sacd question

[gonzo]

How will a sacd player sound with a non-surround system,I have read several reviews about layers and warmth.I am an old school stereo die hard and before I invest in another player will it matter on my existing home system. Gonzo

[Billfort]

SACD in a stereo only system sounds great. I have 2 SACD players in 2 separate stereo only systems (Sony 777ES & CE775) and have no intention of dabbling in mult-channel for music listening. Speakers all over the room might be nice for creating movie affects but for me, thats where mutli-channel stays - in a separate home theater rig.

I still listen primarily to vinyl but am extremely happy with SACD - it lets the music through, unlike any other digital source I have heard. It can sound very smooth and subtle with the air, space and depth you hear with vinyl. Popping a seedee in after listening to SACD can be a little shocking - flat, lifeless, mechanical sound - the illusion of music in the room I get with some SACDs and vinyl is completely gone. I still think great vinyl is better than SACD but it's pretty damn close. This is a great (digital) format with a bright future - I'm glad it came along.

Billfort

[gonefishin]

Not much into multi-channel mayself. In fact...I have my sacd player hooked up in two channel only.


is there anyopne that lives near you that has a sacd player...that you can try out?

[JoZmo]

I also have my SACD player hooked up two channel. This format is made to be played in two channel or multi-channel if you like, and still enjoy it.

[Dr. No-No]

Best Buy is closing out the Sony 775. I picked one up today for $99.95 and there was a Demo disc in it.

I'm impressed.

I didn't have the negative sound some others have on regular CDs.

I figured I should buy a player for the only SACD DISC I own. Course now I own two.

I'm more of a mid-high range guy myself. Bass is not my forte.

Thanks for all of your help!!!

......joe

[Johnny]

What a great question, glad you asked it gonzo. I`m looking to pick up a SACD player too. One other concern I had was music thats available in this format, I havent seen alot. I imagine, and hopefully, in the future most if not all releases will be on SACD.

J

[gonefishin]

Johnny...it seems that the internet is the best place to get sacd music...Most of the time I count myself lucky if the sales people even know what SACD is...let alone have some in stock.

[gonzo]

The older saleman at Barnes and Nobles looked at me like I had done too much super glue.He had no idea as to what in the world I was talking about,super what?,I went else where.If you happen to have a Frys in the area,ours here in Austin,Tx carries a nice selection.They run 4-7 dollars cheaper that the local short circuit and best lie.Have a great one,10.5 more working days.YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!! Peace Gonzo

[BrianB]

As an early adoptor of SACD, I can assure you that you will NOT be disappointed with this format via a two-channel system. I'm not as negative towards surround-sound as I used to be, but I still do all of my listening in stereo, and I have found that SACD can be quite impressive.

Of course, there ARE some "standard" CD players out there whose performance with Redbook CDs can match the performance of even the best SACD players with SACDs. Yes, these CD players DO tend to be rather expensive - the least costly such unit that I know of retails for $1500. On the other hand, there are many more well-mastered CDs than there are SACDs...

[mikey5967]

The real problem is that SACD and DVD-A just arent catching on.

The sales are , in reality, pitiful. My friend is a hot shot at SONY and most of the grand plans they had for SACD have now been scaled down alot.

The biggest problem? Consumers didnt ASK for these two formats, consumers wanted "portable" music to put on Mp3 players, burn Cds, share across the net, etc.

All the things the Record companies dont want to give them.

[mikey5967]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny
[B]What a great question, glad you asked it gonzo. I`m looking to pick up a SACD player too. One other concern I had was music thats available in this format, I havent seen alot. I imagine, and hopefully, in the future most if not all releases will be on SACD.

>>>>>>in the future, SACD will probable become a "niche" audio format, as Quad and Direct To Disk was.

Consumers have resisted SACD and DVD-A for many reasons, the economy is only one of them. Perception of antiquity is another...who wants ANOTHER big spinning disk? Thats so "1982"....

[ckelly]

I think the problem with SACD or DVD-A is mainly cost, as it's meant to be for surround listening - that means getting 5 speakers and a sub.

The other issue with these formats is that surround systems also mean more speakers... and less WAF.

Also the mass market doesn't perceive any added benefit soundwise, it's not the "jump" people noticed when they went from cassettes and vinyl to CD.

People aren't also jumping in because there is not much music out there available in the format.

Also, as mikey5967 pointed out - people want portablility in sound. In fact MANY can't tell the difference in sound between a CD and a decently ripped MP3. Consumers are looking for toys like the iPod made by apple, and not a large unit for their living room. Also AFAIK, there aren't portable SACD players or car SACD players - all things that helped the market for CD's grow enourmously.

Chris

[JonTee]

I originally started with a sacd and acquired a dvd-audio when I had to replace my dvd player (defective under warranty).

I have maybe 7 sacd discs and I like the format quite well. However, availability of discs to play has been a problem. The local music shop that i frequent just recently started acquiring hybrid discs (discs that can be played on a cdp as well as sacd) just recently. The price was the same as a regular cd (hallelujia!) and the manager said that they were starting to get more in.

There isn't much fanfare about it, nothing on the covers except a notation in the corner that it was a hybrid and was mixed in with the other cd's. He also said that all of the Stones albums they were getting were hybrid.

Must be there sneaking them in so the change won;t be a big deal.

JonTee

[hifitommy]

this is the way i will probably listen unless i hook up the dynaquad again. when i put the pink noise generator on from my ht pre, the center channel speaker was tonally way off and to match my spendor s3/5s seems like a crapshoot. i can live without a center channel but the ambience channels are essential.

i suppose i will use the ht pre for movies but for music, stereo with ambience like dolby pro logic will suffice or dyanquad. music discrete surround is being abused so i can listen to the stereo tracks with ambience estraction.

buying on line is a good thing, best buy and circuit city are not charging for shipping these days. they even have vinyl!

[Jack G]

SACD can be done as well with 2 channels as with surround(better actually). That said, I do not believe that it is really catching on. There aren't that many SACDs out there, and many or most of them do not take advantage of the format's quality. Many of the releases are just rereleases of old recordings. A lot of them sound like dog poop. I have about a dozen or so SACDs, and their quality ranges from the rediculous to the sublime. Then there's Redbook playing. I haven't heard Sony's top-of-the-line, but most do not do justice to redbook. I jumped on the SACD bandwagon a while back, but have since jumped off in disapointment. My Philips SACD 1000 is now doing video duty.
Jack

[botrytis]

DOn't forget there are two types of SACD's Hybrid (can be played on both CD and SACD players) and SACD alone. Sony owns all of the SACD patents and I think nobody really wants to deal with them.

Dave

[Dr. No-No]

For a selection of SACDs try:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/sacd.cfm?section=sacd

Many indie labels to choose from. Shipping is prompt.

Regards,

Joe

[Billfort]

Last I checked, there are over 1200 SACD titles available from something like 150 different labels. New titles are being released on a regular basis both re-releases of classic albums and new DSD recordings. My problem has not been finding SACD's I want to buy, but being able to afford what I'd like, while still feeding my desire to buy vinyl.

SACD is here to stay, has lots to choose from (for me anyway) and sounds fantastic - maybe not as good as the best vinyl, but a hell of a lot better than conventional seedee, which I don't buy or listen too much anymore.

This site gives a good overview of what IS available and whats coming SACD Info (http://sacdinfo.com) . I really love the ride I'm getting on the SACD "bandwagon", there is some real music on this ride. If I can't have vinyl, I'm glad this ride came along.

[Jack G]

>>>Last I checked, there are over 1200 SACD titles available <<<
OOOOOOOOOOO! Thats almost as many CDs as I have!
compare that number to how many CDs that are available.
And there STILL aren't many SACDs I want.

>>>SACD is here to stay,<<<
The jury is still out, as to weather or not it will stay, and weather or not it will be just a niche product.

There is still the issue of redbook through the machines. In most cases, its undewelming.

Some of the SACDs I have REALLY impressed me, and I REALLY REALLY wanted to go hog wild, but I just couldn't.
There is ALOT of potential there, but I'm not convinced its going to make it. Unless Sony et. al. decides to stop making redbook, and *only* produce hybrids, I don't see a future in the mainstream.

Then there's the price. If they aren't as cheap as discounted CDs-not full retail, or almost as cheap as, etc. The masses won't buy it.
If SACD becomes viable, I may buy more, assuming there is a decent high end machine available.
Time will tell.
Jack

[Billfort]

I guess I’m missing the point here or maybe measuring the relative merits of a digital yes-no, 1-0 computer technology by the wrong yardstick – how it serves MUSIC.

You have thousands of CD’s and there is a gazillion of these things available – ok, the “mainstream” and “masses” you talk about should be very happy and content to stay there. I’m sure there are lots of people with a gazillion free MP3’s on their hard-drives and in their ultra convenient little pocket pals that could use this logic to say that that’s the best format. All I was trying to say is that there IS material out there and it continues to be released at a decent rate. Maybe my musical tastes are all over the board but I have no trouble finding desirable titles.

Redbook through my $200 SACD machine is just as crappy as redbook through a $200 CD player – what does that have to do with SACD? Redbook through my $2000 SCD-777 is actually pretty good and better than a lot of more expensive players I’ve heard but again, what does that have to do with SACD? The fact that you can play both formats on the same machine is MUCH more important. That being said, I think you are absolutely right about the need for more dual layer discs before this format really takes off.

Jury is still out, don’t see a future in the mainstream, they aren’t cheap, the masses won’t buy it, etc. are all probably correct statements, but the fact remains that this format actually SOUNDS GOOD. Niche product – could very well be, and I am very happy to enjoy music on this niche product just like the other niche product that does the job even better – vinyl. Redbook has its place for me (the car, background music, portable blasters, coaster under a beer, etc.) but I’m done looking for a player that can let me just listen to music off it.

Just my opinion of coarse :) .

[Jack G]

>>>I guess I’m missing the point here<<<
Apparently.
good sound does not automatically make a financially viable media.

>>>L All I was trying to say is that there IS material out there and it continues to be released at a decent rate. <<<
but only audiophiles(a small percentage at that) are buying it. If more do not, it is at best a niche market. Why is this important? the more people who buy it, the more likely it will catch on and there will be better players and more discs. If the market does not grow, sony might pull the plug eventually.

>>>Redbook through my $200 SACD machine is just as crappy as redbook through a $200 CD player – what does that have to do with SACD?<<<
alot, if its doing to be a new standard. Do you think everyone will just throw away all their CDs when SACDs come along? I saved my vinyl...

>>>Redbook through my $2000 SCD-777 is actually pretty good and better than a lot of more expensive players I’ve heard but again, what does that have to do with SACD? <<<
Perhaps, but there aren't alot $2K players out there-Sony and philips have gone cheapo with machines. I've been unimpressed with SACD through cheap machines. Good Redbook is better than bad SACD.

>>>but the fact remains that this format actually SOUNDS GOOD.<<<
But, if it doesn't sell, it might go the way of beta, DAT etc.

I honestly hope it succeeds, I would LOVE to be able to go out and buy any music I want on SACD. T^he media has alot of potential, but its still too early.BHTW, quite a few of the SACD rereleases sound like crap, and a waste of a good media.
Jack

[hifitommy]

i snagged a sony sn500v which ahs the BEST rbcd sound ive EVER had in the house for $161 delivered. its discontinued but the ns755v is pretty much the same sounding. about $250, check amusicdirect.com.

[Billfort]

Actually Jack, I am just missing your point, and that seems to be that SACD may not be a financially feasible media for the masses. On that, I agree with you. My point is, it sounds good, makes music, and will survive, even as a “niche” product like the other medium that makes music, vinyl. There is a market for things that push the limits of what can be achieved with reproduced music at home and I guess that’s what SACD is and that’s why I love it.

SACD sounds good, so we agree. SACD may not replace seedee, so we agree. You seem to like CD and feel it’s not going anywhere, great. In the meantime, I am enjoying listening to a 1-0, yes-no digital technology that makes music like vinyl does. For ME, there are lots of desirable discs available, they are coming out at a rate I like and I enjoy the hell out of the 70 or so I already have. If it goes away like BETA, ok, I’ll still enjoy the hell out of the hundreds of titles I’ll own on SACD – just like I regularly enjoy the thousands of titles I still enjoy in another obsolete, niche, format – vinyl.

At the end of the day, these players from the entry level to the high dollar units, STILL play the beloved seedee and some of them it seems, pretty damn well. My 777 sounds fine playing these things – what’s the downside to owning it and listening to better sound on SACD if you can actually find one you like?

[Jack G]

I didn't mean to start an argument-my apologies.
My point, is that it has alot of potential, but is still in its infancy.
Right now it is not for everyone, not even all audiophiles, due to the limited(IMO) selection of software, and (with a few exceptions) the limitations of the cheap hardware.
I do have a problem with some of the SACD cheerleaders. People need to hear a more balance POV of plusses and minuses. I jumped into the SACD scene a while back, with high expectations.
I was GREATLY disapointed. I thought the number of releases was way too slow, and many of the releases (mostly rereleases) sounded pretty bad. I am not alone in these feeling either.
The fact that the world wide selection of SACDs is smaller than my music collection says alot.
OTOH, I liked the best SACD had to offer.
I hope it succeeds, but I suspect it will not.
It has a lot of potential, but at the moment, it isn't even close to fullfilling it's promise.
If it does, I will jump back into it.
I meant no offense-again, my apologies.
Jack

[Dr. No-No]

Jack, many years ago I used to get a Mag called Digital Audio Review. I remember the cover stating 600 CDs now available.

Personally, I'd rather have SACDs come out slow and sounding good than coming out everyday sounding terrible.

I'll continue to buy SACDs and CDs(at the pawn shops).

My hope is everyone will enjoy music on what ever level they listen to it. Personally, I will not spend 10k on a TT another +1k on a cartridge to get a sound only a dog can appreciate. Yet that is just me.

I want to enjoy music. I want music to touch my soul. For me it does on some SACDs.

This is all I know.....

...Regards...

...Joe

[hifitommy]

this bodes well for dsd/sacd to become the de facto standard of recording.

i love AAA recordings but if they want to make dsd vinyl, hooray! that would enable TT owners without sacd players to take advantage of the new recording technology. even the telarc soundstream reocrdings sounded good on vinyl (50k sampling) so dsd should sound that much better on vinyl.

the sampling rate and information density are both adequate to compete head to head with analog whereas rbcd CANT.
even the beloved (espen$ive) XRCD is still RBCD, 44.1/16bit. $26 per each, same for mofi and dcc gold RBCD. those of you who love em, BUY EM. but youre encouraging windfall profiteering by a large corp like jvc! not with MY hard earned dollars!

[Jack G]

>>>this bodes well for dsd/sacd to become the de facto standard of recording.<<<

This may eventually be true, if all of the studios are willing to switch over to DSD recording equipement.
How many SACDs are DSD recorded? What is the precentage?

>>>even the telarc soundstream reocrdings sounded good on vinyl (50k sampling) so dsd should sound that much better on vinyl. <<<
I'ld rather have analog recordings for my vinyl.

>>>even the beloved (espen$ive) XRCD is still RBCD, 44.1/16bit. $26 per each<<<
I didn't pay nearly that much for any of my XRCDs.

>>>but youre encouraging windfall profiteering by a large corp like jvc!<<<
That is so much better than paying large corporations for SACD reissued dreggs like the Jonny Cash SACD, or the Stone's SACDs .

Jack

[hifitommy]

there is a lot of other recording equipment out there including analog which would fare well with sacd release. and the other higher rez digital formats wont have to be dumbed down to redbook. numbers i cant give you but in time, we may benefit from dsd in a big way.

i also would rather have analog for my vinyl source but if the original recording was done in dsd, its still going to sound better than the lower rez digital sources.

the list prices for xrcd are as i stated. i paid $16 for a used one and it will be the only one. its no bargain, even at used pricing. they should be only slightly more than regular rbcd product.

the reissues that have been made available are no less droll than the ones made available on rbcd when that format first came out. and they made the foolish disclaimer on the packaging that 'flaws of analog recording would be revealed'. what about the flaws and omissions of 44.1/16 bit??

i have bought some of the reissues such as mingus-ah um, and am quite happy with them as vinyl copies are all astronomically priced for discs in perfect condition. the worst that can happen is that the original tape would have deteriorated. given a good original tape, we have close to as good as it can get for music that old.

[Jack G]

>>>and the other higher rez digital formats wont have to be dumbed down to redbook. numbers i cant give you but in time, we may benefit from dsd in a big way.<<<
They aren't all that common, unfortunately. We *will* benefit if DSD becomes the norm for recording equipment. That, is a rather expensive proposition, and not too many studios are switching over yet. Since Sony owns quite a few record labels now, they should switch all of their recording equipement over to DSD. Am I the only one who feels like Sony's heart isn't really in it?

>>> the worst that can happen is that the original tape would have deteriorated. given a good original tape, we have close to as good as it can get for music that old<<<

Not true. My UK pressing of "Let it Bleed" is superior to the SACD.
In some(many/most?) cases, the reissues are also *remixes* which may be good or bad.

If there are only 1200 or so SACDs (not alot for the time SACD has been around) out there, whouldn't it behoove Sony et. al. not to put out sub-par SACDs? God knows they have enough material to work with.

As I said previously, there is alot of potential in SACD, and I hope that it does catch on.
Time will tell.
Jack

[Dr. No-No]

Jack, I'll ease your pain.

Please ship me your SACD player and all SACDs that annoy you.

I will pay for shipping only as you hate the "sound."

You ARE RIGHT. It will NEVER make it.

I'll check my front porch daily///

Regards,

Joe

[millerdog]

Wait! Didn't Jack just say how he hopes SACD WILL catch on? Kinda jumping the gun there Joe;)
This thread was a good read! I am like Jack, the SACD title list didn't really turn me on. I get the Musicdirect and Elusivedisc catalogs too.
The availability of reasonably priced SACD players got my attention too. I guess I just gotta get one and see how it compares to vinyl:)

[sasaki kojiro]

Not true. My UK pressing of "Let it Bleed" is superior to the SACD. In some(many/most?) cases, the reissues are also *remixes* which may be good or bad.


To be fair, many of our old favorite originally-released-on-vinyl titles have been hack remastered to redbook as well.

In the proccess of remastering to SACD, there are a few titles that have come out beautifully, imo. Santana Abraxas and the Japan/ Weather Report Black Market come to mind. There are others. Not having an SACD player anymore, I really miss those SACDs.

Format potential and recording/remastering quality are two different but interdependent issues. You can't just pick up a couple of discs and expect to find out what SACD is all about. Just think if you did that with vinyl or redbook?

[Jack G]

Originally posted by millerdog
Wait! Didn't Jack just say how he hopes SACD WILL catch on?

I said it quite a few times, and I mean it. What the record companies need to do, is just start putting out EVERYTHING on hybrid discs, and forget about CDs. If they do that, this whole thread would be moot. Note:Watch the hybrids by Crest, they tend to crack.
That said, if it stays the way it is today(limited selection/limited exposure etc.), its future is not as certain.
I've heard some glorous sounding SACDs, so I have an idea of whats possible.
Oh, and Joe-why don't you pick up a copy of the Jonny Cash SACD. I'm sure you'll cherish it forever.
Enjoy,
Jack

[Dr. No-No]

Miller. send me your player and discs also.

Let's see, anyone here try to rip a SACD?

I just wonder?

Regards.

JOE

[Dr. No-No]

btw: JACK, I know what Johnny did in regards to Roy O.

Are you saying his music sucks?

Perhaps you are the person who doesn't understand. If you want to slam Cash then so be it.

I'm sure all of your musical hero's played in prisons for free....

I'm sure they connected country to blues for the masses!

Of course you are tainted by the fact I'm from the South.

Perhaps you need to study history.

Regards,

Joe

[millerdog]

Joe, perhaps you need to reread my post! I don't have an SACD player or SACDs:rolleyes:
I was just commenting on why I haven't sampled that format.

[Jack G]

Originally posted by Dr. No-No
btw: JACK, I know what Johnny did in regards to Roy O.

Are you saying his music sucks?

Perhaps you are the person who doesn't understand. If you want to slam Cash then so be it.

I'm sure all of your musical hero's played in prisons for free....

I'm sure they connected country to blues for the masses!

Of course you are tainted by the fact I'm from the South.

Perhaps you need to study history.

Regards,

Joe


OH FOR CRISSAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not discussing the MUSIC. I bought it because of the music. I just hate the fact that it makes 8-tracks sound good in comparison.
If you cannot tell, than perhaps you need a better system.
This mindless, dogged defense has the level I would expect from a 6 year old.
Put the crackpipe down...

Jack

[Dr. No-No]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Miller, I did read your thread.

Jack, I'm way past 6 and have never smoked crack.

Actually Jack, you jogged a fond memory of me and my 8-track in my 74 Chevy in 1974.

Guys, I'm not tone deaf.

Maybe you're right Jack. I'll talk to God about a new system as I've been using this one for 52 years. Thanks for the input. Also, I'm not blind yet. I do understand your concern for my hearing. I am concerned myself.

Like I said earlier, if it moves you buy it. Many people ask me why the songs sound so pure? I said it's the SACD. Perhaps, I'm wrong. Perhaps they were only gracious guests who went out and bought SACD Players. Maybe they have better systems.

I still say listen to what YOU ENJOY.

No offense to anyone.

However, there were some great 8-track days way back when.

Personally, back in those days I used a great big TEAC. I like reel-to-reel. I don't like it anymore although I have many 7" reels.

Anyway, I didn't mean to anger anyone.

Regards,

Joe

BTW: You might want to listen to some CASH........I appreciate some of his songs. He really didn't move me..Let's talk History....a new thread...

[millerdog]

No real offense taken here Joe.
Just remember we are all here because of one thing: the music:D

[Dr. No-No]

Miller, thanks. It is about the music.

Yes, I support SACD. Maybe, I'm a fool.

I've been a fool many times.

I still like the sound. I also don't want the format to disappear.

Jack, no hard feelings here......

.Regards.....

Joe

[moondog]

"Personally, back in those days I used a great big TEAC. I like reel-to-reel. I don't like it anymore although I have many 7" reels."

You can send them my way then. I STILL love open reels.
I'll check my front porch daily. ;)

mOOn

[gonzo]

Hello all, the music is the source and its all relative.Where do you start,8 tracks,cassettes,lp,ep,mini disks,reel to reel,dat,cd,sacd and lets not forget Sonys super cassette.The whole thing is a money making rerelease,the music is the same but the quality format has been tweeked numerous times over the years.I look at it like new cars,it just does it a little better each new model.Super audio is very nice but there is something else out there on the horizion that we are not seeing.I live to fire up my system watching and listening to protection circuits click on.The smell of the older equipment and the rows of albums,the art work,readable liner notes.I get disappointed to see new digital releases of disc I all ready have and why was this done so late?The bottom line,beyond that who cares,if your happy and it floats your boat.Crank it.
Gonzo

[Dr. No-No]

Moon , PM me or email is better. I'll ship you all of those home recordings from the late 60's. Of course the tapes may now be shot.

You pay shipping, I'll send them.

BUYER BEWARE !!!!

Regards,

Joe