expensive, and thus they flock to the foreign goods flooding our shores.

It happened in the electronics industry 25-35 years ago, and it's happening in the auto industry today. Chrysler has already gone out of business, sold to Diamler-Benz. It's no merger, folks. If you want to see the US car industry in a decade if nothing changes, look to the British car industry. I shudder to imagine a day when it is impossible to buy a new domestic vehicle.

EDIT: A lot of people don't understand our hobby, me personally I love these old electronics because of what they stand for: There's a quiet dignity about these old, heavy, well built machines that the junk from SE Asia doesn't have. Does anyone agree?

[peverett]

I am not a union member, but have the following comment.

Sure unions can and do go overboard, but without them we would have the same working conditions in the US that were had 100 years ago: No health insurance, no retirement, no vacation, six or seven 12 hour days, etc. In fact, this is what many workers in other countries have today. I am convinced that this is exactly what many in business are pushing for today in this country with the canceling of retirement plans through bankruptcy, etc.

Remember that FDR called businessmen "Attila The Huns in business suits". This is not true for most of them, but it is true of far too many. (Just remember Sarnoff of RCA, if you do not believe me).

I have a quote about corporations that I believe is very true:
"Do not love the company you work for it will not love you back."

[mzeitlin3348]

It's interesting - but where is the best High-end Audio made? You don't see Asian labels - certainly not from China.

And when it comes to Cars - same thing holds. They make great everyday cars, but the winners...over and over again are the U.S. and Europe (German, Italian, etc.).

It seems to me that innovation and 'the - next - thing' are still a domain of the U.S. and even Europe. We don't see the next thing coming out of China - yet. Eventually - but not now.

So - Zenith died because innovation at Zenith died. And that's the moral of the story. We are at our best when we set the direction.

Truth be told - our Asian friends have been better at building what we invent better than we build it ourselves. Kenwood anyone?

[Randy Bassham]

The Zenith plant in Missouri was located on East Kearney St in Springfield. I drove past it everyday on my way to work from 1980-1983. I'm not sure when it closed down but it's now mostly warehouses for Bass Pro. I can remember seeing about a bazillion TV antennas on the roof and all the Tractor-Trailers with "ZENITH" painted all across the trailers. At the time it was my understanding that they were building 13 and 19 inch sets there.

[superdeez]

Just to slightly clairify my rant (lol) I am not anti-union, but I just find it sad and ironic that in protecting the men and women that did our manfacturing, we ended up putting many of them out of a job. :(

Yay however to innovation continuing to come from the US and Europe.

[stereofisher]

I am not a union member, but have the following comment.

Sure unions can and do go overboard, but without them we would have the same working conditions in the US that were had 100 years ago: No health insurance, no retirement, no vacation, six or seven 12 hour days, etc. In fact, this is what many workers in other countries have today. I am convinced that this is exactly what many in business are pushing for today in this country with the canceling of retirement plans through bankruptcy, etc.

Remember that FDR called businessmen "Attila The Huns in business suits". This is not true for most of them, but it is true of far too many. (Just remember Sarnoff of RCA, if you do not believe me).

I have a quote about corporations that I believe is very true:
"Do not love the company you work for it will not love you back."

I went to work for Sears in 1997. Back then they cared. Then we got involved with K-Mart and damned if we didnt marry the "Town Whore" of retailing. Load the floor with commission sales people so the good sales associates cant make any money. Give one choice for health insurance that really sucks, offers less coverage and costs more. Sears the only company thats happy to give up market share as long as we make a little money on less sales.Duh. They definitely dont give a damn about the Sales Associate that pays their over priced salaries. Corp weenies. No one person is worth what CEO's get in the US!! Sorry for the vent. Buying appliances from Gold Star and putting Kenmore on them is like dragging a good name thru the mud. My girlfriend asked me about the window AC I put in the bedroom. "is it a good one?" Its OK I said. Could not find the local Freidrichs dealer, who build their AC's here! Like I said in a prevoius post we need gov leaders with balls big enough keep this Chinese crap out of here. I cant beleive we let them in when they were hell bent to destroy us in the 60's. I hate our buyers at Sears. I could not beleive the old broad whose the buyer for our refrigerators. The Kenmores built by Whirlpool are great. I wont sell the Fridgedaires and the Gold Stars ( or LG what the hell the call themselves) are the low end of the food chain. Again sorry for the vent!! Shame on Corp America!! :nono:

Eric

[stereofisher]

If Sears and other retailers keep taking away I see a need for a union shop for retail workers!!! ET

[peverett]

Sears cares? BS.

1. According to a PBS show that I saw Sears was one of the first to bring in TVs below cost from the Japanese. American manufacturers sued and won, but by then it was too late.

2. When my father passed away, he left two credit card debts, Sears and Discovery. Sears hassled and hassled for full payment, her lawyer had to threaten them. Discovery let her pay the bill in once a month payments, no hassle.

3. Sears sold my mother a maintance agreement for many years on her washer. When it broke (the mainance agreement was still in effect) they tried to get out of it, say the washer was too old.

I have also ready of quite a few Auto repair and credit card scandals where Sears was sued and lost. I do not have much respect for them.

[Bill R]

My in-laws had a Sears maintanance agreement on all thier appliances. They had a 1980ish 19inch sanyo made color tv with no remote on the agreement. When it started to get a fuzzy crappy picture, well worse than normal, Sears sent a repairman out to "fix" it. He said they needed a new crt, which Sears ordered and replaced. When he brought the set back to their house the technician was going to converge it and the convergance ring assembly broke. He called parts and they could not find a replacement. So my mother in law went to the Sears store and explaned the problem, and were told to pick out the TV they wanted. They chose a new 27inch Sony with remote control, and Sears delivered it no charge. Sears didn't want the old set so it is with me. I installed the convergence ring assembly from a junker and it worked fine and it even has a new crt.

[holmesuser01]

I was working at Sears when the Brand Central idea began around 1991. I was there for 4 years. All we did was run from point A to point B and try to do as many service calls in a day that the district scheduler (100 miles away in Charlotte, NC) would send us. They couldn't even account for where the mountains are. I'm in western NC, and there are plenty of mountains!!!

As for MA's I condemned an early '70's Welles-Gardener built Sears set one day that had been under an MA from the beginning. She got a brand new cheap Sanyo built set for all that loyalty. It made me sick, but what could I do?

[peverett]

This is not the experience of my family. However, we did buy one of the Sanyo sets somewhere else. It was a good TV.

[holmesuser01]

This Sanyo crapped out several times during the 4 years I was with Sears. Her old Welles-Gardener is in my basement room and it works well now after replacing the obsolete unavailable parts--thru Sears-- with parts that I found on the internet last year. Flyback, and the focus control. I have a feeling that it will run forever for me, as I dont run it 18 hours a day like she did... And yes, she knew that I wound up keeping it after Sears replaced it.

Anyway, I hated seeing Zenith go belly-up. They had the best thing going in their day. When I had my radio-TV repair shop, I rarely saw a Zenith radio, other than a tube replacement now and then.

[bgadow]

An old friend of mine put in many decades as a repairman at Sears. I had assumed he retired but later I learned that they fired him just prior to his retirement date. He sure didn't have much respect for them. He predicts that the Kmart deal will kill them. He did give me a nice Simpson benchtop digital multimeter-said Sears threw it in the garbage when the handle broke, but nothing wrong with it.

I don't understand all the ins and outs of unions and unionized companies. I know that a couple of the largest manufacturing plants in our area are shuttered now with weeds growing up in the parking lot. When they were still "running" the help was all outside carrying picket signs instead of being inside building stuff. Meanwhile the help in Asia was at work. I hope the workers are happy now that their old employers are gone. There, as in everywhere, there has to be some common sense. Fierce overseas competition isn't going anywhere so we had better get with it and do all we can to compete. China, India, etc, are hungry and if we don't get off our butts they will eat our lunch.

[peverett]

If his firing was recent, he should have gotten most of his retirment pay. The defense companies did this firing stuff alot back in the 1970s, in fact, so much that a federal law was passed that said that your earned retirement pay is yours after 5 years with a corporation. A favorate tactic of the defense companies was to set a retirement date of 25 years with no retirement if you left before this was time up. Of course, they then laid you off at 24 1/2 years.

As far as the foreign workers, also remember that many of them have no health care, no paid vacation, no retirement benifits, no OSHA safety requirements, are forced to work 12 hour days (6-7 days a week) with no overtime, etc. Do we want this for our country?

[bgadow]

As far as the foreign workers, also remember that many of them have no health care, no paid vacation, no retirement benifits, no OSHA safety requirements, are forced to work 12 hour days (6-7 days a week) with no overtime, etc. Do we want this for our country?

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. They will continue to work like slaves no matter what we do & at this point there is no turning back. The only way to keep the cheap imports out would be some amazingly high tariffs, and since trade is a 2-way street other US industries would suffer. (agriculture in particular) There just has to be some common sense. We might all want $24/hour and full benefits but the competition gets 24 cents and hour and a bowl of rice. What is better, $12/hour and working or $0/hour and living on the street?

[peverett]

Sure, there is a middle ground. They only way to achieve it is to be very careful who you vote for. A lot of US politicians in office today are just lackeys for the rich (and big business).

As far as the foreigners continuing to work so cheap, they are just like us, the want nice things also. And they have to work on their governments too.

FYI, China is in the progress of building the second largest road system in the world, after the US. This is one of the reasons for higher oil prices, the demand there is increasing as workers there are able to buy cars and drive, so their income must be increasing somewhat. (They sell brand new Ford Mavericks-remember them- in China-but the Chinese one is an SUV).

A final note more relavant to the demise of Zenith is that there is still a lot of electonics manufacturing in the US. Many of the microchips in your cars(including some Japanese ones), PCs,TVs, Stereos(including foreign/Japanese brands), cellphones, etc. are manufactured in the United States! Companies with factories in the US include Intel, Freescale(formerly Motorola), TI, IBM, National Semiconductor, Samsung(yes Samsung) among others. TV manufacturing may be elsewhere, but other electronic manufacturing is alive and well here.

[Einar72]

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. They will continue to work like slaves no matter what we do & at this point there is no turning back. The only way to keep the cheap imports out would be some amazingly high tariffs, and since trade is a 2-way street other US industries would suffer. (agriculture in particular) There just has to be some common sense. We might all want $24/hour and full benefits but the competition gets 24 cents and hour and a bowl of rice. What is better, $12/hour and working or $0/hour and living on the street?

It's hard to have a middle ground under a chasm. We are a nation hopelessly divided. Take your pick - by politics, religion, economic (or even employment) status. Let me use this example: We are so admiring (as we should be) of those who serve in the Armed Forces, especially in times of war, but when they return and go back to work at GM or Ford, we slam them as lazy, overpaid Union goons, just like they were our enemies or some such rot.

Just read the book Megatrends or any book on offshoring and you can see how bad it really is. Most new manufactured goods are never even considered producable in the U.S. As I said earlier in this thread, sheer greed drives the wheels of our economy today, but without the once-necessary requirement of domestic production, it seems ever so much more bald-faced.

I'm lucky to have found work in electronic manufacturing, because the rules now are so different. A company today is often just ideas, management, distribution and a pretty face at the front desk. The rest is handled by outsourcing firms, sometimes locally or nationally, but more often than not, offshore. What's really ironic is how I am working doing PCBA production for companies that I either used to work for or were located nearby.

[peverett]

I want to emphasize that when I mentioned microchip production in the US, I meant PRODUCTION in the US, not just distribution. All of the companies that I mentioned have wafer fabrication facilities in the US. Some are building new wafer fabs here. For those that do not know, the wafer fab is where the actual integrated circuit is built. The remaining work is just placing it into the package to be soldiered onto the PC board.

[Yamaha B-2]

I want to emphasize that when I mentioned microchip production in the US, I meant PRODUCTION in the US, not just distribution. All of the companies that I mentioned have wafer fabrication facilities in the US. Some are building new wafer fabs here. For those that do not know, the wafer fab is where the actual integrated circuit is built. The remaining work is just placing it into the package to be soldiered onto the PC board.Interesting. Who is building new fabs in the U.S.? And where?

[bgadow]

Most new manufactured goods are never even considered producable in the U.S.

Sad but true...I read recently of a man who came up with a new invention but he could not find anyone in the states to build it. Production is now underway in China. Then there is the small manufacturer in our town which layed off many workers early this year; the newspaper article said they are moving from a manufacturing company to a design & distributing firm. There core product, disposable plastic cutlery, is just too easy to make overseas. The price of their American made product was not outrageous, and the quality was very good, but in an open market where the average customer ignores country of origin, that just isn't good enough.

[peverett]

New Fabs in the US-the last information that I have.
IBM, New York
TI, Dallas, Texas
Intel-either New Mexico or Oregon
Samsung-Austin, Texas

There may be more, but these are the ones I am aware of.

[peverett]

Another fab being built in the US. With a great subsidy from New York, of course.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/23/technology/amd_ny.reut/index.htm

[Yamaha B-2]

IBM & TI are fitting out existing structures.
Intel/Micron are jointly finishing a structure Micron built back in the mid-90's in Lehi, UT.
Samsung is finishing out a structure in Austin.
The AMD fab in NY would be 'new'.

When I think of 'new' fab, I am thinking 'green-field'. That is, they have to break new ground. Not finish something they started ten years ago and stopped when the market went south.

[peverett]

If your definition of "new" is upheld, then the only "new" fab in the world would be the AMD one. All others that I am aware of are additions or finishing out. American jobs are being created by all of them.

FYI, the Samsung finishing out is going to cost around 3 billion dollars. Quite a finishing, I would say.

[Yamaha B-2]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Kokusai furnaces that Intel uses and ASM epi machines at TI, etc., don't do that much for U.S. jobs, other than hold the line a bit. The folks doing the construction/install work might be unemployed or whatever, otherwise, I grant you. But, with only Applied Materials, Lam and a few other, considerably smaller U.S. companies supplying the tools and very little concrete (generally Mexicans, I agree - what did Daniel Boone say when he woke up at the Alamao and saw all the Mexicans? "I didn't know we were pouring concrete today." :D I've poured MANY yards of concrete and very little of it since ~1990 has been with anyone other than Mexican labor, especially in the west) then we are simply holding our own. I don't think there is a U.S. based vacuum pump manufactuerer at all today. Want a dry roughing pump or turbo pump it will come from Asia or Europe. I've forgotten the name of the cryopump company (Helix was the parent), but I'll bet they are pretty much gone or foreign owned by. Especially with the level of robotics and automation and 'copy exact' in the fabs of today. Better than nothing, but I'm guessing that all the new fabs put together will not result in more than a few thousand permanent new jobs in the U.S. That is simply the name of the game, unfortunately.

[peverett]

The people that operate these fabs will be all American. According to the article in the paper today, the one in New York will employ 1200. There are also supporting jobs, such as supplying the ultra clean gasses necessary for these fabs, etc. As I live in Austin, I do know people here that are making a living from the Samsung plant.

As far as other electronics jobs, the typical line that builds a cell phone or TV is mostly robots, etc.(+ a few repetitive jobs) This is true no matter where it is located. Open any electronic device today-the heart of it is the integrated circuit. All the rest of it is just support.

I do not know anything about vacuum pumps, but I do know that the company I work for, an American company, builds and supplies ICs to companies in Japan for the Japanese market! In addtion, there are several startup bringing out new chips here all of the time. Just because we do not build TVs any more does not indicate that the US electronics industry is dead.

[Yamaha B-2]

Can't argue that the AMD fab in NY will add new jobs. It is a green-field project. Something totally new. That's great to read.

Ultra clean gases. Near and dear to my heart. I was project manager for the UHP piping install throughout AMD fabs 10, 14 & 15 in Austin (great city - I miss living there). UHP piping and gases, etc., was brandy-new back in the late '80's. Passe today. Do those fabs even exist today? But, if there is one thing that the industrial gas companies hate more than adding capacity, it is adding personel. Might be a few added technician jobs if they (APCI, BOC, Matheson, etc.) get an on-site operations contract, but not many.

Austin....AMD, Motorola (or what was Motorola MOS 11), Cypress, Samsung, Austin Semi (milspec stuff, mostly), does IBM still exist on the north side of town? Who else is running lines in Austin?

Don't think that the folks operating the Samsung fab will all be American. At the management and engineering level I'll guess it will be about 50/50. The worker-bees will be Americans. And the tool-set might be 50/50. But, better than nothing.

Few U.S. companies invest in their manufacturing operations (with some noted hi-tech companies like Intel, IBM, etc., who do). Ala Zenith, where this thread started. Too busy paying their worthless senior executives multi-tens of millions of dollars to run the company into the ground.

Not unusual that we would be shipping chips to Japan. Is even more expensive to make products there than it is in the U.S. Like us, they only make the highest of their high-tech/high-value-added products at home. If we make chips less expensively than they do for certain products then that is what they will use. Pretty sad. Yamaha doesn't even make a digital player today. Simply buy and rebadge those from folks like Samsung. Oh, the horror.

[peverett]

There are three companies that I am aware of running IC fabrication in Austin-Freescale(spun off from Motorola), Spansion(spun off from AMD) and Samsung. IBM is still here. Also here is Intel-design center only. Many other newer small companies are also here. Of course, Dell is still still here, but has stopped growing in Austin. I am not sure what Austin Semi and Cypress are doing these days.

As far as the ratio of workers at the Samsung plant, I cannot imagine it being 50/50. I am sure the plant employs as many as the AMD plant will. That would mean bringing 600 Koreans over. It seems that it would be cheaper then to just keep it in Korea. I think it is more like 90/10.

In addition, Toyota is building a large pickup factory in San Antonio. They want to try to take Ford and GMs market for large pickups. Of course the workers they hire will only replace GM/Ford workers who are losing their jobs with cheaper non-union workers that have no retirement benefits.

As far as the problem with over-paid executives running companys in the ground, that is industry wide, not just in electronics.

[Yamaha B-2]

As far as the ratio of workers at the Samsung plant, I cannot imagine it being 50/50. I am sure the plant employs as many as the AMD plant will. That would mean bringing 600 Koreans over. It seems that it would be cheaper then to just keep it in Korea. I think it is more like 90/10.

As far as the problem with over-paid executives running companys in the ground, that is industry wide, not just in electronics.I stated "at the management and engineering level". That will not be half of the 1200 you mentioned.

And, again, I did not state that over-paid executives was only an electronics manufacturing industry problem. Although it exists there as much as anywhere. Just look at what TJ at Crypress has paid himself over the years.

Thanks for the info on Spansion and Freescale.