Tuner Alignment?

[absolon]

I've heard a fair bit of discussion about tuner alignment but realize I don't really know what is meant by the term. I'd appreciate a little enlightenment from those that do.

What are the signs a tuner needs alignment?
What does the alignment involve?
What difference would I find in the tuner after it has been aligned?

Thanks

[DanTana]

If your tuner has poor sensitivity, seperation and sound quality it could need an alignment. If it's only slightly off you may not even be aware it's off.

Alignment involves quite a bit of equipment. PunkerX could answer this one better. An Oscilloscope, signal generator, distortion analyzer, DMM, are just a few devices needed.

Difference can range from very significant, to minor, depending how old and how far off the tuner was to begin with. It could be a night and day difference if it's far off. Even if it's close you'd probably notice some difference.

[absolon]

Thanks DanTana.

Sounds a bit like the vitamin supplements my wife takes. You don't really know for sure if you need them and you aren't really sure if you're getting results by taking them but it probably won't hurt you (unless you get a tech that only thinks he knows what he's doing).

[DanTana]

If the tuner is over 10-15 yrs old, there's a very good chance it does need one. Do you have other tuners to compare with? A good well-known tuner that can barely pick up a local station will more than likely need an alignment. Some tuners are just bad to begin with. So it's all relative.

[goldear]

Tuner allignment is a very tricky business. Even with all of the necessary equipment, there is a LOT of skill, and experience required to be successful. In many ways, it is more of a black art, than a science.

A poorly allight tuner can have symptoms such as: poor sensitivity poor selectivity, poor stereo separation, and even gross error's in the tuning dial's callibration.

Any anlaog tuner more than 10 years old starts to become suspect. Tube tuners almost universally require re-allignments, beacuse tube, and component drift causes them to go out of alligment much more quickly. I think that digitial tuners may not go out of alligment as quickly as analog, but I could be wrong about this.

[absolon]

I appreciate the info. It is indeed complicated.

I currently have two tuners, a Sony 5000F and a Sansui 717 as well as a Marantz 2216 receiver. The Sony dial reads accurately and separation and sound quality is very good when I can receive a stereo signal. However, it doesn't pick up stations as well as the Sansui. The Sansui dial is off, but again separation is fairly good as is sound quality and stereo reproduction is easier to attain. The Marantz dial is farther off and there is more noise but again separation and sound quality are good but stereo is very spotty. It also tends to drift. I have had a number of lower quality digital and analog tuners and none was able to provide stereo which I think indicates the poor reception in my area.

I am currently working on my antenna situation but it is an ugly job to run the wire where it needs to go and I have been delaying it. Until that is done and until I have learned a sufficent amount about the symptoms of a misaligned tuner, I can't really make a judgement about which needs aligning. To further complicate things, I don't know of any tech in the area who I would trust with the job. Shipping to Chicago from Vancouver Island is very expensive so I want to be sure the tuner will benefit sufficently to justify the cost. The receiver is just going to have to live with it's state.

Any other comments?

[goldear]

I have been up in the Canadian SanJaun Islands many times. You have some extremely difficult FM Reception conditions up there; weak signal, and LOTS of big hills. You are in an area that most would consider to be a true "DX" zone.

So it does not surprise me at all that you are having difficulty getting good reception. It also does not surprise me that the Sansui is getting the best ception of the lot. That is by all accounts, a VERY nice tuner! You need a very sensitive tuner up there. Selectivity is not as crucial, simply because the stations aren't very crowded up there, if memory serves (unless you are in a high enough spot to actually recieve either Seattle of Bellingham stations, in addition to Vancover).

A stronger signal will clearly help you a whole bunch. The only real way to get that is with an outdoor antenna. You are certainly in a spot that you could really benefit from using a super sensitive tuner though. As good as the Sansui is, you should probably consider trying to obtain a 5 or 6 gang tuner. Using one of those, with a good outdoor antenna, and you should get vastly improved reception.

Yes, your Sansui is slightly out of allignment, but the dial being off a little should not serously effect its reception much, I would think.

It is also possible that some of the ceramic filter mods that are out there might help this tuner at bit. I'm not really familiar with the rest of the tuners you mentioned, but I would strongly to suspect that they are inferior to the Sansui, and would probaly not have enough raw staion pulling power to work very well up where you are located.

[dr*audio]

You just mentioned one symptom of a tuner needing alignment; the dial is out of calibration. this is the only adjustment you could do yourself.
Another symptom, if the tuner has a center tuning meter and the stations will not come in in stereo with the station tuned for center on the tuning meter, but will come in stereo when the station is tuned off center.
.

[absolon]

You must be a sailor goldears. You have described the conditions very here accurately.

I have a big UHF/VHF/FM antenna on a rotator on the roof, but even though the tuner and the TV are only 20' apart, I need to restring the main lead from the antenna with coax in difficult conditions and then add a run to the tuner into an addition with separate foundation and sealed underside. The other option is to add a second antenna/rotator and install a dedicated Yagi, an easier but uglier alternative.

The Sony is a five gang, twelve filter tuner and is reputably a better DXer than the Sansui. So far, of the two tuners, I prefer it. With thanks to the fmtunerinfo site, here is a description of it:

"Intended to compete with the Marantz 10B, the Sony ST-5000 was the first audio component widely distributed by Sony in the U.S. Built like a tank, more like military gear (or McIntosh tuners) than later Japanese electronics, it has a strong following even though the styling was not great (very typical of '60s hifi gear). The two variations had different front panels (the one with “5000F” on the front panel is the “5000FW”, as it says on the back panel) and differences in the front end, IF filter, and MPX section as well. Both had 5-gang tuning capacitors, with the ST-5000's being silver-plated. Both had an 8-stage IF filter section, and an all discrete multiplex section. The 5000's filters are adjustable LC type, and the 5000F uses the 4-pin ceramic type, so don't buy an ST-5000 or 5000F expecting to swap 3-pin filters. The ST-5000 is the earlier version and is very rare. Our contributor Charles says that his ST-5000FW has a beautiful sound, and that “in the next room, it really seems like you have musicians in your house.” He also finds it “almost as good as my KT-7500 [for DXing]... in situations that try the adjacent channel selectivity of any tuner. That's amazing performance for a 30-year-old unit with all LC filters and only one IF bandwidth.” Mike Zuccaro comments as follows: “The ST-5000 had LC IF filters, a CdS Rf attenuator in the front end, fully bipolar front end (no FET's yet), CdS muting and switchable AFC. The ST-5000F (“F” for FET), introduced about one year later, had 4 FET's in the front end- 2 RF amps, mixer and oscillator. It did not need AFC. The 3 ceramic filter blocks used in the 5000F actually each contain 4 filters (!). It's not shown this way in the schematic (just a filter block), but is buried in the circuit description ('uses 3 4-section multi-unit ceramic filters'). The 5000F had standard transistor-driven muting (no CdS cell) and marginally better sensitivity specs. Both are very highly rated tuners - I'd consider them sleepers. Replaced by the AM/FM ST-5130, which I have worked on and is a nice unit, but the build quality was not the same as the 5000. The ST-5000 was Sony's first tuner, aimed at a heavyweight (the Marantz 10B), and like McIntosh's MR-55, Sony spared no expense. Later tuners may have had equal or better specs, but were certainly 'made to a price' whereas the 5000/5000F seem to have been built with more care.” The ST-5000/5000F shows up a few times a year on eBay and can sell for $150-350. The sale price usually depends on condition, but a supposedly “like new” ST-5000 sold for just $158 in 12/03. [BF]"


Thanks dr*audio, the Sony has both tuner input and tuning meters and strongest input does not always correspond with centered tuning. I usually have to work the dial and the stereo/auto selector switch to force a stereo signal. That does not always occur at the same meter readings. Interestingly enough, it has the only dial that is spot on. I haven't used the Sansui enough yet to know offhand how it fares.

[goldear]

Actually, my father is the sailor. I just went on many boat trips as a kid. Audio is my big vise. :D

[L'wood]

Why would you send it to Chicago? Am I missing something or someone here that I SHOULD know?

With $150 worth of work your 717 will shine like you've never knew it could. Search the 717 on TunerInfo as you did for your 5000 description and you'll find a link for audiophile mods and filter mods-it's the best money you will ever spend! I did recently and my caps are finally opening up and the sound is sweet, the soundstage increased along with a tighter bass. Almost a McInstosh MR 74, almost...so it will stay in the basement rotation for now.

[dr*audio]

Thanks dr*audio, the Sony has both tuner input and tuning meters and strongest input does not always correspond with centered tuning. I usually have to work the dial and the stereo/auto selector switch to force a stereo signal. That does not always occur at the same meter readings. Interestingly enough, it has the only dial that is spot on. I haven't used the Sansui enough yet to know offhand how it fares.
It is just possible it could only need the tuner cleaned. try working the tuning back and forth a bunch of times, across the dial and around the station you wish to tune. If it improves, then the tuner needs cleaning. This is not to say an alignment wouldn't help, but cleaning might get you by for awhile.

[absolon]

dr*audio, I've seen cans of "Tuner Cleaner" at what used to be our Radio Shack stores. I presume this is for spraying on the variable capacitor to clean it. Is this stuff a good idea and safe to use or would I be looking for trouble to try it?

Thanks L'wood, I've read that review too and have no doubt about the quality of the Sansui. I posted the Sony comments only because it is a fairly unknown beast that hasn't been put through the shootout yet and consequently doesn't have the name recognition the Sansui has. Due to rarity, there also hasn't been the development of a variety of mods for it or a large group of owners singing it's praises. All comments I've heard from people who do own the Sony echo my opinion of it. It really is a fine tuner with an exceptional soundstage and a very dynamic and musical presentation even in it's thirty three year old condition. Ideally, I would have both units serviced and keep them for an extended comparison but I have a larger investment in the Sony so it is likely going to get attention first once I have sorted out the antenna situation.

I was refering to RadioX and should have said Detroit rather than Chicago. I haven't been able to find a good tech locally let alone a vintage analog tuner specialist. Shipping is a killer though.

[Punker X]

Please do not use Tuner Cleaner on the varible cap. It will really mess things up. Compressed air should be tried first. Isopropal Alcholol followed by compressed air works well. If its not scratchy when tuning, probably best to leave it alone. An alignment on any tuner over 10 years hold will most likely help.

Be more than happy to take care of your tuners when your ready. Sounds like in your situation large dedicated FM yagi, good RG6 with the shortest run possible and an amp may be in order and the best investment you could make.

X

[dr*audio]

What he said.

[absolon]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll deal with the antenna first and keep my grubby little paws off both tuners except for the controls on the faces.

X, I'll contact you just after Christmas. In the meantime I'll see if I can put my hands on a service manual for the Sony.

[Yamaha B-2]

Dick - Go back to the TIC website and read some more. They cover things like alignment and mods pretty thoroughly. My ST-5000FW should be on the way to Mike in a day or two. I may ask him to wait until yours arrives to practice on. :D And, don't ever want to get the main tuning cap 'wet'. It may ruin some of the surrounding little 'trimer caps'. Had that happen to a STR-V6 tuner section once. The great 'Coke' incident.

[bob adams]

If you are looking for a service tech in the Chicago area you might try.

"Dave Vaccaro at Chicago Audio (773 735 8833). He has worked on
many of my Marantz receivers(in fact he's got my 2325 to fix the tuner.
He's very knowledgable about vintage SS gear. He does excellent repair
work and his prices are reasonable."

This was posted at the yahoo group MarantzTalk site by a member named Frank G. I can't vouch for the tech or the poster but sounds legit.

[Fast_Eddie]

I doused a variable cap with tuner cleaner once. Oops. I had a mother of a time getting the thing to work at all after that. I hoped it would just dry, but it didn't. Finally, I tried rubbing alcohol. I just dripped it on with a q tip. Had to work it quite a bit, but a couple weeks later, it started working really well. Actually, better than ever.

Ed

[Yamaha B-2]

Ah, yes. The extremely difficult and elusive 'wet alignment' performed to the highest level.