I have had interesting conversations with a couple of different people over the last week who have been involved in audio for many years. When the conversation turned to turntables both said in their opinion nothing compares to the LP12. To me, the design of the LP12 looks very similar to many other tables including a lot of Thorens, Aristons, ARs, and I am sure many others.

Both of these people told me that they had heard and owned many of these tables and still concluded that the Linn is much better. I am not really thinking so much about a modern LP12 with Ittok arm and power supply upgrades, and an incredibly expensive MC cartridge but rather a basic 1970s or 1980s LP12.

Any owners who feel this turntable is that much better than the Thorens or Ariston tables?

Thanks,
Mike O

overhyped in my opinion. costly too. i'm not a fan of suspended tables period. i want a solid heavy plinth. granted i have a costly table, but in the Linn price range i'd get a minty denon dp-72L. just my opinion. :D

The Itokk is not a modern arm, it dates from the 80's. There's something to be said about a table that is still supported, there's upgrade paths and repair parts availble, hell you can even buy a new dust cover for it.

X

It's a fallacy to believe an original 70's Linn can be bought up to the latest spec.

It can't.

During it's long life Linn made several structural changes that preclude really old tables being upgraded.

The Linn lost it's top dog status back in the late 80's /90's when manufacturers like Goldmund, VPI, Well Tempered, Oracle etc. got their collective acts together and started producing tables that comprehensively bettered the Linn's performance, especially the Linn's main advantage over competitors, it's liquid upper midrange.

Having said that I would take a Linn in good condition over almost any vintage turntable.

Amongst Linn connoisseurs, many now feel the pre-Valhalla Linn, with Grace 707/Supex 900 was the optimal expression of the Linn sound.

The LP12 is finicky, delicate, and a pain in the backside to set up. That said, once one is properly set up there are few tables, at anywhere near its price, that can out-perform it although there are several that are as good and many that can't touch it.

The LP-12 is legendary for a reason. They are that good. Yes there are better turntables but not many. Price is relative. While a Linn may seem expensive, it is very cheap compared to something like a Roksan or a Thorens Reference.

I love suspended turntables. I own and regulary use two - a Thorens and an AR, both which are considerably tweaked. I have been a turntable trader for more than 20 years and have owned many, many different brands and models and I have found the suspended design to be the most consistently satisfying. I would love to own a Linn.

The LP12 is a good turntable, but as danj says it is a complete pain in the backside to set up and keep on tune, and i don't believe it's as good as it's always been hyped to be.

In my opinion you can do as well if not better for the same money by spending it elsewhere.

Adam.

Which Lp12? There have got to be more add-ons and goodies for this table than any other - and I am talking from the facotry.

Before I made my purchase I got to listen to a fully kitted out LP12 - and when I say fully we are talking aruond 17,000 euros all in - of which the cheapest part is the TT itself.

At that level it is certainly an impressive unit - but with those kind of funds on tap there is also SERIOUS competition. I should say that this 17K unit bares no resemblance sonically to the standard unit - but I would take the Clearaudio Master Reference in a blink.

Would be a nice problem to have - that kind of choice!

IMO there are those that would only own this one, then you will have those that feel that there are equals to it and finally the group that would never have one. I have the B&O 8000, a Linn LP12 purchased in 1990, a Denon DP-67L and the Rega Planar 3 and every single one of them have things that I like and things that I do not like. The B&O is very dated but it still has a very modern look. The Linn was hard to set up but they have a wonderful detailed manual that takes one through all the steps. The Denon is another dated piece but it still has a very modern look much along the lines of the B&O. The Rega is a no frills black table that performs very well and the market place has numerous treaks that one can purchase. As to which one is the best? That is a tough question because they all have their good and bad points. To me the best would be the Rockport but that is $70,000.00+ and I cannot justify that large of an expenditure. I can only read about it in the Stereophile magazine. My best advice is try one and listen to see if you like it or do not like it. As all ready stated, there are a number of very excellent tables out there, the Linn LP12 is just one of them.

To state the obvious, each and every piece of hi-fi equipment has its strengths and weaknesses. Choosing a turntable that you are comfortable with is highly subjective. When it comes to choosing a suspended turntable, I prefer something adjustable from the top, like an Oracle. I've heard a Linn Sondek once and wasn't very impressed with it. If I had to choose between a Linn Sondek with all the latest bells and whistles – Lingo, Ekos or Naim ARO, Troika, Cirkus, Nirvana, and a similarly priced turntable, I'd go for a used Goldmund Studio with Morch DP-6 anytime.

To state the obvious, each and every piece of hi-fi equipment has its strengths and weaknesses. Choosing a turntable that you are comfortable with is highly subjective.
I heartily agree with this sentiment. I bought an LP12 in 1985 because it was demonstratably better than my Thorens, and better than anything else I had a chance to compare it with (and I like Linn's approach to deciding which is "better"--asking questions of a musical nature such as do the musicians seem to be playing together, can I pick out any musical part and follow it without difficulty, am I responding to the music). Would I buy it again? That would depend on what else I could audition. I've been very happy with it, but if I were in the market, I would want to make comparisons with models like the Rega P9 and Roksan Xerxes, models that have similar musical strengths. I might even want to take another listen to turntables I have formerly dismissed, like Well Tempered and VPI, just to see if my tastes (or their products) have changed.

Choosing a turntable that you are comfortable with is highly subjective.
Definitely!

Years ago I spent a bunch of time listening to a direct comparison between a Linn & a Sota in the same system, I preferred/bought the Sota and my buddy preferred/bought the Linn - we where both very happy with our purchases and still own them.

thinking so much about a modern LP12 with Ittok arm and power supply upgrades, and an incredibly expensive MC cartridge but rather a basic 1970s or 1980s LP12.


Thanks,
Mike O[/QUOTE]

Sounds as tho' you have a budget like mine.
Few good 80's Linn's go for less than $1000 so I bought an Ariston RD 11S with SME arm. You can debate all day about what's hot or who built the suspended table first. All I know is that my $350 bucks bought a big-time sounding table because both the table and the particular model arm are overlooked by Audiophile-Lemmings.
Turntables are for playing music, it's speakers that are to be played with.
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Sounds as tho' you have a budget like mine.
Few good 80's Linn's go for less than $1000 so I bought an Ariston RD 11S with SME arm. You can debate all day about what's hot or who built the suspended table first. All I know is that my $350 bucks bought a big-time sounding table because both the table and the particular model arm are overlooked by Audiophile-Lemmings.
Turntables are for playing music, it's speakers that are to be played with.
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Hi Bill

Yes I have a hard time justifying huge money on any piece of audio equipment although I definitely do enjoy the turntables I have. I think if I did end up with an LP12 it would be a very basic one.

On a bright note I recently found an Ariston RD80 with Grace 707 arm for $120 Canadian. I think in terms of build quality (and sound) it is slightly better than my Thoren's TD145 Mk2 and TD160s. Also, the grace arm was one of the options on the early linns so I may have a table approaching the quality of at least a 1970s LP12 for $120. Only problem is the motor has issues starting up. Once going it works fine. I am still trying a few things to get it going properly. I do have to agree with many of the people here who have suggested that these type of tables are frustrating to set up but sound quite good when set up correctly.

Mike O

If you recall,Linn were adament that the front-end(in those days=tuntable)was the component which had the greatest influence on the outcome,sound-quality wise.
Given that,the worst sounding demonstration of hi-fi gear I ever heard in my life was a Linn/Naim system.The retailer was a bona-fide Linn/Naim dealer,at the time the only one in Sydney(I think).Are you reading this Nick?
The System conformed to the Linn/Naim heirarchy of quality:LP 12/Ittok/Asak,Naim32/250 and low budget Linn speakers(I can't remember the model of the speakers.Index?)
Anyway,I took along the first album of Phoebe Snow's.This system sounded ABOMINABLE.I have heard better sounding clock-radios(I'm NOT joking!).
The retailer and myself were sitting side by side on two armchairs.He tapping his feet,and swaying his head.Me glancing at him and thinking"This guy's gotta be deaf!".So he turns to me and says"Whaddaya think?"
A moment's thought on my part and I reply"I've never heard anything like it".There are no words for me to describe what I was hearing because this system screwed-up every parameter I've ever seen described to comunicate sound quality in one stroke. :sigh:
Now I've heard Linns sound good and this guy had set them up,but this demo convinced me that if GOD himself told me that a component was excellent,and my ears told me otherwise,I'd have to believe my ears.
The other lesson I took from this demonstration,was that if the retailer, who depends on demonstrating the superiority of the equipment he sells to provide his income,CANNOT demonstrate the said superiority of self same equipment,then I can't buy it in the hope that he will be able to set it up at my home(after purchase)better than he can set it up in the show-room.

Locally, I had the chance to listen to a fairly recent LP12 at the home of a fellow I was buying some records from.

The cartridge was a Benz Micro, ARC PH-3 phono stage, McCormack DNA amplification and Martin Logan speakers.

He played several MFSLs and classic 60s stuff including Getz/Gilberto.

Sounded very good to me, but not exceptional.

Speaking of the LP12's midrange performance, I thought that midrange quality was determined by the quality of the tonearm more than the turntable and motor mechanism. The LP12 has been fitted with many kinds of different tonearms over the years. It would be difficult for it to have a particular midrange characteristic, unless the same arm were used in all models.

The LP12 was a leading TT in the 70s, when Ivor T toured the world demonstrating how "the front end" made such a difference to the sound. That being said, the competition then musta bin pretty woeful, given the state of the TT itself, and the primitive arm and cart used in those days. :D

Since those halcyon days, many TTs arrived which - with the same arm & cartridge - certainly delivered better sound. However, one good thing about the LP12 has been - for those of us who bought one a long time ago and can't afford the major expense of swapping rigs every 5 or 10 years - its upgradeability. IE. it can regularly be improved.

And with the Keel (or competing CF-composite subchassis/armboard combinations), the LP12 takes a major step forward as a result of the rigid connection between armboard & subchassis (which allows the stylus to pick up low-level detail from the grooves but is only viable with a subchassis which is made from a substance which doesn't have the sonic problems of the stock pressed-steel subchassis - any variant).

At the same time, it's a sad reflection on Linn owners, IMO, that they tend to be heavily influenced by the "Linn/Naim dealer" axis of evil ... so that only a small percentage of them own arms which are neither Linn nor Naim. So they never experience alternative possibilities.

IME major improvements to the sound of the LP12 can be had by:
a) installing the Nirvana/Cirkus/plinth/armboard/Lingo upgrades which Linn have come up with over the years.
b) choosing a Graham 2.2/Moerch/Schroeder arm over an Ekos - and certainly any other Linn arms & the Aro - but possibly not the Ekos SE?
c) installing a non-Linn cartridge - like an Ortofon Contrapunktus 'C' or a Benz Ebony LP.
d) most especially, substituting a CF-composite subchassis & armboard for the stock components (much, much cheaper than the Keel and delivers the same improvement from having a rigid coupling between armboard & subchassis).

I've had my Linn since 1978 but I would put my current combo up against any - including a fully blown LP12/Keel/Ekos SE/Troika/Lingo2 ... and mine cost me significantly less! :D

But, yes, a Goldmund Reference would eat it for breakfast! :D

Regards,

Andy

I just got thru hearing a LP12 for the first time on a NAD system at the dealer. It was a trade in from the late 80's. He set it up in front of me. It had the basik power supply and the Akito arm and Grado Sonata cartridge. Right from the get go it was right on the money as far as the 33 1/3.

The platter, man you could kill someone with that. :eek: From what I saw of the P7's platter, it's at least in that league as far as bulk, if not heavier.

I have heard a Rega p5, p7, p9 and some $$$ stuff at the Rocky Mountain Audio show.

My FIRST impression is that it sounded at least as good as the P5 to P7 range. It's just that I don't have a record collection to really speak of but every one talks about this so I just had to hear !!

The price was less than 750.00 so given that I consider that a good deal.

Still thinking about it :-)

Without reading the previous posts I'll say that the LP12 is the ultimate tweakers dream-machine. Probably more up-grades and tweaks available for the LP12 than any other piece of gear in the audio lexicon. From mild to wild. And, is the favorite of many. Don't see how one could go wrong with one as their choice of TT/TA.

There are a few other turntables that can sound very close to an LP12 for less dollars. I would recommend looking into the following two turntables:

Systemdek IIX

Fons CQ30

They have a very similar design, but are less finicky, easier to set up and are much less expensive. I have owned all three. I sold the Linn; I still have the Systemdek and the Fons.

John