Rule Change to classifieds

[grumpy]

We charged nothing to sell on AK and only asked for a donation. Less then roughly 5% of all users of the classifieds here on AK actually made a donation for their use.

Newbies come here to avoid fees, take our bandwidth and potentially rip off our members.

Hm I wonder why we had to even have rules in the first place...

We are tired of having to police the classifieds ! So starting very soon the "free" classifieds on AK will be gone !

Every single classified ad with the exception of wanted ads will cost a fee.

Ads will have to be Prepaid before they will be made available to the public.

Sad part is all of our loyal members are the ones who will get shafted since they were the ones who abide by the rules.

So are all you newbies who were whining your asses off happy ? Well you should be cuz now you are the same playing field as a member who has been here since day one..

[bolly]

I'm shocked grumpy..........only 5% :worried:

[Elroy]

Us NEWBIES are an evil brood aren't we? :cry:

[Kamakiri]

And why are you taking this personally?

[bolly]

who?

[Elroy]

I have not used the classifieds and based on the exhibited sensitivity surrounding the subject, probably never will. I just see no need to use that condescending "tone". I am sure frustrations abound as you gentleman work to maintain this wonderful forum, but even so, is that kind of abrasive communication helping things? I probably should have just moved on but I guess it did offend me.

[steve gibson]

Perfect!! I am a newbie, but a heavy user. I have not sold anything but I have made donations. You get what you pay for and I want this site to continue. It is easy to tell by the posts those that feel an ownership here. Hats off to all of you!

[Wardsweb]

Don't take it personally Elroy. Your last name isn't Jetson is it? Anyway, what I was saying is, that's just Grumpy. Why do you think that's his name? Around here, you have to learn to just let it go and walk away or click to the next thread. With over 6000 members, not everyone gets along everyday. Like any family, each member has his own personality. Once you get to know everyone, you know how to approach each.

[Elroy]

...that's just Grumpy. Why do you think that's his name? Around here, you have to learn to just let it go and walk away or click to the next thread.
I am learning as I go here. Sorry for the smarta** post Grumpy. Hey, I have no problem with the fee at all. I believe in free enterprise and realize that this forum is viewed by MANY audio equipment enthusiests. This makes it a prime place to put something up for sale. AK SHOULD by all means at least receive a commission on that sale.

[GordonW]

Man, this makes life significantly harder here, for those of us that don't have credit cards or PayPal accounts.

Oh well... maybe it's time to go spend more time at DIYAudio, AudioWeb or Madisound. Yes, I know that the place I work at has a "business account" here... but I still place "personal" stuff for sale here, and have followed the rules religiously (to the point of searching through my own FS posts EVERY time before making a new one, to make SURE I haven't violated the rules). So, I'm a bit disappointed at this change.

While some of us don't have a whole lot of cash to throw around (trying to start a speaker-building firm is a quick way to not just go, but STAY broke), we try to contribute in other ways...

Mind you, I in no way dispute the rights of the owners of a board to make whatever rules they want. I just gravitate to boards that make things easier for me to cope with...

Man, maybe I should just go back to bed this morning...

Regards,
Gordon.

[opt80]

We are talking 5% here. If you sell a receiver to someone on AK for $50. You'll have to pay AK $2.50.Do you drink 2 take-out coffees a day? I drink 4 at $1.20 ea.which equals $4.80.

Put it into perspective,,it ain't that much

Alan

[jimbecky48001]

I have been a member since Dec when i came across this site searching for info.I read the rules and got to know some of the members in the chat room and help out with posts when i believe I know what I am talking about and I have asked many questions and received invaluable info in return.I do not have 100 post yet and I do feel like a member.I have no problem with the requirements set here be they be 100 posts or a charge for selling.I did not join here to sell my gear and some day I might like to sell something, but if i dont have 100 posts at that time I will simply wait until i have fullfilled the member rules (this is not a big deal).Life is about rules (this is what seperates us from the animals)I dont want to ruffle any feathers , this is just my opinion. Jim

[Reel 2 Reel]

Hear..Hear..Jim!!!! :banana:

Its not about selling!...its about the fun...which with all the selling thats been goin on lately...has been down a bit!!.. :sigh:

We dont need another E-bay here...as the others said...if you dont parcipate...git!....

I don't post about 'Stereos'...or 'audio' in general all the time...it aint a prerequsite for this board.....FUN!!!! FUN!!!

Hell.....why do ya think I run around nekked all the time!!!!.........cuz its fun!....he.he.he!! :D

[grumpy]

We are talking 5% here. If you sell a receiver to someone on AK for $50. You'll have to pay AK $2.50.Do you drink 2 take-out coffees a day? I drink 4 at $1.20 ea.which equals $4.80.

Put it into perspective,,it ain't that much

Alan


Alan

I said less then 5% of the people have donated who used the for sale forum. Not that we want 5% of anyones sales. Just wanted to clarify that.

I should have mentioned that there are some old timers as well who have abused this forums classifieds for years. They are just as big a reason for the change. These people make money off of AK and never give ONE penny back. Again it was only a suggestion they they donate. Ironic that they are some of the loud mouthed whiners too.

We are not talking about the casual seller but the people who have regularly posted items for sale to take advantage of the membership.

Sorry for making it seem that it was ALL the fault of newbies as its not..

As Kam said if you dont like it you know where the door is !

Better yet I personally like the idea of completely doing away with the entire classifieds.... Problem solved

[Elroy]

As Kam said if you dont like it you know where the door is !

Let em have it Mr. Grumpy! :twak:

[jimbecky48001]

Grumpy you guys have built a wonderful site.It is impossible to make everybody happy, so why try.Just do what you think is right and let the chips fall. Jim

[botrytis]

Man, this makes life significantly harder here, for those of us that don't have credit cards or PayPal accounts.

Oh well... maybe it's time to go spend more time at DIYAudio, AudioWeb or Madisound. Yes, I know that the place I work at has a "business account" here... but I still place "personal" stuff for sale here, and have followed the rules religiously (to the point of searching through my own FS posts EVERY time before making a new one, to make SURE I haven't violated the rules). So, I'm a bit disappointed at this change.

While some of us don't have a whole lot of cash to throw around (trying to start a speaker-building firm is a quick way to not just go, but STAY broke), we try to contribute in other ways...

Mind you, I in no way dispute the rights of the owners of a board to make whatever rules they want. I just gravitate to boards that make things easier for me to cope with...

Man, maybe I should just go back to bed this morning...

Regards,
Gordon.


I am sorry that you won't be able to dump your stuff for free now!!! You are dumping the gear for the company you work for, for kripes sake!!! YOU SHOULD DONATE TO AK WITH ALL THE GEAR YOU HAVE SOLD ON THIS SITE - I know I have - HAVE YOU?

Dave

[VintageNut]

What, no free lunch? No free bandwith? 5% is reasonable. We all gain useful info from the board, it's not unreasonable to pay for it. How much is the knowledge we all gain from posting here and reading here worth? It's worth something to me.
When the owners (by the way, who are the owners?) start charging large fees and driving Ferraris and Jags, maybe I'll reconsider . What are you driving now, Grumpy?

[grumpy]

I drive a 1990 honda civic with 140,000 miles

[Yosemite]

Just to reiterate what Grump posted just previous to this -
"I said less then 5% of the people have donated who used the for sale forum. Not that we want 5% of anyones sales. Just wanted to clarify that."

I don't think the new standard has been set up yet.

(Just tryin to up my meager post count) ;>)

Mike

[Toasted Almond]

I don't sell a lot here, but I don't sell a little either. I don't have a Paypal account, and don't really want to start one. How about a one time yearly fee to be a SELLING member? Maybe I'm wrong, but it would seem to be easier to police the Classifieds for non-paying sellers than any other type accounting system.

I would also suggest a small percentage buyers fee. There IS a lot more to be said for buying here than at ebay or any other potential rip-off site and perhaps buyers should pay homage to that as well as the sellers.

If you're going to tell me I'm nuts and shit, save your breath. Enough people have broached the subject/hinted around so that I feel there JUST MIGHT be some truth to the rumors.

[trueview]

great posts Jim and TA...
I think a seller subscription fee sounds very fair, maybe $25 a year?
im kinda new here but i love the site...great job to all who manage it! :thmbsp:

[tubino]

I drive a 1990 honda civic with 140,000 miles
I drive a 1985 Volvo wagon with 96,000 miles. I know that's irrelevant here, but I really like the car, and enjoy using a nice old machine that works well. And I'd rather spend the car money I save (don't forget insurance, taxes, etc.) on stereo gear.

That's your point, right Grumpy? :D

[GordonW]

I am sorry that you won't be able to dump your stuff for free now!!! You are dumping the gear for the company you work for, for kripes sake!!! YOU SHOULD DONATE TO AK WITH ALL THE GEAR YOU HAVE SOLD ON THIS SITE - I know I have - HAVE YOU?

Dave

Geesh, what an assumption!

If you care to ask Wardsweb, I HAVE personally donated to this site. Also, the company I work for, pays the specified $50 PER MONTH (which I just sent off to Wardsweb, on March 29th), to be able to post dealer ads. I actually CONVINCED the people I work for, to JOIN AK as a contributing sponsor/dealer, despite their initial doubts. Like I said, I'm not personally made of money, but I DO EVERYTHING I CAN to direct money and help to AK.

And really, if you wanna talk about free- how many of you have gotten the technical know-how to fix your speakers as a result of posts I've made? That knowledge certainly wasn't free for me to learn... it's a result of over 20 years of work, and sometimes just plain trial-and-error effort. Look at my postings over the last year and a half, since I first registered here- at exactly HOW MANY of them (probably at least 50%) related to either helping someone find a part, or to some technique for repairing something that nobody else knew how to fix...

And, as I just mentioned above, I've been VERY careful to NOT mix my personal gear with stuff sold for the store. Ever since the "5 items per month" rule came about, I've NEVER had more than 5 personal items (and these are items I've either rebuilt or found, ON MY OWN TIME AND EFFORT) up at one time, even BEFORE the strict enforcement came about lately.

Man, I don't know why I should have to justify myself like this... this is getting old, fast. Maybe it's time for a break. Not worth putting my stress into the red, over something like this. The doctor is already worried about my blood pressure, I don't need any more of that...

Regards,
Gordon
sincerely disappointed that someone would say stuff like that...

[bigmacc]

In response to Toasted Almond l believe you are the most kind, considerate, likeable, most sensitive person l ever have had the opportunity and privilege to post with on any forum. :thmbsp: Well next to RuSsMaN of course. :D

[GordonW]

I don't sell a lot here, but I don't sell a little either. I don't have a Paypal account, and don't really want to start one. How about a one time yearly fee to be a SELLING member? Maybe I'm wrong, but it would seem to be easier to police the Classifieds for non-paying sellers than any other type accounting system.


See, now this makes A LOT of sense to me. All you have to do, is "permission" each paying account, to make them eligible to post threads with items FS. Simply making it IMPOSSIBLE to start a thread without being an eligible member, would take care of 99% of all problems, AFAICT. Very few people are going to add on posts to an existing thread, to "piggyback" illicit ads of their own, and those few that DO pop up, should be simple enough to moderate out of the system...

I'd gladly pay $50 a year, one-time, to be eligible for this... or any reasonable amount, really. It's just the "pay-per item" aspect that makes it unwieldy for people like us, who don't do Paypal or CC's.

[merrylander]

As one who would not touch Paypal with a stick can I pre-pay? By that I mean I can setup a listing fee account and keep a balance in it. As I plan on dealing exclusively on AK and telling eBay to p**s off I would like to be able to post quickly. Oh yeah, the fee for the CR-840 sale is in the mail, went out three hours ago.

Rob

[spaceman]

I know I'm still a newbie here, and to the world of audio gear in general, vintage or not. I like to post a lot, compared to some, even tho I don't have a lot to contribute. That has to do with, A) my sincere desire to learn, B) recognizing the need to contribute SOMETHING to the community, even if it's just congratulating someone on a good score, and C) it helps fill up my day to day existence as a disabled person, who spends hours on the puter just for something to do. If I had the money, I'd gladly make a large contribution, just to be able to hang out here, & learn & share. I sincerely hope the problems are resolved in a way that everyone can live with, as this site rocks. To GordonW, please just let it roll off. I see you as one of the major contributors, and I bet most others would agree. :thmbsp:

[Toasted Almond]

Thanks Macc. You're a prince for putting that in writing. I'm just trying to be more than just another pretty face.

[Crotalus]

I'll gladly ante up for the privilege to sell/buy here. I love this site and only wish I had more money to donate all the time.

[EchoWars]

I like the idea of a yearly, and a way for the 'pay-as-you-go'.

I'm also going to suggest the addition of one more selling forum, free of charge...AK Benefit Sales...gear that is being sold specifically for the benefit of the site. If a member has something he wants to sell with 100% of the proceeds going to AK, then that would be the place, with the understanding that the only thing the seller is eligible for is shipping and packing costs.

Just a thought... :scratch2:

[EchoWars]

...another thought...

The idea of waiting till 100 posts were met was put forth partly to prevent someone joining simply to dump their gear for no fees on AK whilst using AK's bandwidth to achieve this purpose, and partly to protect members by asking that someone become a part of the community before they sold, with the intention of protecting members from possible fraudulent deals.

The former is solved with a fee schedule, but what of the latter?

[Toasted Almond]

Echo,

Your ideas are valid, but why penalize the giver with shipping and packing costs? Let the person on the receiving end be responsible for everything. It would (in my mind) lower the initial cost of the item for one. I can't in good conscience sell something for X number of dollars, if the shipping charge is no longer going to make it a good deal for a member. I always try and figure that in when I set a price for something.

As far as the latter problem you brought up, the only thing we have in place is the good sellers forum. Maybe we need a bad sellers forum too. I've been burned by "members in good standing" because the individual couldn't pack worth a shit. I took it in the shorts on what was supposed to be an even swap. I sent out a perfectly good item, packed to withstand a bomb-blast. I GOT a big, heavy, power amp, loosely boxed with a glorified blanket wrapped around it. Busted to shit by the time FedEx delivered it. I got a pretty good sob story from the individual, and then a year or so later, trying to even up the score, he sent me a nice cassette deck........that was busted.

[Fast_Eddie]

great posts Jim and TA...
I think a seller subscription fee sounds very fair, maybe $25 a year?
im kinda new here but i love the site...great job to all who manage it! :thmbsp:

I'm pretty new here. I haven't got anything to sell, but maybe someday I will. I wouldn't want to have to pay a yearly fee to sell one item. I'd rather it be on a per item basis. Or maybe the option to do either. Flat fee for a whole year or a much smaller fee per item.

Just a suggestion from a nubie who isn't whining at all. Keep up the good work guys.

Ed

[OvenMaster]

I can't start a PayPal account because I'm one o' those rare birds without a credit card. I also don't have a helluva lot of money... the bank didn't want my account because the balance was too low. How can I send a small contribution to AK to keep the site running with a money order? This is the first website I've consistently visited that I think is worth spending my hard-to-come-by cash on. It might be just a few dollars, but hey, a million here, a million there, soon we're talking real money.
Tom

[EchoWars]

Your ideas are valid, but why penalize the giver with shipping and packing costs? You misread me. The seller is to be paid shipping and packing costs, and AK is to be paid the selling price.

[styler]

EW is the voice of reason. his suggestions make sense to me and seem fair. i've sold quite a few things here and appreciate the fact that i can trust those who buy and sell here, and know that if there's a problem it can be handled civilly. i personally think selling should not be free and that selling on AK should have some type of membership limitation. AK is growing like mad and the more it grows the greater the chance for shadey players. maybe a post barrier or a time barrier, maybe even both. on the other hand, audiogon's model seems pretty reasonable, you pay a fee, and buyer beware. it would be nice to have an added layer of safety, but even with audiogon, i've yet to be screwed over. a fee would give the site needed revenue, but does that change AK to a business?

i really like EWs suggestion of a donation forum for items with proceeds going to AK!

[Toasted Almond]

Echo IS one of the deep thinkers here, and I didn't thoroughly read his suggestion. It's a GREAT suggestion. I've got a bunch of stuff like that laying around, and if someone wanted it, the transaction would be good for all parties involved.

There are other great thinkers aboard, and I'm sure if these ideas get kicked around enough, solutions to the perceived problems would be equitable to all.

[styler]

And really, if you wanna talk about free- how many of you have gotten the technical know-how to fix your speakers as a result of posts I've made? That knowledge certainly wasn't free for me to learn... it's a result of over 20 years of work, and sometimes just plain trial-and-error effort. Look at my postings over the last year and a half, since I first registered here- at exactly HOW MANY of them (probably at least 50%) related to either helping someone find a part, or to some technique for repairing something that nobody else knew how to fix...


so much for altruism! you make your participation sound like a burden. if its not fun for you dont do it.

[ckelly]

If you dont like the current policy here, I stumbled upon the mother of all classified sites... it's called

www.ebay.com


CK

[EchoWars]

Gordon, the information you have shared is much appreciated and has gone a long way to help the site be the repository of knowledge that it is...please don't be so defensive.

[Toasted Almond]

Gordon, I've always enjoyed your posts AND your expertise. You're a knowledable guy and a heavy-hitter here in my opinion, but I do take exception with the one statement. You didn't charge your own kids for your expertise when you raised them did you? You didn't feel cheated because you weren't being paid for the time and effort did you?

Same goes here. You post solutions out of the kindness of your heart, and the hope that someday you'll MAYBE be repaid in kind.

[Shain]

To set the record straight.....

Toasted, you ain't no pretty face :no:

[Retro Stereo]

Gordon, I've always enjoyed your posts AND your expertise. You're a knowledable guy and a heavy-hitter here in my opinion, but I do take exception with the one statement. You didn't charge your own kids for your expertise when you raised them did you? You didn't feel cheated because you weren't being paid for the time and effort did you?

Same goes here. You post solutions out of the kindness of your heart, and the hope that someday you'll MAYBE be repaid in kind.


Yeah, what he said! TA, you da man! And this goes for EVERYBODY. Just think what the world would be like if we all took this attitude. You know, I'm feeling a John Lennon tune coming on.......


Retro

[Toasted Almond]

Shain, that was cruel. I'm going to go off and have a good cry now. Because of what YOU said. Don't try and stop me, it's too late for that.

OOOOHH! There goes my mascara again.

[zincman]

As someone who has voiced his opinion on previous posts on this subject, I hesitate to pipe off again, but I will. This is obviously a sensitive subject for this forum. I think if the owners and founders review the reasons for this forum and its goals maybe the solution will be a bit easier. As someone who has been a businessman for over 35 years, a nobel idea, are sometimes the most difficult to maintain. I have recently sent off my congrats to the founders for this site, and for one, truly appreciate the effort and vision it took and takes to keep it. But I don't think fees or limits will prevent the real profiteer from doing their business. Perhaps a fee for new members and free after a certain number of posts or time. And may I suggest as part of the sign up it should be made very clear what membership is vs. just looking. This is a great forum with some wonderful exchange of information and hope it continues. I would happily pay some sort of fee to become a member. By the way thanks to everyone who has given me advise, information or tips and oh yes even equipment. Man it just does not get any better.

[Toasted Almond]

Then let's not make it a noble idea! Let's just make it a rule!!

[RocknRoll]

How come non members and newbies have about the same privilage as contributing members? What is the restriction can't post or view large pictures?

[dan_clear]

I am a relative newcomer to this site having only been around for less than a year. I have never sold anything (or bought for that matter) from the classifieds. I am a lurker here for the most part. I read every post to every thread that I am interested in. I have learned much from many of you. For that I am extremely grateful. My hope is someday I will have the experience with vintage gear that I may someday "pay it forward".

When the 100 post limit came out a few weeks ago I was saddened. This place has always had comradarie and welcomed newcomers. IF I had a piece to sell it would take me years to make 100 posts. Of course, I could always make meaningless posts to reach 100 but that would not to anyone any good.

I have read the posts in this thread and in the spirit of compromise offer this possible solution.
1. Members should have to make a donation ($25 ?) to AK before you are allowed to sell items in the classified. Newbies should donate $25 or 10 % of asking price (if item is listed at less than $250) before items are to be listed. Once the $25 (?) has been met they will not have to pay the 10% of future items during the current year.

$25 is just a starting place. The adm may want to make it higher.
Those who don't want to or can't use paypal can just send a check to AK.
Since we are well into 2005, AK may want it to be a May 1 to April 30 year as opposed to a calendar year...another possibility is to make it on the member's anniverary daye with AK.

[tentoze]

......and how come there's no Brussels Sprouts Forum?????

But seriously folks- I just got back from 4 hour round trip to pick up some speaks, and I come to my favorite website and what do I see?

-People making some rather harsh value judgments.
-People getting their feelings hurt, justifiably or not.
-People whining about policy changes.
-People whining about other people whining about policy changes.

This subject is getting way too contentious for "All Audio, No Attitude."

I don't really have much of a dog in this race, because I've never sold a damned thing on AK, but I know when the laundry is getting ripe.

Obviously, as this thread clearly shows, there's no way to make every single member happy on this. I strongly suggest that the Admins define the policy clearly, publish it for all to see, and call the case closed. Then EVERYONE is subject to said policy and if you don't like it, peddle yr shit elsewhere.

[Toasted Almond]

I want 25 cents every time a lurker reads one of my posts. YOU GUYS READ THAT?

[Fisherdude]

Gordon, I've always enjoyed your posts AND your expertise. You're a knowledable guy and a heavy-hitter here in my opinion, but I do take exception with the one statement. You didn't charge your own kids for your expertise when you raised them did you? You didn't feel cheated because you weren't being paid for the time and effort did you?

Same goes here. You post solutions out of the kindness of your heart, and the hope that someday you'll MAYBE be repaid in kind.


There's so many threads going now on this topic it's getting tough to keep them all straight.

I don't think the knock on Gordon in another thread was justified, although I have to admit that since I don't spend a lot of time in the FS forum, I'm not up to speed on who sells what how often for how much. I do think Gordon has always been a regular and enthusiastic contributor who has taught me (and others too, I assume) a lot. As TA said, giving shouldn't have strings attached.

Bottom line, I think the various suggestions on how to deal with this are, collectively, the right approach. The last thing we want to do is throw the baby out with the bathwater. The site needs financial support, so selling, even for the members, probably shouldn't be totally free. Otoh, I don't think that a solution that burdens the mods with a boatload of tracking bookkeeping and followup, electronic or otherwise, would be a sustainable solution. Given that, I have a question for Luther...

Is it possible to set up a simple "on-line store" in vBulletin? If you could log into the "store" forum and list your items in a spreadsheet fill-in-the-box type of listing, then it would be possible to track, by our user ID, number of sales and dollars sold. If so, it would be possible to automate whatever solution is chosen by the mods, whether it's a limit on monthly/annual sales, or a required donation, or a required fee.

Or maybe I'm just complicating things. I think a required % donation to AK on all sales should be a given. Otherwise take it to eBay. However we do it, it needs to be simple for the sake of the mods' sanity!! :yes:

Clay

[jimbecky48001]

well said tentoze

[Shain]

To be serious for a moment :mad:

1. There should be a fee, a flat fee for putting an item up for sale. (weather
it sells or not) Paid by Paypal, or credit card

2. There should be a fee for listing to buy items.

3. The buyer pays shipping costs.

4. No commissions to AK.

5. No dispute resolution by AK

[Thatch_Ear]

WTB is going to cost?

[dan_clear]

I want 25 cents every time a lurker reads one of my posts. YOU GUYS READ THAT?
Ok, I am good cuz I NEVER read your posts, TA :smoke:

[Toasted Almond]

That'll be 25 cents in U.S. dollars please. 50 cents if your not reading this one as much as you didn't read the last one. When you "don't read" 100 of them please send the check for $25 to AK in my name.

All I got from you is one sentence but it told me a few things:

1. You think my posts aren't worth reading. I'm crushed.
2. You're cool because you use "cuz" instead of cause.
3. The little guy at the end of the sentence with the shades and the cigarette who didn't say ANYTHING, is smarter than you are.

[Fast_Eddie]

I am sorry that you won't be able to dump your stuff for free now!!! You are dumping the gear for the company you work for, for kripes sake!!! YOU SHOULD DONATE TO AK WITH ALL THE GEAR YOU HAVE SOLD ON THIS SITE - I know I have - HAVE YOU?

Dave

I should keep my big mouth shut. I know I'm new. I know I am not as informed about stuff as some of you guys. I know I don't have a lot of cool gear. But I do like this forum a lot. I bought a set of Wharfdale 70s on e bay for $70. I found this forum looking for information on my new find.

As soon as I posted that my speakers weren't working right, two AKers jumped in to help. One of them was Gordon W. He nailed the problem with my speakers, and it didn't cost me a dime to fix them. Why am I here several months later, now addicted to my new hobby? You do the math. (edit: the other was Thatch Ear- offered to sell me a driver for a really reasonable price- thanks again for the offer!)

I don't really know who runs AK, but I know what makes it special. Gordon W. isn't the only one, but he's a great example. Lets keep some perspective here. This looks to me to be a really cool group of folks who normally rise above this kind of personal attack. Lets try to keep it that way.

Sorry for being so outspoken,

Ed

[2DualsNotEnough]

I want 25 cents every time a lurker reads one of my posts. YOU GUYS READ THAT?
How about if I just give you 25 cents for every one of your posts that doesnt make me projectile vomit?Ill be up to a dollar in no time. :D :D :D
Jimmy

[grumpy]

No there will be no cost for WTB ads.

[Filmboydoug]

For clarification, will there be a fee for a free offer? And how much is the fee for a for sale ad?

[ckelly]

I feel this thread is running around in circles for thew time being, and will close it now.

As the new system comes to place, we will keep you all posted on how it will operate