Looks like Steve Deckert of Decware (home of the little ZEN SE84) is finally releasing his new push-pull amp - the Zen Torii:

http://www.decware.com/torii/torii023sm.jpg

A prototype of the amp was auditioned at a recent get-together and received some positive initial responses. It is said that the amp has the sonic signature of a SET with the power of a PP with a significant sounstage - commonly associated with SET designs.

15 watts per channel

Telsa EL34's with the blue glass

Turquoise blue powder coat finish

Turn around will be 3 to 4 weeks

Price about $1,295 (not finalized yet)

I think some AudioKarma members have heard the prototype, but I'm not sure who...anyway, looks quite interesting.

Regards,

~Michael~

What "get-together" were you referring to? MikE

Originally posted by MikE
What "get-together" were you referring to? MikE

I think it was the "Caintucket Fest" or something like that. I believe Steve and Devon were there with some folks from the Decware forum - as well as Ed Schilling.... If I remember correctly Steve brought the amp to that meeting.

Ooooh...Ahhhh,

Hi all...I was going to do a post this evening about my "just not being sure" if going the SET route is right for me. At first, I thought I would use a SET system for just Jazz and Acoustic, etc. however...due to the SET limited power,cost of amp, and (to truly get the best performance)...new EFFICENT speakers...I just don't know. Am I wrong in my thinking that a SET set up would be rather limiting? That is to say...do I want to spend THOUSANDS on a system that I can not CRANK on the likes of BILL MILLER? Also, I started thinking...God...I have PERFECTLY
wonderful speakers in my PIONEER HPM 100's and CS 911's as well as my KEF 102's Reference Monitor and my THIEL 03A's.
Do I REALLY want to invest in NEW single driver speakers just so I can try a SET? (believe me, if I found a pair of CORNWALLS locally at a good price....I would snap them up!) Anyway...I am now thinking more along the lines of a PP amp as I DO want to own tubes. Bottom line...I am beginning to think that a PP amp would serve me better for my situation. I wonder if this is why DECWARE is now going to produce a PP amp? (for guys like me!). SixCats!

Originally posted by SixCats!
Ooooh...Ahhhh,

...I am beginning to think that a PP amp would serve me better for my situation. I wonder if this is why DECWARE is now going to produce a PP amp? (for guys like me!). SixCats!

SixCats!

I am sure this was part of Steve's thinking process. This amp should work fine with at least some - if not all of your speakers. I haven't heard this particular amp - but Steve indicated that it retained the nice sonic signature of his SET amps. In specific he wrote this about the Torii: "If you were a Zen amp owner and came into my shop tonight you would probably not be able to tell you were listening to a push pull except for the balls. Imagine having a Zen amp with larger balls! This is a close as you're going to get.".

Personally I don't need the power - my SE84 is more than enough for my particular setup - but I'm curious about upcoming reviews later in the year. PP amps can sound wonderful - among my favorites is the Airtight ATM-1. This however is less cost-effective than the Deckert line of amps.

Regards,

~Michael~

Now, why exactly would Steve "that first magical watt" Deckert want to build a 15wpc PP amp?

I am both amused and bemused...

Originally posted by mhardy6647
Now, why exactly would Steve "that first magical watt" Deckert want to build a 15wpc PP amp?

I am both amused and bemused...

I suspect to widen his customer base to include those who own less efficient speakers or speakers with complex crossover designs. I would probably do the same if I wanted to increase my earning potential. Cary Audio manufactures both SET and PP amps and this does not seem confusing - despite the fact that their little CAD-2A3-SE and CAD-300SE Signature have quite the cult following. And why not - live and let live - more power to all these guys.

~M~

If one were as intrigued by DH SET as I was and went ahead and compromised by going PP due to various factors such as speaker efficiency etc---well, I was never completely fullfilled by the PP system and finally went all SET. The resale losses were not outrageous but they were not insubstantial either. I had failed to follow my own instincts...


"If you were a Zen amp owner and came into my shop tonight you would probably not be able to tell you were listening to a push pull except for the balls. Imagine having a Zen amp with larger balls! This is a close as you're going to get.".

I know Decware has a well founded and knowledgable following, but I can't stand his hype.

I design and manufacture both SET and PP. A couple of PPs are so good it is scary. I think using SETs for a midrange reference helps. I can't vouch for Decwares as I haven't heard it, but more power does allow for general speakers to be used. The potential weaknesses of SETs, bass and highs, slowness, syrupy, are not necessarily so for PP. IMHO, the best PPs are right there at the door, if not better, with SETs when it comes to overall sonics over the entire audio band.

I thought you were referring to the "CainFest" I attended. Yes, Steve had a prototype of the "Torii" at the 'Fest but honestly I don't recall ever hearing it. I know we listened to his ZEN triode amp along side my 45 Moth and Ed Schilling's 2a3 Fi X. I must say the amp looks sweet and you gotta love the blue glass!

MikE

Originally posted by MikE
I thought you were referring to the "CainFest" I attended. Yes, Steve had a prototype of the "Torii" at the 'Fest but honestly I don't recall ever hearing it. I know we listened to his ZEN triode amp along side my 45 Moth and Ed Schilling's 2a3 Fi X. I must say the amp looks sweet and you gotta love the blue glass!

MikE


MikE - that must have been the name of the fest then - it was the one at Randy's house. He posted pics of the first prototype on his little website along with a number of others (your amp was shown - which I still find to be a beautiful piece - so much so I had one of the pics of your Moth as Window background). Even the Moth shipping crate looks cool. Now THAT amp is interesting to me! Back to topic....

Some initial impressions were made by several members and if I remember correctly from the posts on the Decware board. The amp even went to a few residences later on for individual testing.

Anyway - it would be interesting to hear it - especially since it's sound is said to resemble that of a SET type amp. I too like the look of the tubes.

sasaki - you said you don't like Steve's hype - I'm not defending the man - he sold me an amp once - that's it - but I don't think he's hyping anything. He might be enthusiastic and proud of his work, but there is nothing wrong with that. In the final analysis I don't think you like him or his amps for whatever personal reasons - and that's perfectly OK - all of us have likes and dislikes. I like to take a prudent approach whenever capable and remain emotionally unattached to view things as objectively as possible. I thought the news of a new tube amp by a respected manufacturer might be of interest to audio enthusiasts and thus provide a positive contribution to the message board and it's members. I don't generally write things to ruffle other people's feathers. ;)

~Michael~

Originally posted by positron
I design and manufacture both SET and PP. Some PPs are so good it is scary. I think using SETs for midrange reference helps. I can't vouch for Decwares as I haven't heard it, but more power does allow for less efficient speakers to be used. The potential weaknesses of SETs, bass and highs (the midrange magic), slowness, syrupy, are not necessarily so for PP. IMHO, PP will do nothing but get better, as newer and better designs come forth.

I've been to your website a few times - your amp designs look very interesting. Unfortunately in previous searches on message boards I was unable to find conclusive opinions or reviews about either your PP or SET designs. Have any of your models by chance been reviewed?

Thanks,

~Michael~

Micheal, I guess I was out to lunch. Steve's prototype was at the CainFest and I even took a picture of it! Yes, now that I think about it, we did listen to the amp along with the other SET amps. Honestly, I wasn't impressed. It didn't appear to have "more balls" than the SETs and it didn't have that quality that I enjoy so much in the Moth. Caveat: I didn't care too much for the other (SET) amps either and take my comments with a grain of salt. While this get-together was fun, there was alot of switching between amps, speakers and front-ends so it was hard to get a handle on things. All I know is when we hooked up the Moth to Dave's Heil / Peerless custom speaker that made me sit up and take notice!

MikE

Originally posted by MikE
I didn't care too much for the other (SET) amps either and take my comments with a grain of salt. While this get-together was fun, there was alot of switching between amps, speakers and front-ends so it was hard to get a handle on things. All I know is when we hooked up the Moth to Dave's Heil / Peerless custom speaker that made me sit up and take notice!

MikE

Meetings like this are a lot of fun in terms of human fellowship and exchange of ideas, but I suspect they are not optimum for critical evaluation unless something really stands out in one's mind - like the above mentioned combo. As with many impressions - "De Gustibus Non Est Disputantum"

Example: Richard George did a review on the Mapletree Audio Octal 6 preamp (which was positive) and suggested it was sonically a poor match for the SE84 - and that's the combo I use and love. Actually, a dear friend and fellow audiophile concurred that the Octal 6 was a good match after some testing and actually significantly improved performance on my particular system. There you have it - two diametrically opposed conclusions on similar systems (RGs turntable employed a DV20 as well).

Of course I do use different tubes and employed after market power cords, which may play into the variable. I also spend many months tweaking my system with isolation and power related items (mostly from hardware stores).

I suspect you are used to and appreciate the tonality of your Moth - and anything dissimilar may not have a positive impact on the neurotransmitters (those darn precursor proteins!). But rest assured, when you get tired of the sound I'll gladly take the thing off your hands :D

One final point, Deckert stated he made some further changes to the amp since the meet, but I suspect the overall tonality will be the same.

~Michael~

Michael, thanks for visiting my site. Yes, Rich Weiner at BFS has reviewed my SETs (see manufacturer and customer review pages), and is now reviewing the 10A phono stage, upgraded 10A line preamp again, and 30WPT amp for the first time. The 30WPT is the newest amp I have designed and finally got ready this past year. There is very little difference between my SETs and PPs except what is due to the higher damping factor of the PP. I will check Rich's review out and decide if I need to do any revisions.

The 10A line preamp has been reviewed the most, by customers, and been compared to alot of other brands.

I delivered the three pieces to Rich June 20th and he already had some other components to check out, so I am hoping a print in the next month or so.

I think there is alot of scepticism about PP, don't blame anyone after some I have heard over the years, but I think newer PP designs are getting closer and closer to SETs in the midrange, and may be better in overall sonics as the bass distortion is much lower and thus much less synthetic/false bass produced.
Take care Michael.

>sasaki - you said you don't like Steve's hype - I'm not defending the man - he sold me an amp once - that's it - but I don't think he's hyping anything. He might be enthusiastic and proud of his work, but there is nothing wrong with that. In the final analysis I don't think you like him or his amps for whatever personal reasons - and that's perfectly OK - all of us have likes and dislikes. I like to take a prudent approach whenever capable and remain emotionally unattached to view things as objectively as possible. I thought the news of a new tube amp by a respected manufacturer might be of interest to audio enthusiasts and thus provide a positive contribution to the message board and it's members. I don't generally write things to ruffle other people's feathers.
~Michael~<

I met Steve Deckert at the Cainfest and was quite impressed with him. I've never considered his writing to be hype, it's more just excitable writing about what he is thinking at the time. Kinda like Harvey Rosenberg, but not as radical. I enjoy reading both.

As for the new pp amp, I also heard it at the Cainfest. The conditions there were not suitable for making any kind of judgement. Too much noise (talking) and switching speakers and amps.
Yes, the Moth sounded great on Randy's custom Heil/Peerless speakers, but the new Decware was not hooked to these that I recall, so a comparison can't be made (of course, I might have missed it if it was hooked to these). I heard it on the Hammers and Pi-2's, and I think it was hooked to The Horns.
BTW, I don't own any Decware products.
Dave
:)

Now, why exactly would Steve "that first magical watt" Deckert want to build a 15wpc PP amp?

I am both amused and bemused...



the first watt thing is for real- his push pull amp most likely has the best sounding first watt, of any push pull amp made in that price range- the guy has a good ear, and knows what he's doing

now, for a reason- his forum became infested with snobby push-pull fans, many of which were trolls and flame posters, and could not recognize actual soundstage and imaging, if it hit them in the head- instead of being a haven for single ended fans, it became a push-pull hangout- a bunch of guys who spent too much money on their 50-100 watt push-pull tube stereos, and got insulted any time someone raved about a good sounding 6 watt amp

it reminded me of Sean Hannity's right wing political site, which is infested with left wing people attacking everyone

so he's basically catering to his forum members and their peer pressure- I seriously doubt the Torii amps sell as many units as the Zen/Taboo/etc.

there's also marketing demand, it balances out his product line nicely, and one can make as much profit on one Cadillac, as one makes on 5 Chevrolets- he's doing this for a living, so he has to make money at it

but it's also kind of a sellout, as he was the foremost extant of single ended sound at one time

there's also the possibility, he's just pushed the single ended envelope as far as possible, and needed a new challenge- there's no doubt in my mind, his push pull deal sounds as sweet as a push-pull amp can sound, and better than any in that price range

having said that, if I was going to buy a new push pull tube amp, it would be from Steve Deckert

rest assured, that Tori, will sound good- but IMHO, not worth the restocking charge and shipping both ways (around $350 lost if returned for refund after being auditioned), if it didn't sound $2500 good

what on earth led you to respond to a 4-1/2 year-old thread?

If one were as intrigued by DH SET as I was and went ahead and compromised by going PP due to various factors such as speaker efficiency etc---well, I was never completely fullfilled by the PP system and finally went all SET. The resale losses were not outrageous but they were not insubstantial either. I had failed to follow my own instincts...

Quote:
"If you were a Zen amp owner and came into my shop tonight you would probably not be able to tell you were listening to a push pull except for the balls. Imagine having a Zen amp with larger balls! This is a close as you're going to get.".

I know Decware has a well founded and knowledgable following, but I can't stand his hype.



(LOL) I know this is an old thread, but this is funny...just like everyone was "kicking their vintage push pull amps to the curb" to buy the original Zen amp

they may have been selling them, rather than kicking them- and selling them for good money too

vintage always outsells new on resale- you can make money on vintage, you lose your arse on new

what on earth led you to respond to a 4-1/2 year-old thread?




same thing that would make me listen to 40 year old audio equipment...:music:


actually,

I've been researching the Decware Torii amps- I guess you picked up on the same thing I did, some time ago- Steve Deckert was a big proponent of single ended amps for years, then all of a sudden he turns 180 degrees and goes push-pull, and declares it's the amp he always wanted to build

when I first saw it in his lineup back when, I just thought he was offering it to the high power, bass-hit crowd. But recently I read the design notes on the Torii Mk II, and it sounds like he has become a push-pull devotee.

what the heck happened there ? I can only speculate.

Now, why exactly would Steve "that first magical watt" Deckert want to build a 15wpc PP amp?

I am both amused and bemused...

hey-Hey!!!,
Maybe this thread is aged well enough to be useful.

Maybe he's found what a few experimenters already have: well designed and built PP doesn't give up anything to SE. I like the PP amps I have built. I suppose it would be possible to build a SE amp I could live with. In order to catch that event when and if it happens, I will continue listening to everything I can get my ears around...:) when I find this unlikely amp, rest assured I will go to work on a version for myself. In the meantime, I'll be needing power finals in quads.
cheers,
Douglas

I'm happy drinking my coffee and having a listen to either.
Both have their finer points.
Douglas, I'm with you, it's hard to beat quad KT88s in a PP.
Modded Aronov LS 9100s in house... (and they keep you warm in the winter).

I actually went back to push-pull myself (EICO HF-81) after a long SE sojurn.

An SE-84B was my first modern single-ended amp. It was OK but weak in the bass and not powerful enough for Klipsch Cornwalls. It was replaced with a pair of Bottlehead Paramours (SE 2A3) which were far superior sonically. The SE-84B is in its original shipping box in my attic. It would probably make a nice MR/HF amp in a bi-amp'ed system.

[QUOTE=pocketchange;1281578]I'm happy drinking my coffee and having a listen to either.
Both have their finer points.
QUOTE]


agreed

I actually went back to push-pull myself (EICO HF-81) after a long SE sojurn.

An SE-84B was my first modern single-ended amp. It was OK but weak in the bass and not powerful enough for Klipsch Cornwalls. It was replaced with a pair of Bottlehead Paramours (SE 2A3) which were far superior sonically. The SE-84B is in its original shipping box in my attic. It would probably make a nice MR/HF amp in a bi-amp'ed system.



I also tried a Zen 84 rev B, for $250 used. The Akai M8 sounded noticeably better in B2B tests- more volume, more precise soundstage, more detail. So I sold the Zen. Regardless, the Zen is a good amp for someone wanting a new amp with a guarantee, that they don't have to fiddle with- just plug and play- for under $800 entrance fee.

IMHO, an SE stereo amp needs 2 monoblocks, one for each stereo channel- with choke regulated PST and tube rectifier in each channel. When the power supply circuit is "shared" between 2 stereo channels, the sound degrades noticeably, to my ears- this after listening to quite a few.

"and it sounds like he has become a push-pull devotee."

"Now, why exactly would Steve "that first magical watt" Deckert want to build a 15wpc PP amp? I am both amused and bemused..."

"but it's also kind of a sellout, as he was the foremost extant of single ended sound at one time"

__________________________________________________ _______________


I saw this thread pop up in Google last night and for what it's worth thought I would make a few comments:

Our present amplifier line:

SE84C a single ended triode 2 watts x 2
SE84ZS a single ended triode 2 watts x 2
SE84TS a single ended pentode 6 watts x 2
SE34I.2 a single ended triode 6 watts x 2

TORII Mk II a push pull pentode 25 watts x 2

This line evolved over the past 10 years because of a phenomenon I call "usable power" Usable power is how loud you can turn an amplifier up before it stops sounding better and starts sounding worse. The other factor at play is what does it take to make a justifiable and appreciable difference when stepping up the power ladder.

For example, when you find the limit of a 2 watt amplifier and want to take your speakers to the next level what does it take. We have found it takes 6 watts to jump to the "next level" from 2 watts. 4 watts for example is too close to the same thing as 2 watts and the minimal increase in performance isn't enough to justify the cost increase.

When you have a 6 watt amplifier and want to take your speakers to the next level of loudness we found it takes 25 watts. I thought it would be 12 watts as the original TORII was, but in the end we found it was really more like 25 watts.

Going back to usable power - in the process of developing the Torii Mk II we also built some larger amps. A 60 watt and a pair of 120 watt monoblocks. While both the 60 and the 120 watt would get louder then the TORII MK II, the Mk II actually had more usable power then either one. We could play the speakers louder with it before the sound grew worse then we could with the larger amplifiers.

In trying to make an SET amp with 12 to 25 watts either more gain stages had to be used or paralleled output tubes. Both of these options did not sound as good as a single gain stage driving a single output tube. The TORII and the MK II that replaced it are the closest thing to the sparse part count of the SET amps that I could come up with.

As for designing it as a sell out targeted at people with less efficient speakers etc., it was really designed for ourselves and others using the same speakers we mate with the smaller SET amps. The reason for owning one then becomes about how it makes the speakers sound compared to the SET amps. The difference is an even greater sense of speed, a grander sense of scale, and of course better dynamics and low end response. The difference is very apparent when listening to classical music. When you have speakers that will get loud enough on 2 to 6 watts, the TORII MK II has was seems like infinite headroom. The result is rather amazing when the orchestra really gets busy.

I designed the amp with my own SET amps as a reference, not other push pull amps. Consequently it sounds almost just like them. I can assure you it's not your average push pull amp, and as someone pointed out in this thread a well designed PP is actually comparable to a well designed SET, just not real common.

The TORII MK II is just an evolution of our line that ranges between 2 watts and 25 watts. Because of the "usable power" thing, we do not feel that there is anything past the 25 watt point worth pursuing. Decware will never build anything more powerful then the TORII MK II. This particular PP design vs. single ended was chosen because it sounded more transparent then equivalent levels SET power for reasons I pointed out above.

They're all amplifiers to me - built to sound as good as I can possibly make them. Getting hung up on categories and or classifications - especially with things that you might not have heard is sure to keep you from discovering some of audios greater joys.

Steve Deckert

From Steve:
The difference is very apparent when listening to classical music. When you have speakers that will get loud enough on 2 to 6 watts, the TORII MK II has was seems like infinite headroom. The result is rather amazing when the orchestra really gets busy.

I designed the amp with my own SET amps as a reference, not other push pull amps. Consequently it sounds almost just like them. I can assure you it's not your average push pull amp, and as someone pointed out in this thread a well designed PP is actually comparable to a well designed SET, just not real common.


Thanks for jumping in there Steve. I have finally gotten an amp with enough power. This driving speakers that are sensitive enough to get by with a Watt or two. It is ~50 of them actually. This amp replaced an amp of similar topology and parts selection making ~15W and the sense of headroom leaves me smiling.

As to comparing to SE, that's always dependant on what the listener expects. SE amps have a certain character that shows itself more clearly as power approaches the limit. Either you like it or you don't. I fall into the latter...:) Couple that with really liking enough power and it is DH finals with plate ratings greater than 70W that I go hunting for.
cheers,
Douglas

Steve Deckert, welcome.

I am very good friends with Dennis Campbell who lives in your neck of the woods. He has Decware SET's and a zbox. Sounds killer. Very impressive product.

Evan