Dear Friends,

I recently had a fine audition with a C-46 and MC 402 driving the KEF Reference 207. I am targeting the C-200 and the MC 602 for these speakers. The store uses only Tributaries. When I asked the salesperson for a recommendation he said his customers say that MIT and Transparent work expecially well well giving bloom. Since I am totally closed to cables with network boxes I am wondering what you guys have experimented with and what you like. Audiogon again seems to mention MIT. Others say Cardas but I have found Cardas to be mid-rangey. Does anyone run Acoustic Zen?

Thank you in advance for your time and attention in this matter.
(A competing store said that due to the binding posts on the back MacIntosh recommends 12 gauge Monster Cable. Needless to say I am not interested in Monster. I am interested in low capacitance interconnects and low inductance speaker cable. Ideally low on both counts. But please tell me what works. I would also like to hear from those of you who have Mac and B&W .
Sincerely,
Christopher Frank

The MC602 uses 200 amp 5 way binding posts that accept any cable made. The person you talked with must have been missinformed...

Ron-C

Thank you. Ron, it is my understanding that Tributaries were designed by one of the founders of McIntosh. Nevertheless have you ever done an analysis from the user cards as to what new McIntosh owners (especially of the upper echelon amps and preamps) are using overall in cabling? I'm guessing no such analysis has been done but such a database might be useful. Mac dealers all use the phrase we would rather you put the money in a stand alone DAC implying cable differences are minimal. In short they consistantly play cabling down. There is such a thing as synergy. In fact the cable company maintains just such a database whereby owners of certain gear can inquire what works best of all the owner auditions. Since they sell everything there is no agenda; they will just as soon sell one brand of cable to you as another. System synergy exists and that most definitely includes cable. What say you? Can you tell us what exists on those owner card as regards cables?

McIntosh does not recommend cables, your dealer does. With the power of a big amp like the MC602 12 gage or larger will allow the power to get to your speakers. I think one thing everyone can agree on about cables is that there are enough opinions to support a lot of cable companies. Everyone has their favorite so we have no consensus.

Ron-C

Dear Ron,

However unintended it sounds to me that you are ducking my question. You certainly
have access to the customer cards and their preferences. I WAS NOT ASKING YOU FOR AN ENDORSEMENT of anything. I was asking you to share with the members of this group (your customers) what the breakdown is among Mac owners re: their preferences of cables. Without in anyway intending disrespect I have followed very closely a great many of your responses to inquiries and they often seem to be unresponsive (the no answer- answer).

Thankfully Chuck Hinton has been very honest with candor to my questions in the past. In fact I consistently can count on him for sincere and forthright info based on technical facts (the MC 602 vs. MC 501 for example).

So here is a direct question: What cables are presently in YOUR system at home? In other words given your exposure to all that is out there what is your preference as evidenced by what is present in your system?

To be clear, we will not take what you say as an endorsement. The need to be political is not lost on me given your role as spokesperson. Observing you not really responding in the past (however great is the demand to be politically correct so as not to seem partial to one manufacturer over another) is still off putting however.

Christopherf,
I guess I'm the first to vote.
Here are my cable findings in my system (C2200,MC162,MR85,MVP851). I started with Monster cables which I found to be too bright in my system, my speakers are Avalon Eclipse which tend to be a little bright. The Monster cables made my ears ring and I don't think they would go well with B&W speakers as I find these speakers also are on the bright side. I bought a XLR Tributaries interconnect on an Ebay auction and I found this cable to be dull, it seemed to be covering up details. To be fair to Tributaries this is only one cable and since I did not buy it new it could be damaged or or a factory second and this is a bad way to judge a company. I will not buy any more cables online and I don't recomend buying a cable you can't demo first. I have demoed Acoustic Zen cables and these were very good and neutral and I was happy with these cables untill I tried MIT. The MIT cables removed all the harshness from my system and allowed more detail threw than any cable I have heard. I find the best way to demo interconnects is with two of the same tuners, when I did this with MIT interconnects the extra detail the MIT cables let threw could easily be heard as improved imaging, stereo seperation and reverb.

I am a big MIT fan. The Oracle wires are fantastic, I use Oracle 2.1. The Magnum series is probably the best deal for the money. The Shotgun series is ok. The AVT series I don't like, you would be better off with Acoustic Zen. These cables are all big money, don't even think about buying them without a home demo.

Also you said "I am targeting the C-200 and the MC 602" this would be great but I would go with a pair of MC501s over the MC602. The MC501s are the best amps I have ever had in my home, The McIntosh stereo amps did a good job of making my speakers "disappear" but the MC501 monoblocks made my speakers, walls, floor and celling "disappear". :D

Victor

Christoperf,

You hit the nail on the head when you said " your exposure to everything out there". I have not had this exposure nor do I have an interest in auditioning cables. So how can I give you an opinion?
I must have 20 or 30 brands of cables laying around the house and in various systems. There are hundreds or more out there though so I am not the one to ask....
My systems have , Canare, Tributaries, MIT, Soundstream, Signet, Monster, Kimber, Ethereal, Hitachi, Belden, SME, Carol, AMP, and others in use...
I guess i do not have a favorite brand.

Ron-C

Asking this question is akin to asking what kind of art is "best". Opinions about the MC501 vs the MC601 is much more of a measurable question. Cable opinions and claims can be interchangeable with reading the opinions in the "Wine Spectator".

Has anybody read the product descriptions new Kimber Kable catalog? I think that they make great products, but please come back down to earth!

I wish that I knew what cables would sound "best" in my system. If I knew I would have saved a lot of cash. I have a couple of sets of speaker cables, interconnects, XLR cables etc. sitting new in their boxes in my closet waiting for me to list them on Audiogon. Nothing wrong with them at all, I just "think" that what I am using right now in my system is "better," but what do I know?

I think that it is good to buy a high quality cable that is priced decently, that other folks that you know like, and plug it in give it a whirl and listen to some music that you really love and know.

After all, this is supposed to be fun and about passion for what we enjoy!

Don't take it to seriously....

Michael

Homemade teflon tube ICs with twisted 32 ga. magnet wire and gold plated compression plugs (teflon interior). Speaker cables are twisted and wrapped former heavy duty extension cords from Home Depot. These are used on both Mc setups (all SS).

With my C46/MC402/adsL980's, I use generic RCA interconnects and the speaker cables are some kind of fat Monster Cable that my son got from a car audio installer guy.

I bought a heavy duty surge protector/outlet strip from Home Depot and I put cheater plugs on the preamp and amp 3-prong plugs (to guard against the dreaded ground loop hum).

The resulting sound is clean and clear.

Harmonic Technology Pro9's front and center, Monster M1.2 surrounds, mostly Tributarie interconnects. I cannot believe how much I spend on wires. It all sounds great and I will NOT be experimenting.

The Absolute Sound did a column comparing a bunch of cables. They get so rediculously esoteric in those reviews. However they included 14 guage Home Depot outdoor extension cords as a serious speaker wire contender. They said they were really quite good. While I found this intriguing, I'll stick with my Harmonic Tech's.

Now stop playing with the wires and go listen to your music!

-JR-

Tributaries work for me. I get them for free from my dealer. They are in the 30 dollar range each, so they are not in the high buck area. While they sound better than the .99 cent cables that come with many cheap electronics, I couldn't justify spending any more than that. Of course, being free helps.


Others I have tried include Monster, Belden, and Rat Shack.

Bottom line is use whatever sounds best to you. After all music is a personal experience, right?


Artie

Well, i would suggest the Grover Huffman cables that they sell thru the Steve Hoffman web site,,,,I like them a lot...

For Mike175gr,

It is more than a "hobby" for me, it is a passion. It is good that you are in the position to purchase many different brands of cables, keep them in your closet and sell them off on Audiogon. I only want to get married ONCE. So which cables did you end up keeping? What does your system consist of and what cables sound best to YOU?

My wife and I are in the position to spend (when all is said and done) close to $50,000 on a system including turntable phono stage and cartridge. This is a very considerable some of money so to be told not to take the matter so seriously is ...I don't know what. Even if my budget were $5,000 I would be equally as conscientious about finding pieces that worked the most synergistically. Call me anal call me whatever but don't tell someone not to take take it "too seriously." I have waited my entire life for this to manifest and yours is just a cavalier attitude. I know people who upgrade all the time. Yes it is about the music. I have no intention of getting into that consciousness, so I am trying to the best of my ability to get it right the first time. As for your wine analogy ---not quite the same thing although some red zinfandels and some chardonnays pair better with some foods than others ---and I am in no way a wine snob---I can enjoy them all ---call it wine and meal synergy---

That is a considerable amount of money, but dont follow that equation where some percentage of the budget has to be cables...

get some simple copper, simple silver and and a pair of hybrids, and see which you like better, and sell back the others. Only try with used cables, so you wont lose $$ in the process...

If you find that you like one over the other, then get whatever approximates that cable. I seriously think that regardless of the price of the hardware, you dont need esoteric price cable....

Cables in my system make no difference but I am not going to argue with people who say that they do make a difference. If you can always run XLR interconnects and a well shielded cable if you are using the RCA connections. As for speakers cables you need to make sure the the guage is of proper size and you get a solid connection with the amp and speaker.

Vintage McIntosh was "voiced" with plain old copper wire. Some say that vintage Western Electric wire is the best.

Chris,

No worries at all. I was having a little bit of fun as well.

My system consists of a Mcintosh MX119, MC207, Denon 3910, Monster AVS2000SS, HTS5100SS, Tivo HD HR10-250, Samsung HLP5063, Vienna Acoustics Mahler for the front, Maestro for the center, and Waltzs for the surrounds. I also have a Velodyne HGS12 subwoofer. My components are sitting in a Salamander triple 20 cabinet.

For interconnects I have some Wasatch Cable Works XLR-205 cables, some Tributaries and Signal Cable. For speaker and power cables I am using the Signal Cable products.

I am pretty impressed with the sound is coming out of what I have put together, especially that I have realy tried to be a smart shopper about it. I didn't spend $50k, but the retail price is pretty darn close.....

I had to bring up the Kimber catalog becuase I thought it was a little funny.

My struggle has been where to start with cable choice? Do you try Monster, and then go with MIT? I just tried to read a bunch and listent to what I could.

The ideal situation would be to have a dealer that could give you ten or so different sets of cables and try them out.

After a bunch of testing (with the right meal and glass of wine) you could decide and keep the one that "works" for you.

If you could do a blind "taste test" independent of price that would be the best.

I also am really fond of quality Cabernets...

Just have fun with it, it is like art....

Michael

I'd stick with Tributaries for one reason - they're the same folks that build Mac! And, they have a good product mix from budget to high priced. If you did want to go one step further, then I agree that MIT would be the one to go for.
My 2 cents. :D

Speltz "anti-cables" for my speakers, I use custom IC's so I wont comment on these as you cant get them anymore.

Just to name another, I use Van den Hul.
- Thunderline Hybrid as CDP interconnect.
- D-352 Hybrid as speaker cable.

BTW, they have usefull info on their website.

Ok, help a guy out here. Does the beeswax go on the interconnects, the speaker cables or both?

Murray

If zip cord was good enough for Mr. Gow, it's good enough for me!

'Other' seems to be holding a slim lead as we round the first corner....

We should start a thread about cables that make a McIntosh sound bad. I don't know of any off hand though..unless they are out of phase or something is miss made by mistake.

Ron-C

'Other' seems to be holding a slim lead as we round the first corner....

We should start a thread about cables that make a McIntosh sound bad. I don't know of any off hand though..unless they are out of phase or something is miss made by mistake.

Ron-C:lmao:

Well designed electronics shouldn't be affected by cable caracteristics (capacitance, etc), when they are within "normal" limits.

And alot of systems don't have longer than 3' interconnects and 12' speaker cable, so they are pretty negligible. We are not talking MHz here ;)

I wouldn't put Radio-Scrap cables (even if it just for reliability reasons), but I wouldn't put more than 5-10% of the value of the system in cables either. I'm not saying that cables are zero importance... but why put a 600$ cable on a 1000$ CD player..?


And Ron, you got a great point!

:lmao:

Well designed electronics shouldn't be affected by cable caracteristics (capacitance, etc), when they are within "normal" limits.

And alot of systems don't have longer than 3' interconnects and 12' speaker cable, so they are pretty negligible. We are not talking MHz here ;)

I wouldn't put Radio-Scrap cables (even if it just for reliability reasons), but I wouldn't put more than 5-10% of the value of the system in cables either. I'm not saying that cables are zero importance... but why put a 600$ cable on a 1000$ CD player..?


And Ron, you got a great point!

The comment about "MHz" is right on.

The comment about "MHz" is right on.

That is the main thing that bothers me about how cable people explain why it sounds different. They will use laws which only apply to the mega and giga hertz region or when you start to put 50,000 - 100,000 watts through a cable.

Well, i would suggest the Grover Huffman cables that they sell thru the Steve Hoffman web site,,,,I like them a lot...

To tell you the truth, this is what I use. Excellent sound on my tube system. I was disappointed in Kimber*, Silver Sonic, Lindsay Geyer (sp?) and "zip" wire type stuff. Van Den Hull was pretty good but the Grovers are amazing.

* Still have Kimber sor my solid state system.

Since we are on the subject of cables-here is a link that may be of interest.

http://ultimateavmag.com/features/605cable/

I use Revelation Audio Labs. I have a question for Ron-C. What brand of cables does McIntosh use for DEMO shows like CEDIA, CES and RMAF or even when testing new products/designs at the factory?

We use a different brand at each show. They all want to be in the booth so we rotate them..
MIT at RMAF...
Ron-C

In another thread, Ron-C made the point that sonic differences between cables are likely to be much smaller with balanced cables than with RCAs. I found this so intriguing that I gathered some cables from friends and we experimented. At least in my system, it appears correct. It was very hard to hear the differences between balanced cables compared to the differences between unbalanced. Of course, I'm deaf...

As far as the MIT cables at RMAF the system sounded sublime with them. The system was C1000, driving MC275s in mono, XRT28s with MDA1000/MVP861 as a source. The system retailed for $55,000, most of which was the preamp and the cables were $7500.
No, I did not compare the sound with other cables.

Ron-C

I've also tried several brands of cables for my mac system. Just like Victor, I wanted a smooth and non-fatiguing listening experience but I do not like to compromise on the dynamics and level of detail retrieval. Cables are a personal thing and subjected to listeners' preferences.

The best speaker cables I've heard in my system so far:
1) XLO Signature
2) Cardas Golden Reference
3) Analysis Plus Oval 8

The best interconnects I've used so far:
1) XLO Signature
2) Straightwire Crescendo
3) Cardas Golden Reference and Cardas Golden Cross (both worked equally well in my system)

Next up on my audition list will be the Audience AU24 speaker cables and interconnects which received glowing reviews from STEREOPHILE and other renown audio publications.

I've also heard the Nordost Valhallas in the showroom but was not impressed by it perhaps due to them being in a non-mac set-up. :D

received glowing reviews from STEREOPHILE and other renown audio publications.


they would recommend anything...

they would recommend anything...
No, you have to buy advertising first. ;)

Carl

No, you have to buy advertising first. ;)

Carl

I forgot,,,nothing comes for free... :no:

The best speaker cables I've heard in my system so far:
1) XLO Signature
2) Cardas Golden Reference
3) Analysis Plus Oval 8

The best interconnects I've used so far:
1) XLO Signature
2) Straightwire Crescendo
3) Cardas Golden Reference and Cardas Golden Cross


I hope you are running the XRT-28's at a minimum in order to blow that kind of money on cables.

I have in my possession an article written by James H. Hayward "retired from Bell Canada after 28 years of managing Special Services Engineering and Operations groups in areas including CATV, Data Communications and Radio Systems..." He is an audiophile and pianist. His article compares different cables employed in home audio systems.

I do not have a scanner. If someone would be kind enough to provide a fax number I am only to glad to fax this article as a service to all (especially those in the Mac forum). Ron is then free to be dismissive of it. Measurements of many popular brands are included as well as comparisons of cable samples for both interconnects and speaker cables The article appeared in Audio Ideas Guide.

Great Titles for the two articles: Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the Foo Foo Dust and the second article Making the Connection, Part Deux A Closer Look At The Role of Loudspeaker Cables What's Good For The Interconnect Is Not Necessarily Good For The Speaker Cable

Sincerely,
Christopher Frank

christopherf:

You seem wound a little tight for a cable question. I can "Google" stereo cable and come up with 10 reasons not to spend more than $10,99 for speaker cable and 10 reasons (mostly from retailers of the cable and people who spend WAY too much money on their systems and seem they need to justify the cable expense with some esoteric response on how the music seemed better) to spend the most money on the cable. I have always thought of it this way...the wires from the crossover to the drivers are very low-tech, if you believe your "high performance" wires are bring a better signal to the crossover why loose all that perceived gain to some cheap wire from the crossover to the driver? Here's two pieces of good advice for FREE, 1. don't waste your $50,000 on a system, spend a third of it and NOBODY will know the difference and 2. invest the rest.

Apropos your "why lose all that perceived gain to some cheap wire from the crossover to the driver?" many of the better speaker manufacturers use better cables inside their cabinets. (Perhaps you can Google this subject too). Some designers have tested various cables and gone so far as endorsing a particular brand (beyond using the brand inside of their speakers). There is a major speaker manufacturer that although in the past pooh poohed cables is now in negotiations with a cable manufacturer after a demo of their speakers with the only change being a change in the internal cabling. I still have no takers on the article I have offered to fax for posting?

I defy anyone to open their speakers up and find an "audiophile" cable running from the crossover to the driver. I would imagine 95% of the speakers on the market today are not using anything better than an upgraded lamp cord. And for the major speaker manufacturer that is now negotiating to use a "better" cable, he is for sure getting some marketing money from that company to use those cables.

Take your pack of, stand at ease, smoke em if ya got em and go to radio shack buy various speaker wires/cables and make your decision based on how they sound. Take the savings and take your wife to dinner or a vacation! Trust me, it will be money well spent

Just what the world needs, another cable debate.

Good news is, you can sign up for the AK Cable Swap program for FREE in the near future.

Lets get the thread back on track, for the original poster.

Here (http://204.10.140.18/forums/showthread.php?t=49022) is the link to the Cable Demo thread.

12 ga. Sound King. Made in USA, about $43 for a 100' roll, 10 ga. for about $64. Parts Express.

Murray

Ernie Burke (aka luvinvinyl)
was kind enough to provide his fax number and receive 12 pps of "Technical Discussion on Audio Interconnects, Source/load impedances & their combined interactions" (though my wife chastised me for sending an overseas fax that took forever). He will scan the article and post it. To cut to the chase and save you the delight of looking at wonderful graphs here is the bottom line:

"The recipe for a superior interconnect is one that allows some increase in series inductance and resistance in order to obtain less shunt CAPACITANCE. Similarly, the recipe for a superior speaker cable is one that allows some increase in shunt capacitance in order to reduce series INDUCTANCE and resistance.

How can we OBJECTIVELY prove this is true? Review the risetime measurements and note the correlation with cable parameters."

Rise Time Tells The Tale

The cable with the shortest risetime is the one with the largest bandwidth and is therefore the most desirable (Bandwidth+0.35/risetime). Risetime is an excellent indicator of uniform frequency and phase response within the audio spectrum. In our previous article on interconnect cables note the correlation between risetime and cable capacitance. Clearly the lowest capacitance cables have the shortest risetime and should be your first choice to work in a high impedance interconnect interface. Our speaker speaker cable measurements here show a strong correlation between risetime and cable inductance. Clearly the lowest inductance cables have the shortest risetime and should be your first choice to work in a low impedance power amp/speaker interface

Note too, that the cables with the best risetime also have the flattest cable impedance versus frequency results. This ensures that they have the flattest, and therefore the best frequency response."

The cable with the shortest risetime is the one with the largest bandwidth and is therefore the most desirable
If you take into account that the source/amp aren't perfect, then an interconnect with a lower rise time could still "sound" better if it compensates for them.

What I mean, is that a source or amp with a very fast rise time and feedback can ring a little bit after a transient, so if a cable "slows down" fast rising signals, then it will also filter out that high frequency ringing (caused by feedback, and probably causing listener fatigue in this case; I think sound sound will be crisp and "detailed" but in a harsh way).

So I think theory is saying "just listen to your system, the *combinaison* must be designed to work well together" or "one good cable can't be designed for all the source/amp/speaker combinaisons in the world".

many of the better speaker manufacturers use better cables inside their cabinets.

What about the voice coil and the crossover its self, they are all plain copper.

Don't forget the pc boards on which the crossover components are connected to. The winding in the inductor as well... :smoke:

I personally believe that the source components affect the sound more than anything else. A good experiment would be to replace your current cd/dvd player with a playstation. Bandpass filter...

IIRC, AudioNote makes speakers with silver wire, throughout, even down to silver foil inductors, and silver wire voicecoils. Sadly, they are WAY out of my price range. The various ANs I have heard had copper point-to-point wiring, no pcb's, Nordost, I think.

I have scanned a page of the 10-page article, and the file must be sliced into 8 pieces, to retain legibilty. That means 80 attachments, at AK's maximum attachment size. High density, small font, and some loss of resolution from the fax, even at superfine. Gonna take a couple of days.

IIRC, AudioNote makes speakers with silver wire, throughout, even down to silver foil inductors, and silver wire voicecoils. Sadly, they are WAY out of my price range.

And they run $200,000 for the speakers and $6000 for a meter of wire! Just because they are using silver does not mean that it will sound different. Silver conducts a tiny bit better then copper so their setup would run a little more efficient. I think it has to do with the construction and design of the cables and weither that sounds different.

OK, here is the article that christopherf faxed me, from California. I have hosted the pics at photobucket, here (http://photobucket.com/albums/d71/luvvinvinyl/?sc=3). This is the highest level of resolution I could get, after my scanner crapped out on me.

For some reason, probably my ineptitude with photobucket software, the pics are not in page order, but they are titled correctly.

At this point, I have no opinion on the article, as I have not read it, much less investigated some of the claims. I post them here, as a favour to christopherf, and for your interest. I may have a comment after I read the article.

Or, not, depending on my level of understanding.

Is it possible to create a locked forum for cable articles? The one Ernie just posted seems good, and there's one by Nelson Pass (I think on Pass Labs website) that is similar.

I'm not looking to create a war zone, but rather, a reference place for people to site in non-flame discussions; hence the locked nature.