View Full Version : Fisher cloth surrounds. Am I screwed??


Kahoona
05-26-2011, 07:30 PM
HI
I have created a problem for myself. Been that kind of day so far. I was just about to put a coat of oil on the cabs of these Fisher XP-5's that I have been restoring when I put my thumb through the cloth surround:no::no::no:. Has anybody here replaced one of these? If I can get them and do it I'm guessing that they needed it anyway since they were a git brittle but if not that would be sad. They were completed and now I hope they are not finished!:tears::tears::tears:

drknstrmyknight
05-26-2011, 08:47 PM
I would think you could dope those up with thinned silicone caulk and patch that with tear with some fine cloth in the process.

cubby01
05-26-2011, 08:51 PM
I might even try something like thin silk like they use for silkscreening draped across there and doped in with maybe a latex leather glue.

I'd recommend checking with GordonW. My guess is he's dealt with things like that.

Fisherdude
05-26-2011, 08:58 PM
Any kind of glue, like Aleen's Tacky Glue, would be worth a try.

boreas
05-26-2011, 09:07 PM
I'd try a patch made out of surgical gauze doped in place with Ailene's or thinned caulk. The gauze would have the least effect as far as making a locally stiff spot in the surround.

I'm puzzled by the condition of the cloth though. It didn't tear. It more or less "broke". I've never seen that happen before. It looks as if the surrounds may be rotting away, perhaps as a result of a chemical reaction with whatever was used to dope them originally.

John

Voltron
05-26-2011, 09:11 PM
I have used Aleene's tacky glue to retreat/reinforce older cloth surrounds. I thin the glue with water and use a small artists brush to paint the fabric. Delicate, but doable. Better too thin than too thick, an extra coat will compensate.

Have at it!

Kahoona
05-26-2011, 09:17 PM
I'd try a patch made out of surgical gauze doped in place with Ailene's or thinned caulk. The gauze would have the least effect as far as making a locally stiff spot in the surround.

I'm puzzled by the condition of the cloth though. It didn't tear. It more or less "broke". I've never seen that happen before. It looks as if the surrounds may be rotting away, perhaps as a result of a chemical reaction with whatever was used to dope them originally.

John

Yes. That made me wonder also. They are not supple and tough like the ones on the KLH's that I have but brittle and stiff. I have doped them with diluted Tacky Glue (as some have suggested in thee forums) and although it sealed them well enough it did nothing to soften them. Even if I had used silicone I don't think they would have gained strength. By the way if diluted Silicone caulk is used do you use clear or a matching color?

PioneerGuy75
05-26-2011, 09:39 PM
Replace with new foams? :scratch2:

Surely gotta be better than hard brittle old cloth...:scratch2:

boreas
05-26-2011, 09:40 PM
By the way if diluted Silicone caulk is used do you use clear or a matching color?

I use clear but I don't think it matters.

John

nick12345
05-26-2011, 10:46 PM
Odd that the tweeter is so far away from the woofer on those. You'd think they would have tried to keep the drivers closer together.

Back on topic, refoaming would certainly make them more pliable but might change the sound a little from when they were brand new. It's got to be better than what's there now, though.

DON73
05-27-2011, 12:41 PM
Simply Speakers might be able to help. I think they have a foam kit fot your XP 5s.

Kahoona
05-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Simply Speakers might be able to help. I think they have a foam kit fot your XP 5s.

Thanks for letting me know but they fit 5 7/8 to 6 and I have a 5 5/8 odd but thats life.

boreas
05-27-2011, 02:23 PM
I'd try the "bandaid" approach. It'll probably work and, at this point you've got nothing to lose..........

John

mikeybc
05-27-2011, 02:49 PM
Unless you trying to preserve them for some historic value refoam them and save yourself the grief. You could invert the foam surrounds and color them to keep the stock look

Copa1934
05-27-2011, 05:20 PM
HI
I have created a problem for myself. Been that kind of day so far. I was just about to put a coat of oil on the cabs of these Fisher XP-5's that I have been restoring when I put my thumb through the cloth surround:no::no::no:. Has anybody here replaced one of these? If I can get them and do it I'm guessing that they needed it anyway since they were a git brittle but if not that would be sad. They were completed and now I hope they are not finished!:tears::tears::tears:
If you don't mind, what is the actual OD of the cone (as close as you can get)? What is the OD of the surround (measure to the inside if the frame)? What is the width of the surround roll? I have a couple surrounds (foam) that appear to be very close. You can PM me if you like.

Kahoona
05-27-2011, 06:04 PM
Unless you trying to preserve them for some historic value refoam them and save yourself the grief. You could invert the foam surrounds and color them to keep the stock look

Not a bad idea! MSound is checking for either the real thing or a foam that would match the original stiffness better. Yhey know what they are doing so I'll wait and see. If the original is unavailable then I will try the gauze band aid first then use the closest foam. The thing is that they saoun very nice right now, I have been listening to some Grisman and the sound is just right and I want to keep them there,

woodj
05-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Hi
Never found anything that dilutes silicon caulk.
Siliconized vinyl maybe, but even with the silicon it will tend to harden over time.
?? about tacky glue, except it stiffens over time (of course that may the reason for the failure). Doping may have been done with something similar.
Methinks some kind of gauze and a gluing agent that stays pliable.
Butyl caulk and diluted with MEK might work, but that can get ugly in terms of fumes and coloration (depending on what color butelene you can get).

boreas
05-27-2011, 06:41 PM
The thing is that they saoun very nice right now, I have been listening to some Grisman and the sound is just right and I want to keep them there,

That's a good argument in favor of the bandaid. Even new original cloth surrounds will likely change the sound from what it is right now.

John

froogAL
05-27-2011, 07:28 PM
Don't fret kahoona;

This will all work out and you will have DIY satisfaction.

My housemate's cat tore the surround out of one of my ESS AMT1's in the early 80's before I knew anything and I freaked out. They've had two sets of foam since.

Aileen's fabric glue....great stuff...sure beats sewing patches on denim...similar to jewel glue.

I would invest in some actual speaker glue.....the white stuff that comes in an enema-looking squeeze bottle appx. 1 fl.oz. "My Audio Addiction" has good prices. That'll set you back around $15.00 delivered. Diluted with water it makes a thin wash to reinforce old dried vintage cones. A bead applied between the trim ring (4 pieces, not always present) and the cone eliminates some causes of buzzing. Likewise the dust cap (central circular dome thingy) can buzz as the original glue dries out.

This glue will hold your chosen patch in place. Use undiluted glue for your patch. The actual fabric material you pick should mix durability with compliance....don't rule out synthetic (plastic) fabric. It might be tricky training it into the shape of the existing folds of the periphery...but as it dries you can keep working it. Let it sit overnight and then give the entire fabric periphery area a wash of diluted glue....doing the entire cone will make it more durable with no audible difference that I've ever been able to detect......I do ramble on......froogAL

froogAL
05-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Now that I've actually looked at the pictures of your FISHERS they don't have folds or a 4 piece trim ring. Nevertheless consider using the "enema glue," ask your doctor and good luck.......froogAL

Kahoona
05-29-2011, 11:35 AM
Now that I've actually looked at the pictures of your FISHERS they don't have folds or a 4 piece trim ring. Nevertheless consider using the "enema glue," ask your doctor and good luck.......froogAL

ROFL I have a bottle of enema glue because I use prefer to use the Tacky Glue on surrounds so I set the "butt bottle" aside in case I find a use for it. At least now I know what it is good for. :scratch2: If it had been the folded stuff like JBL uses I suspect it would not have dried. This is more like the KLH cloth surrounds. Oddly I have a set of KLH 5's that I bought in the 80's and the surrounds are just as soft as the day I got them. These were owned by one family and handed down and I am guessing that sometime someone exposed one of them to damaging conditions out of Ignorance. The other one is better. The grills are both like new though. Odd.
After digesting all the info and consulting with the wizards at MSound I have ordered a foam that should come close to the properties I need but before I install it I will try the patch with cotton gauze and watered silicone caulk just to see what happens. I will probably put in the foam anyway since I have a feeling that the cloth will tear in time anyway.
BTW thanks for bringing back the memories. My first reform was a pair of ESS AMT 1's back in the 80's. Back then it was done with the dust cap on and attention to correct centering (You know-Uphill both ways in the snow) and they worked quite nicely for another 10 years.

froogAL
05-29-2011, 01:10 PM
You've returned the "memory lane" favor mon. After I learned that I could do the easy stuff myself I always cut the dustcaps off and used shims in the magnet gap for centering.

These days I find it easier to just adjust the centering as the glue sets and leave the orig. dustcap in place.

Maybe you can educate me here.......does replacing a solid paper dustcap with a mesh/vented type change anything sonically......At my typical listening levels I doubt than cooling matters at all.........froogAL

boreas
05-29-2011, 01:57 PM
This is more like the KLH cloth surrounds. Oddly I have a set of KLH 5's that I bought in the 80's and the surrounds are just as soft as the day I got them.

It could be that the material used to seal the surrounds is different from the butyl/toluene mixture KLH used and that over time it stiffens and even attacks the cloth. I don't expect Fisher - or, for that matter, KLH - expected us to still be listening to these speakers 40 - 50 years later.

These were owned by one family and handed down and I am guessing that sometime someone exposed one of them to damaging conditions out of Ignorance.

Or it could be that these were used with the grilles removed and exposure to the sun is what has damaged them.

The other one is better.

Maybe because it was in a darker part of the room?

The grills are both like new though. Odd.

Not odd if they were off the speakers and stuck in a closet. :dunno:

After digesting all the info and consulting with the wizards at MSound I have ordered a foam that should come close to the properties I need but before I install it I will try the patch with cotton gauze and watered silicone caulk just to see what happens.

Good luck! Let us know how they sound with the bandaid and especially after you refoam them.

John

Kahoona
06-02-2011, 10:08 AM
You've returned the "memory lane" favor mon. After I learned that I could do the easy stuff myself I always cut the dustcaps off and used shims in the magnet gap for centering.

These days I find it easier to just adjust the centering as the glue sets and leave the orig. dustcap in place.

Maybe you can educate me here.......does replacing a solid paper dustcap with a mesh/vented type change anything sonically......At my typical listening levels I doubt than cooling matters at all.........froogAL

I suspect that in most cases it would not change it so that you or I could hear. There are folks with sensitive instruments that could though so I still try to keep original. The exception may be with acoustic suspension with a vented rear where it might change the back pressure just like a leaking surround would.

Cactus Bob
06-02-2011, 10:20 AM
I just ordered this adhesive from Parts Express this week. I have a guitar amp speaker with some tears in the paper surround. They recommend it for tears etc.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=340-584

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/340-584_s.jpg

froogAL
06-03-2011, 02:27 AM
cactus Bob: you grabbed my attention with the Bill Evans quote. One of his final albums "We will meet again" with trumpeter extraordinaire Tom Harrell is on my top3 albums list. This is an unusual album out of the trio situation which for a musician of Bill Evans caliber is the default.

As for your guitar speakers are they by any chance old jensens? P12Q's or P12N's?

Don't push them too hard.

Nothing is garbage till you throw it away.

EASTYJAZ34
06-03-2011, 05:03 AM
cerwin vega can do some fat surrounds. ONLY if you dont mind red