Automobiles - BMW in Europe

[Yamaha B-2]

Just got back from France where we spent a couple of weeks. Rented a car and drove from Paris to Bordeaux and back with a stopover in the Loire Valley. We rented a BMW 120d. A model not sold in the US. Is a bit smaller than a 3-series, 4-doors, small trunk and back seats that lay flat to maximize carrying capacity. But, it had a 2-liter turbo diesel and 6-speed trannie. Quite comfortable and plenty of get-up-and-go. In fact, it was very peppy and from 2K to redline (4.5K) it really was able to keep up with about anything we encountered with no trouble. Very satisfying acceleration at highway speeds (130kph). But, having to figure out BMW's controls takes a bit of getting used to. It had auto-sensing wipers, which worked well and were a trip after I figured them out. Very handy during our 400 mile first day in the off-and-on rain. Set and forget. But, the speed-control was not at all intuitive. And I was always hitting that lever when I wanted the turnsignal or vis-a-versa. But....the best part of the package was the 50+mpg it got in all sorts of driving. Why don't they sell such vehicles over here? Saw the small Jeep SUV with a turbo diesel, and many Fords and Opels (GM) with same and smaller M-Bs than you can get here, as well. All very space efficient and with small turbo-diesels. Would really like to have the M-B A170 that we saw many of. Or, a very similar Ford model. Or the new Focus wagon that is slightly larger than the existing US model. The sports car magazines are right. They get all the good stuff in Europe and we get 20mpg vs. their 50mpg. What a waste. Maybe $3/gallon gas will help change all of that.

[Sandy G]

They don't have the EPA which has in effect outlawed diesels over here. My sister has a diesel Beetle-one of the few diesels available-it gets 55MPG, isn't a Ferrari, but will happily cruise all day at interstate speeds. If I could afford it, I'd have one in a heartbeat.-Sandy G.

[OvenMaster]

I've read about that BMW 1-series. I'd grab one if I had the dough. But no, here in the States we're supposed to get the bigger (of course!) 2-series. And of course, only the six(!) cylinder engine. I love reading car magazines especially from the UK, like Car, where they showcase European autos which actually have some thought and engineering put into them, not to mention great mileage. Euro manufacturers squeeze every drop of performance out of their cars, and it shows.
Tom

[Yamaha B-2]

They don't have the EPA which has in effect outlawed diesels over here.-Sandy G.Not sure why you state this? Modern diesels meet all current & projected EPA requirements. Your sister's VW is a prime example. The reason we don't get them from BMW and M-B is that it would "demean" the marque, according to the their US marketers, who are happy selling vehicles that all cost more than $30K. But I can't figure out Ford and GM. They are definitely missing the boat on this. Just what we need over here. At least I do.

[Sandy G]

Well, another thing, GM did such a BANG-UP job on their diesels back about 25 yrs ago, it soured many people on 'em, I dunno if they could really sell all that many. Seems like I read somewhere the 2007 particulate emissions regs will get even the Beetle diesel. -Sandy G.

[skippy_ps]

Diesels were the rage here during the gas crisis of the late '70's especially since diesel was less per gallon then than unleaded. After that interest in diesels sorta died. Of course, GM's disaster diesel (converted Olds gas v-8) that was stuck in pickups, Toronados and Cadillacs didn't help matters.

I'm pretty sure the real reason there's not more sold here is simply because sales were/are so poor to say nothing about the added purchase cost.

A turbo diesel in a 3 series BMW would make a nice package over here.

Murray

[Yamaha B-2]

Once GM figured out that they needed water separators in their converted gasoline-cycle engines they were fine. Just didn't last as long as a 'truck' diesel, which is designed to be overhauled after several 100K miles. And the 'after-burners' on modern diesels takes care of the particulate problem. Only smokey diesel I saw on my trip was a '94 M-B, which is an old-style diesel based on older technology. And, diesels would open up all sorts of alternative 'bio-diesel' fuels. Later rather than sooner in the U.S., I guess.

[Manitoulin]

I agree Europe has some intriguing cars that should be over here. Unfortunately, shipping costs would elevate the prices to the point where they are not cost effective. Also North Americans, as a whole equate big cars with speed and safety it seems.

Yamaha B-2, did you take any pictures of any cars while you were in Europe that you can post?

[Yamaha B-2]

Of course I didn't. Duh! What a dumbshit. Only pic's I took of cars were a new M-B hearse (for my brother, who is a hearseophile), a Renault 2CV and one of the BMW motorscooter that has that fiberglass 'cab' with outriggers on it. They seem to be fairly popular in Paris, as are all scooters. Used to be motorcycles, but today it is scooters. Probably make up about 20% of the vehicles in downtown Paris now.

[skippy_ps]

When I was an early teen in San Antonio, Vespas were really popular as were Cushman scooters and of course the ubiquitous Allstate scooter and Allstate MoPed - Sears must have sold a zillion of 'em.

Currently, I'm sorta halfway considering getting a Vespa or something similar to cruise back and forth to work. Really.

Murray

[Sandy G]

Yeah, y'all know how I love the big tanks, but I've always had a hankerin' for a Deaux Cheveaux....or a Vespa 500, I think it was. Vespa made a TINY 2-cyl 2 person car back in the late '50-early '60s that was cute as the proverbial bug's ear. But it got something like 60-65 MPG. A Fiat 500 would be kewl, too-or even a 600 Multipla. Now, that's a ZANY lookin' car...-Sandy G.

[Yamaha B-2]

Don't forget the early 50's BMW that was entered by opening a door that was the entire front of the car. Hinged on the driver's side, the steering wheel and link also swung away with it at the same time. Not their best design, but was unique.

[rew15951]

Cars like that would be great if they had there own lane to drive in. I'd in up a hood ornament on some kenwoods grill.

[Sandy G]

There were at least 2 companies that made the "bubble car"-BMW & Isetta. Some had 3 wheels, some had 4, w/the 2 rear ones being quite close together. Another wacky design was the Messerschmidt "Kabin cruiser", a tandem 2 seater that the top was hinged, & you kinda sat down in it like a fighter plane. BMW made a later version of the "bubble car" that was a bit more conventional-it had a back door, & a back seat. Britain had the Reliant, which was a 3 wheeler-they had lower tax on 'em, & invalids could drive 'em almost tax-free. All these little marvels were almost stupifyingly dangerous by our standards, because they offered almost no protection whatsoever for the driver, had dreadful instability problems, or both. Imagine one of 'em trying to play dodge'em w/an 18 wheeler-you MIGHT get to get the "Sh" out of the exclamation "Oh Shit!" before you got splattered...-Sandy G.

[botrytis]

Don't forget the early 50's BMW that was entered by opening a door that was the entire front of the car. Hinged on the driver's side, the steering wheel and link also swung away with it at the same time. Not their best design, but was unique.

Actually, that was a BMW Isetta not a M-B.

Dave

[Yamaha B-2]

Yes, it was. That is why I stated same. :D

[VinylHanger]

I think the main reason they don't sell more diesel cars is also the crappy ones we had years ago. Diesel Rabbit anyone, or diesel Datsun PU they were all smokey and smelled awful. Besides, if you now tried to tell someone that they get 4 miles per gallon better fuel mileage, they might be stoked, till they realize that diesel costs 25-50 cents more a gallon. And biodiesel is even more than that. All my buddies who bought diesel trucks in the last few years are hatin' it now. Diesel was 56 cents higher yesterday. They do get 6 miles to the gallon more than me though, so maybe it works out.

[Yamaha B-2]

They do get 6 miles to the gallon more than me though, so maybe it works out.Let's do the math. (100mi/14mpg)x$3.29/gal = $23.50 for you. (100mi/20mpg)x$3.85 = $19.25. Your buddies are saving $4.75/100 miles driven or 4.75 cents every mile. Assuming you drive 15,000 miles per year that is a total of $712.50/year in fuel costs. Not too shabbie. However, they probably paid about $5K more for their diesels. Takes 7 years for payback if you drive 15K miles/year. Drive more, faster payback and vis-a-versa. Flipside is that they will have a 7yr/100K warranty on the diesel. So is about a break-even affair at 15K miles. Pay me now or pay me later.

However, with autos it is generally a bigger spread in mileage. Modern VW diesel probably gets close to twice the mileage of its gasoline counterpart. That would cut the payback to under 4 years.

If diesels were to take off in sales, the price of diesel should drop. Especially as it is currently a terrific rip-off by the oil companies/refiners. Diesel takes about 65% of the energy to produce as does gasoline, which is considerably more 'refined'. So diesel costs considerably less to make and can get more diesel from a barrel of oil. Welcome to the very distorted world of energy in the U.S. Diesel cost in Europe is about 20% lower than that for gasoline.

[outlawmws]

If you get to the truck stops diesel is usually a lot cheaper that at a small gas station. I think the local station owners jack it up higher too.

I'm in a Yahell group than is all about vinatge Honda 90's - >100 mpg and pretty fun and easy to drive. If I was closer to work and consistantly at one location I might consider using it for commuting. :yikes: (Did I say that? I must have a death wish) I wihs I could have afforded a hybrid car a few weeks ago...

I agree the tiny European cars and bikes (Japan too, they only make the big bikes for export here) could have a strong market place. Its the big businesses that keep them out. The LIKE us on the bigger hogs... $$$$

[H2s04]

manitoulin/yamaha B-2: I'm in europe alot, and if anyone's interested, I have all sorts of car pics.

[clint e.]

You guys,knows more about European cars than most of us here.

clint.

[Yamaha B-2]

manitoulin/yamaha B-2: I'm in europe alot, and if anyone's interested, I have all sorts of car pics.
Can you post a pic of the new M-B A170D? That is definitely a car I would buy if it were imported. Also, I noticed that the M-Series in Europe have either 1.7 or 2.5 liter turbo diesels. I wonder if they are 4-wheel drive?

[clint e.]

Can you post a pic of the new M-B A170D? That is definitely a car I would buy if it were imported. Also, I noticed that the M-Series in Europe have either 1.7 or 2.5 liter turbo diesels. I wonder if they are 4-wheel drive?

Yes.They have 2 or 4 whee drive. :yes:

clint.

[H2s04]

Strangely, I don't have any pics of that, as we rented one in 2003 to drive around devon/cornwall (uk) and it was an absolutely awesome car; we've also rented a toyota avnesis (an equally great car; built like a tank) and a vauxhall meriva, although adorable on the outside, being 6'6", it wasn't very comfortable in the back seat :p

[ProAc_Fan]

As someone mentioned earlier, the reason these small fuel efficient turbo diesel powered vehicles aren't avialable in the US has nothing to do with emissions or even crash ratings. It has to do with brand perception and the perceived tastes of the average American car buyer. I recently test drove a Smart Car ( built by M-B, 799 CC turbo diesel) that gets a staggering 65-70 mpg. When I asked the salesman why these cars weren't even available in the US he told me that marketing studies showed little to no interest in the Smart Car in the US. Americans still equate size and horsepower with safety and quality and don't give the price of fuel a second thought. GM must share this opinion or they wouldn't keep making Hummer H2's or Escalades. Maybe the 1 redeeming quality to these increasing fuel costs will be the new vehicle options available in N.America.

Mike

[shelby1420]

As someone mentioned earlier, the reason these small fuel efficient turbo diesel powered vehicles aren't avialable in the US has nothing to do with emissions or even crash ratings. It has to do with brand perception and the perceived tastes of the average American car buyer. I recently test drove a Smart Car ( built by M-B, 799 CC turbo diesel) that gets a staggering 65-70 mpg. When I asked the salesman why these cars weren't even available in the US he told me that marketing studies showed little to no interest in the Smart Car in the US. Americans still equate size and horsepower with safety and quality and don't give the price of fuel a second thought. GM must share this opinion or they wouldn't keep making Hummer H2's or Escalades. Maybe the 1 redeeming quality to these increasing fuel costs will be the new vehicle options available in N.America.

Mike

Sanme question i asked ya before Mike, where the hell is the rest of that car??? :lmao: :lmao:

[2DualsNotEnough]

And I think the hybrid cars will really take off now too.The Prius isnt such a slow poke,really,and now they have that Lexus SUV that gets 30mpg.When I lived in Europe,I was amazed at all the small cars made by the manufacturers we perceive as luxury car makers.My buddy owned a very small Volvo hatchback that got great mileage,and could carry absolutely anything.Rover had neat little cars,and a lot of small Citreons that were really cool.And know what I loved?That so many of the cars there had options for very small engines,and small turbo charged engines.Seems like they had a wider choice of engines in their models than we have in the states.
Jimmy

[Yamaha B-2]

Here is a website link for M-B France. http://www.mercedes-benz.fr/ With a little surfing you can pull up the A-Class (see if you can get the Nos Modeles tab to pop up on the top edge of the website - it is a pull-down listing of all the -Classes). Extremely space efficient model. With the largest (2L) turbo diesel the list price is ~$30K. M-B will not bring it in as they do not want to "demean the marque" in the U.S. This is a quote fromt their national marketing manager some years ago.

Yes.They have 2 or 4 whee drive. :yes: clint.The M-class sold in the U.S. is built in Alabama, I believe (South Carolina?). Somewhere down there, anyway. Do you know if the ones sold in Europe are built in Europe?

And I think the hybrid cars will really take off now too.The Prius isnt such a slow poke,really,and now they have that Lexus SUV that gets 30mpg.When I lived in Europe,I was amazed at all the small cars made by the manufacturers we perceive as luxury car makers.My buddy owned a very small Volvo hatchback that got great mileage,and could carry absolutely anything.Rover had neat little cars,and a lot of small Citreons that were really cool.And know what I loved?That so many of the cars there had options for very small engines,and small turbo charged engines.Seems like they had a wider choice of engines in their models than we have in the states. JimmyYou know what pisses me off about this is that Ford and GM and Chrysler all offer these same smaller cars (and some not so small) with these engines in Europe but won't bring them in to the U.S. I looked at a hybrid Ford Escape SUV when they first came out last fall. The list price was near $30K and the dealer was willing to sell for ~$24K. I looked again at the start of the summer. The price was still around $30K (was loaded) and the dealer was selling at full list with no negotiation. I guess hybrids have taken off.

[clint e.]

[QUOTE=Yamaha B-2]Here is a website link for M-B France. http://www.mercedes-benz.fr/ With a little surfing you can pull up the A-Class (see if you can get the Nos Modeles tab to pop up on the top edge of the website - it is a pull-down listing of all the -Classes). Extremely space efficient model. With the largest (2L) turbo diesel the list price is ~$30K. M-B will not bring it in as they do not want to "demean the marque" in the U.S. This is a quote fromt their national marketing manager some years ago.

The M-class sold in the U.S. is built in Alabama, I believe (South Carolina?). Somewhere down there, anyway. Do you know if the ones sold in Europe are built in Europe?

Yes.All the Mercedes in Europe are mainly made in Germany and some small parts,like electric cables are made in near by countries like Poland or Czech Republic.Speaking about Czech Republic,they made beautiful and very solid cars - Skoda. :thmbsp: They have now the most modern plant in Europe made by Volkswagen.
They belong to the Volkswagen Group like the ones made in Spain- Seat. :D

clint.

[OvenMaster]

Jeez, are those hood ornaments standard equipment? Sign me up!
Tom

[Sandy G]

Are Tatras still made? Spain had the honor of making a car that in it's day was one of the finest ever produced anywhere-the Hispano-Suiza, from Barcelona. In the Twenties til the eve of WW2, these long-hooded babes w/their luxurious beautiful coachwork rivalled anything from Stuttgart or Crewe. The company apparently survives today, making aero engines, but they've been out of the car making business for quite awhile.-Sandy G.

[Yamaha B-2]

clint e. - I'll take the yellow one with exactly those options!!

[clint e.]

Hispano Suiza cars are originated in Spain.Even nowadays they are some of the most desirable cars anywhere and in their time were the most expensive cars in the world. For example the H6C Xenia coupe is extremely beautiful and has not aged one second since its construction in 1938 and would sell like hotcakes even now! :yes:

Just take a look at the pics. :naughty:

clint.

[clint e.]

clint e. - I'll take the yellow one with exactly those options!!

Sorry man,you are a little late.That one was for me. :naughty:

clint.

[2DualsNotEnough]

Hey Clint,
Didnt Seat have a car with an engine designed by Porsche?
Jimmy

[clint e.]

Hey Clint,
Didnt Seat have a car with an engine designed by Porsche?
Jimmy

Hey Jimmy,
i'm not sure, but since the Volkswagen-Porsch Group took over Seat,i think the Seat Racing Cars ( Seat Cupra ) have a lot of Porsch components. :yes:
Take a good look at :www.seatcupra.net

clint.

[2DualsNotEnough]

Can I get the blue one with ALL the extra-cost options? :naughty:
Jimmy

[Yamaha B-2]

clint's probably taken that one, too.

[clint e.]

Negative boys.
This time i've taken the red one. :naughty:

clint.

[Sandy G]

In one of the Ralph Stein books, there was a wooden-bodied Hispano that instead of chrome, it had copper fittings. The body was made of tulipwood strips, looked to be about 2" wide by about a foot long, all held together w/copper rivets. An unbelievably gorgeous car !!-Sandy G.

[clint e.]

In one of the Ralph Stein books, there was a wooden-bodied Hispano that instead of chrome, it had copper fittings. The body was made of tulipwood strips, looked to be about 2" wide by about a foot long, all held together w/copper rivets. An unbelievably gorgeous car !!-Sandy G.

Hey Sandy,
Are you talking about this beauty?! :naughty:

clint.

[Sandy G]

Yep, that's the one !! That car has to be one of the LEAST practical autos ever made...but, Lordy, is it pretty !!!-Sandy G.