View Full Version : elna silmic ii sound bad??


fxs1
05-04-2012, 12:42 AM
Hi all, i have a 2225 model. Some time ago I changed almost all electrolytic capacitors with elna silmic ii, and it sounded great(even i didn't compare with the stocks caps, since i replaced the caps shortly after i got the marantz).

But there were a few caps i didn't change at first(in the pre-tone board), and i did it now. a couple of 1 uf 50V(close to the equalized signal that goes to the power amp board), a pair of 4.7 uf and a pair of 33 uf. I turn up the receiver and how it sounds? : a complete veiled sound, lost a lot of detail on the highs, the soundstage and ambience was bad too, even a lepai ta2020 which used to be kick-assed by the marantz it's sounding better now :(.

This is kind of normal with the elnas? they need some break-in time? How long would it be? I'm really tempted to put the old caps again, but i would like to know if i should wait a little longer. What are your experiences with the elnas? Thanks for any advice :P

Sir.Byrd
05-04-2012, 12:54 AM
You could always try Nichicons. I use film caps like Panasonic ECQ for 1uF values.

Alienz
05-04-2012, 06:40 AM
They do need some break-in time in my experience, soundstage gets a lot better over time. According to one site which sells elnas it can take up to 40-100 hours depending on how large the caps are. I am no expert but i have read that 1uf caps are often low-noise caps and some advise to use film caps for 1uf instead of electrolytics.

jstang
05-04-2012, 10:08 AM
Double check your work.... Never heard Silmic I did not like.....

bob06
05-04-2012, 10:14 AM
Elnas Silmic is all I use in my recaps. Never had a problem. But they do need breakin time.

CohibaJoe
05-04-2012, 03:09 PM
They do need some break-in time in my experience, soundstage gets a lot better over time. According to one site which sells elnas it can take up to 40-100 hours depending on how large the caps are. I am no expert but i have read that 1uf caps are often low-noise caps and some advise to use film caps for 1uf instead of electrolytics.
Use these and Nichicon FG with All my recapps.

Around 25hrs to open up...to 100hrs full steam ahead.

avionic
05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
Hi all, i have a 2225 model. Some time ago I changed almost all electrolytic capacitors with elna silmic ii, and it sounded great(even i didn't compare with the stocks caps, since i replaced the caps shortly after i got the marantz).

But there were a few caps i didn't change at first(in the pre-tone board), and i did it now. a couple of 1 uf 50V(close to the equalized signal that goes to the power amp board), a pair of 4.7 uf and a pair of 33 uf. I turn up the receiver and how it sounds? : a complete veiled sound, lost a lot of detail on the highs, the soundstage and ambience was bad too, even a lepai ta2020 which used to be kick-assed by the marantz it's sounding better now :(.

This is kind of normal with the elnas? they need some break-in time? How long would it be? I'm really tempted to put the old caps again, but i would like to know if i should wait a little longer. What are your experiences with the elnas? Thanks for any advice :P

Ya didn't replace some NP/BP's with some polar caps did you.

dumptruck
05-04-2012, 03:21 PM
Looks like the 1uf 50V are the L/R output and are supposed to be NP.

avionic
05-04-2012, 03:35 PM
Looks like the 1uf 50V are the L/R output and are supposed to be NP.

CE23 & CE24 1µf/50vdc N.P. on the PE01 Tone Amp CCA. That will definitely veil your audio..Sound like shit!

Elna "Silmic" bi-polar- 1µf/50volt

http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2280&idcategory=198

or Nichicon "MUSE" ES series
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UES1H010MDM/?qs=kArNe9LFxXmbQTq%252bxw7%2fZKff02Ir4LBjs8PajZxh 2vQ%3d

or use a film cap such as
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS0B041000F00KSSD/?qs=OiDNLlGUHG1L1KxYegeJEeff1GQ3m2J45nOeSKKYNHc%3d


Panasonic "stacked films" are popular as well.
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/ECQ-V1H105JL/P4675-ND/144391

fxs1
05-04-2012, 06:45 PM
Ya didn't replace some NP/BP's with some polar caps did you.

No, in fact those are the only stock electrolytics caps left (because i didn't have non polar 1 uf caps).

fxs1
05-04-2012, 06:49 PM
CE23 & CE24 1µf/50vdc N.P. on the PE01 Tone Amp CCA. That will definitely veil your audio..Sound like shit!

Elna "Silmic" bi-polar- 1µf/50volt

http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2280&idcategory=198

or Nichicon "MUSE" ES series
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UES1H010MDM/?qs=kArNe9LFxXmbQTq%252bxw7%2fZKff02Ir4LBjs8PajZxh 2vQ%3d

or use a film cap such as
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS0B041000F00KSSD/?qs=OiDNLlGUHG1L1KxYegeJEeff1GQ3m2J45nOeSKKYNHc%3d


Panasonic "stacked films" are popular as well.
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/ECQ-V1H105JL/P4675-ND/144391

i don´t have the schematic right now, but i think i replaced c19 and c20(both 1 uf electrolytic polar), c23 and c24 are the original non-polar(i didn´t replace them), so the change in sound it's not their fault.. in fact, i suppose you can't replace non-polar caps with polar ones, right?

i replaced a couple of 33 uf and 4.7 uf too, all polar electrolytics..

avionic
05-04-2012, 07:04 PM
Double check your polarities of the caps installed so far.Don't rely on the PCB silkscreening.It is quite often wrong.

fxs1
05-04-2012, 08:12 PM
Double check your polarities of the caps installed so far.Don't rely on the PCB silkscreening.It is quite often wrong.

but shouldn´t the caps have exploded yet if i inverted the polarities?

BinaryMike
05-04-2012, 08:23 PM
Caps blow up only if leakage current isn't limited by circuit resistance, and it's pretty well limited in most of the low-level circuits.

fxs1
05-04-2012, 08:27 PM
Replacing polarized with non polar (with the exception of film) would sound like crap too, right?

Really, "Elna Silmic II sounds bad", this is the first time I have heard (seen) anyone make that statement.

i replaced only the polar electrolytics with polar electrolytics.. and yeah, i suppose it's surpising but that's what i heard :scratch2:

fxs1
05-04-2012, 08:33 PM
Caps blow up only if leakage current isn't limited by circuit resistance, and it's pretty well limited in most of the low-level circuits.

interesting... because i have a couple of elna ii (polar) but i didn't risk to replace the non polar ones.. maybe if i use only elnas it will sound great again :lmao:

fxs1
05-05-2012, 07:02 PM
guess what! i was checking the caps, and then i realized that c19 and c20 (both stated as 33 uf in the schematics), were in fact 3.3 uf!(i realized when i looked the stock caps i had replaced). so i put a couple of panasonics ecg i had for comparison with the stock elnas.. don't sound bad, but i prefer the original elnas(but probably i would be changing them with new elnas!).

the sound isn´t veiled right now..that's the most noticeable thing. i suppose you have to check the shematics and compare to the actual parts on circuit ..:D

bob06
05-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Sometimes the schematics aren't right. I always go by whats in there to begine with. Clad you found the problem.

fxs1
05-05-2012, 07:45 PM
anyway, given i still have a couple of 1uf polar elnas, would i have some benefit on replace the 1 uf non-polar with them (given it's suposedly safe in preamp circuit, )?

Sir.Byrd
05-06-2012, 02:53 AM
anyway, given i still have a couple of 1uf polar elnas, would i have some benefit on replace the 1 uf non-polar with them (given it's suposedly safe in preamp circuit, )?

Never replace non-polarized capacitors with polarized capacitors.

Hyperion
05-06-2012, 05:22 AM
anyway, given i still have a couple of 1uf polar elnas, would i have some benefit on replace the 1 uf non-polar with them

A big +1 on Sir Byrd's advice - DO NOT use polar capacitors to replace non-polar, there are two types for a reason !

(given it's suposedly safe in preamp circuit, )?

If you mean that in a pre-amp, it is less likely to actually blow up in your face, maybe.

And it will very likely sound like crap.

Ruxman
05-07-2012, 02:39 AM
Hi,

FYI, break-in is not a thing.

PB_Audio
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Hi,

FYI, break-in is not a thing.

You keep saying this...
Why don't you further enlighten us, who have definitely experienced a sonic improvement as new caps go through a break-in period.:smoke:

bob06
05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
I read it some place that Elna Silmic II require 100hrs break in time. I will see if I can find it and I will post it.

avionic
05-07-2012, 11:49 AM
I read it some place that Elna Silmic II require 100hrs break in time. I will see if I can find it and I will post it.

http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=72

Break-in...Just someone elses opinion. Elna makes no note of it.
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html

bob06
05-07-2012, 01:12 PM
http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=72

Break-in...Just someone elses opinion. Elna makes no note of it.
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html

Good one Dave. Thats where I read it. But Elna doesn't say that.:scratch2: So in your opinion Dave no big deal? They do not need burn in time?

PB_Audio
05-07-2012, 07:51 PM
http://www.hndme.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=72

Break-in...Just someone elses opinion. Elna makes no note of it.
http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/onkyou/silmic.html

Perhaps the Silmic II, for example, sound so good, even initially (before burn-in), that complaints are not an issue,... so why even mention the 'burn-in' issue.
Isn't it generally understood anyway... restating the 'Given', more or less???

patfont
05-08-2012, 07:34 PM
I am a big fan of the Elna Silmic, very smooth and harmonically correct sounding. I do have some Elna Silmic BiPolar 1uf 50V let me know if you want 2. The Nichicon ES are also nice.

avionic
05-08-2012, 09:21 PM
Perhaps the Silmic II, for example, sound so good, even initially (before burn-in), that complaints are not an issue,... so why even mention the 'burn-in' issue.
Isn't it generally understood anyway... restating the 'Given', more or less???

Spec sheets --there are no " givens" or assumptions...So have a nut! "Burn in" all you want, more or less!

PB_Audio
05-08-2012, 11:03 PM
Spec sheets --there are no " givens" or assumptions...So have a nut! "Burn in" all you want, more or less!


OK, I'll bite...
Just for the record,
Have you, personally, experienced a sonic improvement, after a full recap, as the new caps went through a break-in period.
How about with film caps, where, in my experience, the break-in period is often even longer than with electrolytic caps.
In the end, unless the new caps sound poorly indefinitely, after a recap, it's a moot point. Eventually the caps fully form. No proceedure is required, but to be patient until your refurbed equipment sounds its best.
It's a non-issue... unless an impatient owner insists on pulling the new caps out of his equipment, because 'he doesn't like the sound'... before the caps have fully formed.
OOPS!!!:no:
Best to be forewarned to expect this phenomonon, right???
And BE PATIENT.:yes:

ChrisMarantz
05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
I have heard improvement with every amplifier I have recapped as soon as I was finished the rebuild. I attribute this primarily to the fact that old, worn out components were replace with new parts.

That being said, when I rebuild the crossovers in my HD770's there was immediate improvement in the sound quality and as I listened to the speakers over the following few days I do believe that I heard a gradual change in the sound. This surprised me.

I am not a fan of the term "burn in" as it is a course term that does not apply to what may be happening to a new capacitor. While there may be molecular changes to the compounds in the capacitor, I have not read any reliable information regarding this process.

RocknRum
05-09-2012, 01:30 PM
I've never heard a sound change with burn in.
But I definitely did with burn out.

heehaaa
06-01-2012, 08:48 PM
I use Elnas on all my amps. Use them on input stage. They do sound good at first then sound deteriorates until they are burnt in for about 80 to 100 hours. After that you'll hear sweetness. Fuller bass and no peakiness on the top end, very smooth.:music:

rhing
06-06-2012, 08:47 AM
I use Elnas on all my amps. Use them on input stage. They do sound good at first then sound deteriorates until they are burnt in for about 80 to 100 hours. After that you'll hear sweetness. Fuller bass and no peakiness on the top end, very smooth.:music:

I've experienced similar results when I've installed Elna Silmic II's on CD player output stages, tube amp cathode bypasses and in SS amp circuits. They sound really clear and sweet initially, then turn into a muddy, dark sound, and then open up with sweet tonality and detail. Even worse are Black Gate N's (non-polar), which can take up to 200 hours to burn in. Once they settle in, the Black Gates are very nice, but I prefer the Elna's since they're easily obtainable and a lot less expensive.

Film caps can also take time to burn in. Wima MKP and FKP Polypropylene film caps in signal path applications sound dull at first almost making one regret installing them. After about 50 hours, they really start to open up and sound as good and warm as more expensive caps like Auricaps and Sonicap Gen II's. Interestingly, Auricaps sound great from the start. I just don't use them as much since they're more expensive, and I can't justify the extra cost.

jstang
06-06-2012, 09:40 AM
I like Silmics and Wimas for almost everything..... Almost....

gunonme2
06-18-2012, 09:01 PM
Elnas Silmic is all I use in my recaps. Never had a problem. But they do need breakin time.

breakin time??? oooboy did someone stell your caps ???

PB_Audio
06-18-2012, 11:35 PM
breakin time??? oooboy did someone stell your caps ???

Say what??? ... "did someone stell your caps" (???)

Although, I believe I do get the bit about the cat, the two legs and the party.
...is the clue in your avatar?:smoke:

jstang
06-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Caps burnin, it's called "forming". Well understood for many many years....


I never really understood the need have an avatar of someone's ass on a audio site...I have plenty of bookmarks that are far more revealing :D

PB_Audio
06-20-2012, 10:16 PM
Caps burnin, it's called "forming". Well understood for many many years....


I never really understood the need have an avatar of someone's ass on a audio site...I have plenty of bookmarks that are far more revealing :D

I can't believe you didn't get a 'bump' for that...:smoke:

Ruxman
06-21-2012, 01:23 PM
It's all in your head. Caps don't have a "sound", and there shouldn't have been a change in character after the recap at all. Only a possible cleaner sound overall.

Burn-in is not a thing. It's a myth and bogus collectively imagined up by people without the necessary knowledge.

Recapping is done as maintenance, not for sound quality improvement.

mech986
06-21-2012, 04:35 PM
:lurk: :lurk: pass the butter

PB_Audio
06-21-2012, 05:50 PM
I've experienced similar results when I've installed Elna Silmic II's on CD player output stages, tube amp cathode bypasses and in SS amp circuits. They sound really clear and sweet initially, then turn into a muddy, dark sound, and then open up with sweet tonality and detail. Even worse are Black Gate N's (non-polar), which can take up to 200 hours to burn in. Once they settle in, the Black Gates are very nice, but I prefer the Elna's since they're easily obtainable and a lot less expensive.

Film caps can also take time to burn in. Wima MKP and FKP Polypropylene film caps in signal path applications sound dull at first almost making one regret installing them. After about 50 hours, they really start to open up and sound as good and warm as more expensive caps like Auricaps and Sonicap Gen II's. Interestingly, Auricaps sound great from the start. I just don't use them as much since they're more expensive, and I can't justify the extra cost.

fsx1,
I'm guessing this is what you're experiencing, providing, of course, that you have the caps installed correctly.:yes:

PB_Audio
06-21-2012, 05:53 PM
:lurk: :lurk: pass the butter

No... I won't bite this time...
...he read it somewhere; so, it must be true... NOT!:boring:

ChrisMarantz
06-21-2012, 07:23 PM
It's all in your head. Caps don't have a "sound", and there shouldn't have been a change in character after the recap at all. Only a possible cleaner sound overall.

Burn-in is not a thing. It's a myth and bogus collectively imagined up by people without the necessary knowledge.

Recapping is done as maintenance, not for sound quality improvement.

It's all really subjective observation, I have a "each to their own" view on this subject. If the owner of the equipment is happy with the sound they created by using whichever parts they chose, more power to them.

jstang
06-21-2012, 11:54 PM
Riddle me this.... :scratch2:

If it's all in my head. What's in your head? :banana:

First one to answer correctly gets a cookie.... :D

It's all in your head. Caps don't have a "sound", and there shouldn't have been a change in character after the recap at all. Only a possible cleaner sound overall.

Burn-in is not a thing. It's a myth and bogus collectively imagined up by people without the necessary knowledge.

Recapping is done as maintenance, not for sound quality improvement.

PB_Audio
06-22-2012, 02:06 AM
Riddle me this.... :scratch2:

If it's all in my head. What's in your head? :banana:

First one to answer correctly gets a cookie.... :D

Easy...
A perception of the sound of the audio component improving.
...that's what's in my head.

It's like the philosopher's question:
If a tree falls in the woods, and noone is there to hear it,
does it make a sound?

Maybe everyone will not actually perceive the difference. Too bad.

But, the original question about: a "cleaner sound overall"...
How do we describe a cleaner sound overall?

Perhaps... a less muddy, more detailed Bass,
greater definition and articulation through the midrange,
a wider, deeper sound stage,
more detail in the upper-midrange,
and finally, a sence of air in the higher frequencies.

Would that qualify as an acceptable definition of
"cleaner sound overall"???:smoke:

I had to do it...:dunno:

jstang
06-22-2012, 07:36 AM
Sorry .... No cookie......:no:

ChrisMarantz
06-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Riddle me this.... :scratch2:

If it's all in my head. What's in your head? :banana:

First one to answer correctly gets a cookie.... :D

My head is full of ideas and concepts and thoughts that try to make sense of the infinite numbers of variables and combinations that make our hobby so interesting. Every once in a while it also contains a small amount of clarity that can provide an answer to one of the many questions I have.

jstang
06-22-2012, 11:34 AM
Nope....:no:....still no cookie.....

I"ll give everyone a hint..... It's a one word answer.....

My head is full of ideas and concepts and thoughts that try to make sense of the infinite numbers of variables and combinations that make our hobby so interesting. Every once in a while it also contains a small amount of clarity that can provide an answer to one of the many questions I have.

avionic
06-22-2012, 11:56 AM
Riddle me this.... :scratch2:

If it's all in my head. What's in your head? :banana:

First one to answer correctly gets a cookie.... :D

Nothing..

jstang
06-22-2012, 01:11 PM
Need address to ship cookie..... We have a winner..... :D

PB_Audio
06-22-2012, 05:53 PM
+1...Bump!:thmbsp: