Need an auto mechanic

[grumpy]

I need some help with this Bonneville. Any mechanics in the Detroit area. Needs to know Computers and replacement. Tracking electrical probs would be of great help to. Willing to pay cash or gear for help.

Grumpy

[Andyman]

Sorry Grumpy, I can't help with electrical issues. I usually do most of my own work, but if it's special tools or got me stumped, I take it to a shop nearby.

Have you got a real GM service manual for it? I've found Chilton's and Haynes to be way to general and lacking in info for most serious work.

Good Luck!!

[Rontech1]

I need some help with this Bonneville. Any mechanics in the Detroit area. Needs to know Computers and replacement. Tracking electrical probs would be of great help to. Willing to pay cash or gear for help.

Grumpy
What seems to be the problem Grumpy? I am not in Detroit but may be able to help guide you in the right direction to fix it yourself.
I am an ASE Master Tech, Volvo Master tech , work at a GM/Volvo dealership and specialize in electrical problems.

[grumpy]

My son is training at a local dealer so we have pulled the codes with his snap on code reader thingy mabobby. All my kid knows so far is Honda and has not a clue about Pontiac's. 3 codes that i think are the culprits of most of the cars problems are a VATS failure which i know is the Vehicle Anti theft, QDM Failure which i believe to be the ECM and a 02 sensor problem. I'm in over my head and no amount of Chilton's is gonna help my dumb ass..

I really need a shop but would rather ask for help here before taking it in.

[kc8adu]

qdm=ignition driver module quad driver.
o2 is screwed into the exhaust pipe near the engine.looks like a spark plug
a vacuum leak or other problems can set this code too.
the vats can be bypassed with a resistor if you dont want to mess with getting it fixed.

[Rontech1]

My son is training at a local dealer so we have pulled the codes with his snap on code reader thingy mabobby. All my kid knows so far is Honda and has not a clue about Pontiac's. 3 codes that i think are the culprits of most of the cars problems are a VATS failure which i know is the Vehicle Anti theft, QDM Failure which i believe to be the ECM and a 02 sensor problem. I'm in over my head and no amount of Chilton's is gonna help my dumb ass..

I really need a shop but would rather ask for help here before taking it in.
Grumpy, Good for your son. Hope he does well :thmbsp:
Vats codes: Most often the vehicle won't crank/start because one of the wires on the ign lock cyl is broken. If it is, you will need to replace the lock cyl and let the vats relearn the keys.
Get me the exact code and I will let you know what the problem is.
What I really need is the all the codes themselves, year and model of the car, and what engine it has .
QDM Is most likely a Quad Driver Module failure. You are right, it is in the ecm. Replacement ecm's are not really expensive, but you need to find out what torched it. Most often it is a shorted injector.
O2s failure is way down on list of worries unless heater is shorted.
Get me the codes and PM me and I will try to help you and your son fix it. :thmbsp:
Hope this helps.
Ron

[grumpy]

How about hooking up the battery back wards. Yes I have my son to thank for that one. I will pull every single code out tomorrow and if you like we can swap here on the board or on the phone if you have time. I sure could use some guidance badly ! Thanks

Grumpy

[Rontech1]

Battery hooked up backwards? Not good :no: Yeah get back to me with the codes and we can go from there.
Ron

[grumpy]

You want just the codes or all everything the puter spits out ?

[Rontech1]

The more info ypu can give me the better :thmbsp:
Ron

[grumpy]

Hes outside yanking codes as I type. should have them within minutes. Thanks

[opt80]

Hi Grumpy,
Not doing a hijacking here,but I PMed Ron about my PIA,I mean KIA.He offered valued info that I passed on to KIA today.Ron knows his stuff,if he can fix my car via PM I am sending him something electronic

Alan

[grumpy]

Here it is from the Snap On MTG2500 Graphing scanner
The Car is a 1994 Pontiac Bonneville SSE with the 3800 Motor. Auto Trans and AC.

Engine Test

Data only OK to drive
RPM 800-850
2 OS (ms) 438 fuel
No Codes available in this mode

Open/Close Ehaust Oxygen rich * ( Denotes Light 1 flashing )
TPS(V) 0.50
Throtle % 0
LT Trim 128
Trim Cell 0
IAC Position 54
o2 Cross Count 0
Airflow (gm/sec) 7
Desired Idle 775
EGR Pos % 0
Desired EGR % 0
EGR VLV Pos (v).66
Cam/Crank Error 3
CCP Duty Cycle 0
CCP Solenoid Off
Engine RPM 851
Boost Sol % 0
N/V Ratio 0
Weak Cyl None
Base PW (ms) 5.1
Spark Advance 23 deg
Load/LV8 71
Knock No
Knock Retard Coolant Temp 5o C
MAP("C) 31
Cooling Fan Off
Trans Fluid 28 C
AC Clutch Off
AC Request No
AC Pressure High
QDM 1 Fault Yes
QDM 2 Fault No
QDM 4 Fault Yes
PRNDL SW 4th
Command Gear 1
Shift Solenoid A On
Shift Solenoid B On
P/N Switch R-DL
2nd Gear P1
3rd Gear P1
4th Gear P1
Battery (v) 14.1
VEH Speed 0
TCC Slip RPM 254
TCC Duty % 0
TCC Break Switch Open
CC Mode Off
Cruise Mode Off
ACT CC Servo % 18
DES CC Servo 0
CC On Off Switch Off
CC Res/ACC sw Off
CC Set/CST off
CC Vacuum Solenoid Off
CC Vent Sol Off
CC Break Switch Clsd
Prom ID 4814
VATS Problem No
Time 1:12

[Rontech1]

Grump,
Great info, just what I needed. :banana: However there are no DTC's listed here. They will be in a Poxxxx style. Can you PM me with the DTC's and the vehicle vin #?
So the vehicle is running at this point. That is good. I was really worried when you said battery was hooked up backwards. Yikes can that sometimes cause MAJOR expensive problems. How does the car run? Missing? Poor idle? Shift ok? Any work or repairs done to vehicle just before this all started?
What I will do is get the diag tree for you Monday and PM you with it. That will help you enormously.
At this point the only thing I see wrong (9:00 am Sunday, fighting a hangover) is the the qdm faults. and O2s. Showing rich all the time. However the O2 fault could be from some other problem. For example, the O2 showing rich all the time due to a leaking injector and unable to bring to desired mixture. Gut feeling is a Fuel Injector problem at this point, but do not have the wiring diagram here at home.
VATS is showing no fault at this time and vehicle starts=disregard at this point.
Alan, Thanks for the kind words.
Alan and Grumpy, No pay needed or wanted. 1st, I have not fixed anything yet and second I have learned so much from AK that I am more than happy to try and give something back to you all.
I wonder if there would be any interest in a short thread in Off Topic about how a modern generic Fuel/Emission system works in Fuel Injected cars. :scratch2:
OK on to my next cup of coffee and 3 aspirin :D
Ron

[RichPA]

I wonder if there would be any interest in a short thread in Off Topic about how a modern generic Fuel/Emission system works in Fuel Injected cars.

I for one would be interested in this - I had just about figured out carburetors back when they disappeared ...

[grumpy]

Ron

I will PM you the VIN but what is DTC ?

The history on the car is spotty at best. I bought it as non running. The battery was hooked up backwards by my kid a couple of weeks ago. However we did get the car running.

Its was running half way decent and even idling but not so well anymore. The couple of times i did drive the car it seems to shift nice. Last time it was driven was for a couple of blocks and it died and would not start again. Seemed like there was fuel pressure but no spark but what do i know ( I mean that )

There was some cylinder knocking codes and a couple of others but I changed the plugs,wires, air filter and Pcv. After that my kid cleared out all the codes from the computer and the codes above are what we are left with.

What puzzles me is fuse for the door locks blew on me shortly after replacing it. To be honest everything about this car is confusing to me. Gimme my 92 chevelle to work on any day of the week over this thing. Again your help is mucho appreciated.

[Rontech1]

DTC = Diagnostic Trouble Code. Your Snap on reader should give you them.
It will say something like PO xxxx purge valve solonoid sigal too low or something like that. I don't use the Snap On so I have to guess as to what it will say. We have the GM TechII and the Volvo VIDA/Vadis machine.
Just got off the phone to my shop foreman about this. I will get the wiring diagram and find out what is driven by the QDM1 and 4 circuit. He did not know right off hand what all is on those QDM's either.
Hang on to the Snap on tester. We will need that to command things on and off while finding the QDM problem.
The door lock problem should be a seperate issue. If the fuse blew as soon as you installed it, that would be a dead short on the supply side of the door lock/courtesy circuit. The circuit feeds bat+ to the door lock switch's, which in turn the switch's feed reversing DC motor's in each door to operate the door locks.
Without the wiring diagram in front of me, I would check and see if there is a penny or something like that in one of the cig lighter's first. I know it sounds odd, but most of the time when I have to find a short in that circuit that is what I find. Kid's will put anything in anyplace in a vehicle. Not saying your kid did it but maybe previous owner. Sometimes spare change is thrown on the console and falls down into the lighter socket. I will also get the diagram for that circuit.
I had to replace a 900.00 cd deck in a 2004 Volvo xc90 because the owners kid had put almost 23 pennies in the cd drive slot :lmao:
You can do this my friend, I have complete confidence in you. It will take some work but we will get it done. :thmbsp:
And it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than shop labor rate. I would guess the average in your area is 90.00/hour. Plus you get to learn how it works.
Late model vehicles are becoming almost unbelievably complex. An example of that would be: Most premium foriegn cars such as Volvo, MB, BMW, etc, use what is called a CANBUS (Controller Area Network BUS by Volvo) network where each of the modules in the vehicle are networked together using a high speed and low speed circuit. A CEM ( Central Electronic Module) is the traffic cop for the up to 24 different modules on the CANBUS. GM and the domestics are just now going to it. Picture your server there at AK and the headaches it can give you. Now put all that in a rolling, vibrating, 20 below zero to 160 above environment. Software runs it all.
Fortunatly your Pontiac is very early in this design. Not nearly as complicated, but still quite sophisticated in how it works over the older points and carb units. Remember the feedback carbs? YIKES!!!
However, if you stop and think about it, it is quite amazing that these late model vehicle's, when performing correctly will start and run the same way if it is 20 below or 110 in the shade, put out 100 hp per liter of displacement, and still meet ULEV emmision levels.
Maybe I will do the theory thread in Off Topic, or wherever it would be most appropiate. It will be long though.
Ron

[Rontech1]

Guys,
Have not forgotten about this. Had a hell of storm here ( Springfield IL)last night. Still cleaning up from it. We got by ok, but brother in law did not.
Going back to my brother in laws now to try and salvage what we can. I will try and upload a picture of his apartment tomorrow. Large oak tree went completely through the kitchen roof.
Will have info about Grumpy's vehicle tomorrow.
Ron

[SPL db]

Ron,

Excellent thread!

I'd be more than happy to read anything that you wish to write! :D

I'm an old shade tree mechanic from way back... been wrenching on
cars now for more than 25 years...

I've been reading up on all the new technology to try and keep current,
but nowhere near ASE level!

Hope everything works out well for your brother-in-law!

By the way, Grumpy listed his Chevelle as a 92 when he meant a 72

Scott

[DanTana]

Gear??? Maybe I should drive up to Michigan :)

[Rontech1]

Grumpy,
QDM 1 driver operates the boost control solenoid, evap purge control solenoid and the torque convertor clutch solenoid pull in coils. Check the fuse for the cruise control in the relay center under the hood first. It will be a 15 amp fuse.
QDM 4 operates the a/c clutch relay pull in coil, low speed and high speed cooling fan relay coils. Check the the 10 amp cooling fan/tcc fuse in the fuse block.Most likely it is this one, seeing as there is also a qdm4 fault also.
QDM 1 fault will turn on the check engine light. QDM 4 fault will not turn it on.
This should get you started. I will check back after work tonight.
Ron

[grumpy]

Will check those out today. Thanks !

[grumpy]

Oh one more question. Where on this car will the the computer be. I wanted to clean the connectors since I'm sorta anal about that stuff.

[bolly]

good idea grumpy :yes:

[Rontech1]

Oh one more question. Where on this car will the the computer be. I wanted to clean the connectors since I'm sorta anal about that stuff.
Should be behind right front kick panel: ie to the right of where the front seat passengers feet would be. There are 3 connectors on it, red, white and blue :thmbsp:
Be SURE ign off before disconnecting. Never seen any corroded yet, but I have not seen everything. About the only way they could corrode is if the windshield was leaking. No evidence of that I hope.
How about any DTC's for me? Get them before disconecting the PCM. On the Snap on scanner there should be a section that says some thing like " Read DTC" or " Get DTC", something like that. If there is a fault they should lead us right to it.
Ron

[gyusher]

DTC = Diagnostic Trouble Code. Your Snap on reader should give you them.

It will say something like PO xxxx purge valve solonoid sigal too low or something like that.

I don't use the Snap On so I have to guess as to what it will say. We have the GM TechII and the Volvo VIDA/Vadis machine.

Just got off the phone to my shop foreman about this. I will get the wiring diagram and find out what is driven by the QDM1 and 4 circuit. He did not know right off hand what all is on those QDM's either.

Hang on to the Snap on tester. We will need that to command things on and off while finding the QDM problem.

The door lock problem should be a seperate issue. If the fuse blew as soon as you installed it, that would be a dead short on the supply side of the door lock/courtesy circuit. The circuit feeds bat+ to the door lock switch's, which in turn the switch's feed reversing DC motor's in each door to operate the door locks.

Without the wiring diagram in front of me, I would check and see if there is a penny or something like that in one of the cig lighter's first. I know it sounds odd, but most of the time when I have to find a short in that circuit that is what I find. Kid's will put anything in anyplace in a vehicle. Not saying your kid did it but maybe previous owner. Sometimes spare change is thrown on the console and falls down into the lighter socket. I will also get the diagram for that circuit.

I had to replace a 900.00 cd deck in a 2004 Volvo xc90 because the owners kid had put almost 23 pennies in the cd drive slot :lmao:

You can do this my friend, I have complete confidence in you. It will take some work but we will get it done. :thmbsp:

And it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than shop labor rate. I would guess the average in your area is 90.00/hour. Plus you get to learn how it works.

Late model vehicles are becoming almost unbelievably complex. An example of that would be: Most premium foriegn cars such as Volvo, MB, BMW, etc, use what is called a CANBUS (Controller Area Network BUS by Volvo) network where each of the modules in the vehicle are networked together using a high speed and low speed circuit.

A CEM ( Central Electronic Module) is the traffic cop for the up to 24 different modules on the CANBUS. GM and the domestics are just now going to it. Picture your server there at AK and the headaches it can give you. Now put all that in a rolling, vibrating, 20 below zero to 160 above environment. Software runs it all.

Fortunatly your Pontiac is very early in this design. Not nearly as complicated, but still quite sophisticated in how it works over the older points and carb units. Remember the feedback carbs? YIKES!!!

However, if you stop and think about it, it is quite amazing that these late model vehicle's, when performing correctly will start and run the same way if it is 20 below or 110 in the shade, put out 100 hp per liter of displacement, and still meet ULEV emmision levels.

Maybe I will do the theory thread in Off Topic, or wherever it would be most appropiate. It will be long though.
Ron

Ahh now I can read it too. . . A lot of good information here. . . good common sense. . .

[grumpy]

Ran out to buy 20 bucks worth of them damn mini fuses. Also got a new fuel pump relay and a new flasher blinker. Raining now so will change them tomorrow and see what codes she throws.

[Rontech1]

Good for you about the fuses, but be careful about buying non-returnable parts like relays. They are easily tested and most of them have the wiring diagram printed on them. Pull one out and look at the side of it and see if it is not embossed in it.
As for tools to use for diag on electrical/electronic circuits, most of you likely have one of them now, a good high impedence digital volt/ohm meter. Use this on all control ( ex relay coils. ) circuits and sensor ( ex temp sender, crank/cam sensor) circuits.
The other tool for electrical diag to have is a good 12 volt test light. Not the kind they have at the checkout counter at the hardware store. Sears sells a good one. Of course Snap on Matco and mac tools sell good ones, and they would love to sell you one. Expect to spend about 25.00 + for it. This will be used for circuits that have a consumer or load on it. Ex: exterior lighting, cooling fans, etc. The reason you would use a test light instead of a Volt meter is , for example,a multi strand wire with, say, 12 strands in it is powering a headlight, but 10 of those strands are broken. If you check it with a volt meter it will tell you there is bat+ ( nom 13.2) on it. Must be a bad bulb huh if the ground is good. Nope not enough wire there for the amp flow needed to operate it. If you check it with a test light, that will load the circuit. If the test light lites, now you are reasonably sure that the wiring is ok.
On the other hand if you use a test light to test a pull in coil circuit on a relay, it will ground the coil and pull in the relay. Or if you test a temp sensor circuit with it it will skew the results. Most sensor circuits use 5 volt ref voltage and read the return voltage at the ecm/pcm.
Well, let me know what you find out tomorrow and we will go from there.
Ron

[Matt]

Dont be to eager to clean connectors, A lot of manufacturers use a type of grease in the connector housing to keep corrosion out. Also alot of signal connectors are so dense that you really cant clean them up.

[grumpy]

I am out of patience. Between my kid not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground with this scanner and these freaking intermittent electrical problems I give up. No Mas !

[Rontech1]

I am out of patience. Between my kid not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground with this scanner and these freaking intermittent electrical problems I give up. No Mas !
Whoa, Easy there big guy. :D

That MTG2500 can be very daunting to use. I looked it up on Snap On's sight and it is a very powerful tool. And like anything else that sophisticated, the wealth of info it can give is there, but may be somewhat difficult to get to on the tool because of it. First will the car still start and run at all? If it does and you can drive it, the nearest Autozone will pul DTC's for you no charge.
And if your son is new to it, it may take some time or maybe even dad to look at the manual.
Remember the story of the old bull and the young bull :thmbsp:
And these intermittant elec problems. What do you mean? If you are talking about the power door locks let's forget about those for awhile and concentrate on the driveability problems.
And Matt is correct about the dielectric grease in the connectors at the pcm.
And Grumpy, you have a PM from me.
Ron

[DanTana]

Concentrate on one problem at a time, until you weed them all out.

[grumpy]

HOT FREAKING DAMN. ITS ALIVE !!!!


Ain't perfect but Its running and a couple of the problems are solved. A great big thank you goes out to Ron. He was of great help and encouragement. Also I lucked out and dragged a Club Bonneville member over to my place who was up to the task and we both spent the last 8 hours working on it. And finally my boob of a kid Matt.

A long way to go but at least a couple of hurdles are out of the way.

Grumpy

[ProAc_Fan]

HOT FREAKING DAMN. ITS ALIVE !!!!


Also I lucked out and dragged a Club Bonneville member over to my place who was up to the task and we both spent the last 8 hours working on it.

Grumpy


Shh Grumpy don't broadcast that. It's called forcible confinement. :yes:


Mike

[skippy_ps]

Good deal, G. Matt's just learning. I can't tell you how much stuff I broke, bent, cracked or burned up when I was a kid learning basic auto repair. :D

Murray

[grumpy]

I reached my limits with the Bonneville and sold it the other day. Can you say money pit ?

Every time I turned around it needed another sensor that was a BITCH to get to or cost a left nut. I was putting in 8 hour days on this thing like a full time job.

Got what i paid for it and then some. Alls well that ends well...

[opt80]

Hey Ron,I took my car to another mechanic,they couldn't solve the prob either.

Funny thing when it is very hot in the AM she'll start first crank,on a cool morning it takes a couple of cranks.

Someone suggested,decarbonizing but that would be an expensive deal,having to take apart each cyl.

Regards

Alan who hates Kia

[DanTana]

Dripping water down the carb while the engine runs will help decarbonize the cylinders, the steam loosens the carbon and it goes out the exhaust.

[CarlV]

Hey Ron,I took my car to another mechanic,they couldn't solve the prob either.

Funny thing when it is very hot in the AM she'll start first crank,on a cool morning it takes a couple of cranks.

Someone suggested,decarbonizing but that would be an expensive deal,having to take apart each cyl.

Regards

Alan who hates Kia
If nobody has taken apart the Idle Speed Control motor (ISC) and cleaned it that could well be your problem. They are to fully open cold and give you your "cold fast idle". After 70-80,000(120k?) they get varnished up and stick giving you the symptoms you describe. Less scrupulous types will sell a new one. Just a thought.

Carl

[opt80]

Thanks Carl and Dan

Alan