Should I get an APS 9 or 13?
I will be putting up an outdoor antenna/rotor. My real object is to get around the east bay hills to receive a great stereo signal from San Jose area. I currently receive fair to acceptable mono there with indoor antenna. Everywhere else is not an issue.
I want the best possible signal but do not want to spend where it is not needed of course.
Also, 75 ohm coax or 300 ohm with an amp for the lead?
The link is to the google relef map. I live right above the l and C in El Cerrito on the map the link opens to.
Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.804444,-122.269722&spn=0.280483,0.492325&z=6&t=h&hl=en)

Thanks, Carl

I guess if you can afford it, get the 13. Also, make sure whatever you mount it on is as tall as possible, maybe even a antenna mast. I would go 75 ohm all the way with the best RG cable possible, I think there is some low loss cable, but forget the number. It comes with a ground wire attached.

Talk to Ed Hanlon at Antenna Performance who manufactures the APS13.
He would probably recommend RG-6 low-loss 75 coax which is better quality than RG-59 (which is more common) with a head unit right at the antenna. Don't use any type of headamp, some cause considerable noise. Ed has tested most and knows which are the better ones.

Carl... how far away is the transmitter?

My opinion is that if you are dealing with a distance of less than 50 miles, the maximum gain possible is not as much of a concern, and other characteristics of the antenna may be more important.

I'm thinking of issues like the antenna's ability to reject or isolate multipath signals, which might be an issue if you are dealing with nearby obstacles like highrise structure, hills, mountains, etc...

Obviously the APS13 will have higher gain, and will be slightly larger in size (and cost..).

Higher elevation on a tower or mast of some kind may be more useful than slightly more gain.

I would guess that if the distance in the 50-75 mile range, the additional gain may be worthwhile.

.... just my 2 cents.

Also, make sure whatever you mount it on is as tall as possibleI will be having a new 2nd story roof soon so I want to do this now while they are up there. I can't really walk on uneven surfaces since my work accident and basically free install is nothing to sneeze at.

I guess if you can afford it, get the 13.
Yes, but to pay double when not necessary, that is where I get cheap. :yes:


Carl

I would guess that if the distance in the 50-75 mile range, the additional gain may be worthwhile.

That is what is is allright.

Carl

Talk to Ed Hanlon at Antenna Performance who manufactures the APS13.
He would probably recommend RG-6 low-loss 75 coax which is better quality than RG-59 (which is more common) with a head unit right at the antenna. Don't use any type of headamp, some cause considerable noise. Ed has tested most and knows which are the better ones.
Thanks, I will do that after getting some non anal and impartial opinions here.
This forum is so very great in that regard. :smoke:


Carl

Sheesh, the 13 is nearly 17' long, which, well, is a really big antenna. It's just hard for me to imagine that big of an antenna on the roof of a residence in a mom and pop residential area. That's just me, tho. I'd for sure try the smaller one and if it doesn't do what you want, someone here would buy it (like, me).

Don't forget to get waterproof F connectors for the outside. PE 090-331. Their little plastic coax stripper works pretty good too. PE 360-605.

Murray

WOW is it really that big!?!?

As for coax.... don't even think about RG-59..that is the old Cable-TV standard coax.

RG-6 should be the minimum.... it is the standard for most Satellite TV installations.

Also, Be aware that some RG-6 cable is actually made using a copper-clad steel center conductor. If possible, get the kind using a solid copper core.

Thanks, I will do that after getting some non anal and impartial opinions here.
This forum is so very great in that regard. :smoke:
Carl

Of course, none of my posts are anal. :D It's the other guy's.

Murray

Edit: APS-13 photo

.. does that make me the anal guy? :butt1: LOL

Anyway... www.antennaperformance.com has all the details... and yes the APS-13 really is that big!!! The APS-9 is roughly half the size..

Based on size and costs, I would be leaning towards the APS-9, but it might be enlightening to hear from someone who actually owns one of these antennas to learn what kind of results they are getting.

Carl, I have the APS-9 on my roof; love it, and it's gone through three hurricanes with no damage.
I get stations clear across the state, even though Florida is pretty flat, that's pretty good distance just the same. The 9 is much easier on a rotor too because of the smaller size. I don't think you'll have any problem getting San Jose and beyond!
Ed makes a wonderfully strong and well built ant., and I'm glad I got mine!
Go with the recommended coax too! You'll love it. I'm using a channel master rotor w/ remote; neat to push a couple of buttons, and then tune in the "other" stations.

Hi everyone.....What is the significance ,electrically, of a 75 ohms or a 300 ohms antenna when connected to a tuner. That said what would happen if a 300 ohms antenna were connected to a 75 ohms input and vice versa ?

Skippy..thanks for your recent reply regarding multiple tuner connection to a single antenna..I will give it a try ..however I am trying to learn as much as I can regarding antenna theory and practices when it comes to FM antennas

I was having some cable TV issues last summer, cable guy came out and replaced the old RG-6 with new cable and gained about 2-3 DB signal. So, that's definitely worth doing.

You don't need the APS13 if you are getting a signal at all from an indoor antenna. Units that large are for when you live further from the signal usually around 80 miles or more. If there is something blocking the signal, a larger antenna will help sometimes but not most times. In your case the biggest factor is going to be the height of the antenna. Using the APS13 for a 50 mile distance would be a waste of money. I am not the cheap type. If I though the bigger antenna would be at all worth it, I'd say go for it. But my experience growing up in the country side where big antenna like that are worth it and living in the suburbs is you don't need it. Once you mount the APS9 on the roof, since you are getting a signal with an indoor antenna, that will be more than enough. That's been the case every time when I've installed antennas.

Thanks All!
An APS 9 it is, with rotor, and RG-6 with solid copper core it is. :smoke:

I'd for sure try the smaller one and if it doesn't do what you want, someone here would buy it (like, me).
Sorry Murray, but I will tell you how well Greg Kihn's radio show comes in with
great separation. :)

Trying to figure out my best rooftop HDTV antenna option for the future.
A fixed antenna at 198 degrees is what/all I need, I will get Ed's opinion
when I order tomorrow, but all thoughts are welcome too.

Carl

Drat! I've lusted for an APS-9 but I need a TV antenna as I'm on Dish and can't get any local (even LA) channels thru Dish. Or, I gotta sign up for Time Warner cable which was dreadful when I had it years ago.

Just got notifed by RR that since I ain't got no cable tv, they're going to tack on another $5 a mo for cable modem which is already $45!/mo. No dsl where I am.

Ok, sorry for the minor hijack.

Neato deal on the APS-9 and rotator! I want one!

Murray

I have dish network and thankfully they do give local channels. Seems odd
that for 10 dollars less amonth than Comcast basic non digtal I get 50 more channels with a better picture than my cable ever had. Comcast also wants
25 dollars a month more for their DSL than the SBC, both with 100 modems,
as fast as is offered here. Bandits!
No HDTV service when I do get a set that has it though, I believe it is 50. more if I get the Comcast service that has HDTV.

Carl

I should have been more clear - the local stations here in PS aren't hooked up to Dish, likely because the market is too small and the local stations won't sign off so I can get network programming from LA or SD. So, it's over the air or cable. That's it. PBS isn't broadcast over the air here so I can get that but it's from Denver or used to be when I had it.

Every Sunday I look at the adds for hd tv's but my analog Sony is still going strong after about 8 years, so, it's hard to justify the 2.5K for a dlp.

Murray

Oh, OK, PS = Palm Springs? Sweet! :)
It is a small comfort to know your cable service sucks eggs too. We are not the only lucky ones I'm sure.
I use an 18 year old Emerson that still works great, has HF and LF forward firing speakers that sound great but it is hopelessly outdated in features.

Carl

I'm jealous. I've been thinking about getting a nice external antenna with rotor but haven't taken the plunge yet. My pennies have been getting eaten up by other things....but I'll get one of those yet :))

if you haven't already spent the $$$ on the aps9, i would strongly recommend getting a winegard hd6065. half the price of an aps9. a bit more gain than the aps9, w/a bit less rejection of side & back signals. as said before, if ya awreddy get a mono signal w/an indoor antenna, ya don't need anything fancy. i got a winegard 6065 to replace a damaged aps-14 (audiophile wersion of the aps13), & noticed absolutely no signal reduction in a very difficult reception condition - the stations were ~50 miles east of me & i was towards the bottom of a 1200' ridge on the west side.

doug s.

Thanks! :)
A very valid point now that I have realized my needs are not a full tilt antenna. Looking at both there certainly is not a 50. difference.

Carl

if you haven't already spent the $$$ on the aps9, i would strongly recommend getting a winegard hd6065. half the price of an aps9. a bit more gain than the aps9, w/a bit less rejection of side & back signals.



The price is right..... but my understanding of CarlV's situation is that the back and side signal rejection may be a more important characteristic than signal gain.

Carl... are you close enough to the hills/mountains that this is a significant consideration for you?

Apologies if I am complicating your decision... I am wrestling with some of the same issues in my own antenna selection decision.

The price is right..... but my understanding of CarlV's situation is that the back and side signal rejection may be a more important characteristic than signal gain.

Carl... are you close enough to the hills/mountains that this is a significant consideration for you?

Apologies if I am complicating your decision... I am wrestling with some of the same issues in my own antenna selection decision.
certainly a valid point. but, it's not that the hd6065's signal rejection from the sides & rear is *bad*, it's yust not as good as the aps9. but, i stell figure that if an indoor antenna is giving decent mono reception, the hd6065 is more than good enuff. and they're only ~$75.

also i second the recommendation for rg6 over rg59. forget about 300 ohm twinlead. rg11 is best, but it's hard to work with, needs bigger fittings & costs more. unless ya have a really long run, & your signal is borderline, i wouldn't recommend it - rg6 will be fine.

doug s.

but my understanding of CarlV's situation is that the back and side signal rejection may be a more important characteristic than signal gain.
Huh? :headscrat

Carl

CarlV... I may be mistaken, but aren't you located very close to some significant landforms ( hills/mountains, etc..) ?

A transmitted FM signal can bounce off of large landforms, highrise buildings, etc.... causing a phenomenon known as multipath, where you have the same broadcast signal appearing to come from a number of different directions, and arriving slightly out of sync because of the different paths/distances travelled.

Ideally the tuner should be presented with only one signal source on a given frequency... too much multipath signal can create audible distortion.

In my own case, my house is located in the shadow of the Niagara Escaprment which rises like a vertical wall about 2 miles behind me. FM radio transmissions originating from Toronto will reach my antenna, then travel another 2 miles only to bounce off the rock face of the escarpment and come back at me. I suspect I am encountering some multipath distortion as a result, and am hoping that a directional antenna may give better results. Signal strength is not a concern here, as most of the stations I listen to are within 30 miles.

Does that clarify things?

Yes it does, thanks. There is nothing on the sides or behind me. Just not a direct path to San Jose broadcasting.

Carl

Sorry.. my bad! Anyway, as Doug S already stated... the difference between the two antennas may not be very significant in this respect.

Perhaps this discussion will be relevant and useful to someone else.

Sorry.. my bad! Anyway, as Doug S already stated... the difference between the two antennas may not be very significant in this respect.

Perhaps this discussion will be relevant and useful to someone else.
No bad in this thread. 360 hits on this thread for 28 posts so far say so.
Certainly it will be most helpful in the future when searched for, as it is to me and my needs now to buy with confidence what I do need and not what I do not.
I even got a favorite rant of mine about Comcast in here too! :)


Carl

Should I get an APS 9 or 13?
I will be putting up an outdoor antenna/rotor. My real object is to get around the east bay hills to receive a great stereo signal from San Jose area. I currently receive fair to acceptable mono there with indoor antenna. Everywhere else is not an issue.
I want the best possible signal but do not want to spend where it is not needed of course.
Also, 75 ohm coax or 300 ohm with an amp for the lead?
The link is to the google relef map. I live right above the l and C in El Cerrito on the map the link opens to.
Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.804444,-122.269722&spn=0.280483,0.492325&z=6&t=h&hl=en)

Thanks, Carl

Like they say in the real estate business, location is everything. I don't know zip about your specific location, but there are reasons an APS-13 can be a better choice than an APS-9 even if you don't need the extra gain of the APS-13.

As others have suggested, talk to Ed Hanlon at APS and describe your situation, and Ed will make an honest recommendation to you. His business ethics are impeccable and he's more interested in providing a good service to an educated customer than just selling you an antenna and moving on to the next sale.

As for the APS-13, it is a more "directional" antenna than the APS-9 so if you have two stations next to each other, say at 88.5 and 88.7, the APS-13 can sometimes provide a better signal for the specific station you want to listen to.

Same holds true for the APS-9 versus the Winegard HD-6065. In the FM Tuner Group I belong to, there are many who tout the HD-6065 as a less expensive alternative to the APS-9 because they have similar gain figures, but the APS-9 is a superior antenna for adjacent FM channel listening and many overlook this equally important performance fact. And there's no one at Winegard you can call and ask questions of if you need some good technical advice.

Finally, another good reason for an FM antenna to have a narrow reception pattern is IBOC: If this abomination ever becomes widely used, you'll need both a narrow reception pattern on your FM antenna AND a narrow selectivity setting on your tuner to eliminate the adjacent channel noise from any IBOC stations adjacent to the one you may be listening to. :cool:

Like they say in the real estate business, location is everything. I don't know zip about your specific location, but there are reasons an APS-13 can be a better choice than an APS-9 even if you don't need the extra gain of the APS-13.

As others have suggested, talk to Ed Hanlon at APS and describe your situation, and Ed will make an honest recommendation to you. His business ethics are impeccable and he's more interested in providing a good service to an educated customer than just selling you an antenna and moving on to the next sale.

As for the APS-13, it is a more "directional" antenna than the APS-9 so if you have two stations next to each other, say at 88.5 and 88.7, the APS-13 can sometimes provide a better signal for the specific station you want to listen to.

Same holds true for the APS-9 versus the Winegard HD-6065. In the FM Tuner Group I belong to, there are many who tout the HD-6065 as a less expensive alternative to the APS-9 because they have similar gain figures, but the APS-9 is a superior antenna for adjacent FM channel listening and many overlook this equally important performance fact. And there's no one at Winegard you can call and ask questions of if you need some good technical advice.

Finally, another good reason for an FM antenna to have a narrow reception pattern is IBOC: If this abomination ever becomes widely used, you'll need both a narrow reception pattern on your FM antenna AND a narrow selectivity setting on your tuner to eliminate the adjacent channel noise from any IBOC stations adjacent to the one you may be listening to. :cool:

i have a few comments here. re: adjacent channels, & aps antenna being able to better pick the one you want, i think this would be more useful if you have two stations w/their broadcast antenna close to each other, not necessarily two stations which are close to each other on the dial. ie: if you want to listen to a weaker station, whose broadcast antenna is near a much stronger station, then an antenna's better directionality and side-signal rejection ability will come into play more. if these two stations are *also* adjacent channel stations on your tuning dial, then sure, the situation becomes even more critical. if two adjacent channel stations have their broadcast antennae in different locations, the added directionality of your antenna isn't gonna come into play nearly as much. but, it's true - in some situations, the aps' ability to better reject side signals, will make a difference. (this is also a situation that may actually make something like the aps 205 signal sleuth worthwhile, as it gives you the ability to tune the antenna to the signal.)

re: iboc, i agree this is an abomination, & it *will* play havoc with the ability to receive some adjacent channels that are next to channel broadcasting iboc signals. but, i am not sure how much benefit there will be with having a more directional antenna. it will still be getting all the iboc sideband signal in all its nasty glory. it really will be up to the tuna, w/narrow-band capability, & perhaps even the ability to slightly de-tune away from the offending broadcast, that will be the main defense against this problem.

re: the fmtuna group referred to, i am one of its participants who tout the winegard antenna. and, it's not cuz of its on-paper specs. it's cuz i had an aps-14, (ed sez this is the "audiophile" wersion of the aps13), that got replaced w/a winegard hd6065, & i dint have *any* reduction in broadcast signal quality. i am sure there are situations where the aps' better side & back rejection may come into play, (see my comments above, about adjacent channels/adjacent broadcast antennae), that would warrant the added cost of the aps antennae. but, in many situations, the winegard will be just as good.

finally a word about ed hanlon. while you may feel his business ethics are impeccible, let me yust say that i have had business dealings with ed, & have pretty-much the opposite view. as have several other folks i have corresponded with. when i attempted to become an "educated customer" regarding his tuna mods, he became extremely rude, downright nasty actually, accusing me of trying to "steal his trade secrets so i could do the mods myself". :worried: i have never received this kind of response before, & i have used four other modders. :scratch2: in fact, if i *did* wanna do mods myself, there's all the info & help i could use on the tuna forum itself. i was yust trying to compare ed's work w/his competition, & he was having none of it.

ymmv,

doug s.

Doug,

Where are you finding info on these other models of APS antennas... I have only seen the APS-9 and APS-13 on the Antennna Performance Specialties web site.

Regardless of what model antenna you get, don't forget a rotator. Then the issue of adjacent channel interference and selectivity should be moot.

Doug,

Where are you finding info on these other models of APS antennas... I have only seen the APS-9 and APS-13 on the Antennna Performance Specialties web site.
i bought an aps-14 about ten years ago. ed no longer makes it - it's a bit more complicated than the aps-13. not sure if he will custom-make one for ya, but he might, certainly it will cost more. no info about it on his website; i am not sure what makes it "audipohile", that's what ed said on the yahoo fmtuner forum, when questions about it came up...

searching that forum comes up w/this, from ed:

"I found that 75 ohm antennas "sounded better" than their 300 ohm
counterparts - even larger 300 ohm models. By better I mean less
noise. It was very evident and could be heard by anyone listening.
This was corroborated by my antenna "guinea pigs" who I'd send
antennas to for testing and feedback. Why this is, I don't really
know. So the APS-14 was built after MANY design changes and more time
than I care to confess. While it was a terrific antenna, it was heavy,
difficult to build and make a coax connection to. I was pre-building
them prior to shipping to the customer. As sales increased, the 14
became impossible to keep up with and support (assembly was
challenging for the end user), so I stopped fighting city hall and
looked into using standard TV antenna parts to build a replacement for
the 14. The APS-13 is that antenna, and it took only a fraction of the
time to design. I did attempt to make the '13 a 75 ohm model, but the
.11 aluminum phasing wire used to feed the driven elements was too
thin to force into a 75 ohm impedence, so I went with 300. The '13 has
been very successful, a breeze to assemble, and is much lighter with
not one failure in the field (other than the occasional Florida
hurricane)."
================
a followup post, to which ed replied:

John - I'll try to answer your questions one at a time:

> ...when someone later asked why (Ed) didn't build a 75 Ohm antenna.
I think he just trimmed it down

The '13 is actually a few inches longer than the '14.

> Ed's comments do raise a couple of questions though, most important
is what he meant by "noise"?

A more quiet sounding signal.

> Did he simply mean 75 Ohm antennas have more gain and hence
> delivered a stronger, and hence more noise free signal?

No, and as a matter of fact, the reduction in noise was evident even
when compared with larger 300 models (I had several 250" - 360" boom
length 300 ohm antennas for comparison). This was corroborated by
antenna testers nice enough to take these antennas, install them and
report back on their experiences.

> The second question is what sort of 75 Ohm antennas Ed listened to?

My own, per the construction described above.

> This is interesting from the point of view of what features they
may have had in common, besides 75 Ohms, and which features they
didn't share.

The APS-14 was a "live boom" model, so the 1" square booms the driven
elements were fastened to were "live". The APS-13 uses the standard
thin aluminum wire for feeding the driven elements. The elements and
booms were identical in manufacture. The '14 used a W2DU bead balun
for direct connection of 75 ohm coax to the live booms, the '13 uses
a standard balun transformer.
==========================
hth,

doug s.

Regardless of what model antenna you get, don't forget a rotator. Then the issue of adjacent channel interference and selectivity should be moot.
hi dan,

while this is certainly true for most situations, imo, i still *do* believe that there *are* some situations where the better signal pattern of an aps antenna *will* be a worthwhile investment over something like the winegard. if you have an adjacent channel that is much stronger than the channel you are trying to receive, & its broadcast antenna is not too far off line from the broadcast antenna yure trying to receive, any additional help rejecting the side signals will likely be of benefit.

regards,

doug s.

if you have an adjacent channel that is much stronger than the channel you are trying to receive, & its broadcast antenna is not too far off line from the broadcast antenna yure trying to receive, any additional help rejecting the side signals will likely be of benefit.
I have gone to each of my tuners in service today to check and I do have this problem actually with the one station I would like to get the best out of. Maybe the APS 9 would be better for my application?

Carl

I have gone to each of my tuners in service today to check and I do have this problem actually with the one station I would like to get the best out of. Maybe the APS 9 would be better for my application?

Carl
with this one station, what does it sound like now, w/your indoor antenna? if you don't hear any interference from the other station now, it's likely that you will be fine w/the winegard.

actually, you may wanna consider picking up a cheap ($25) radio shack antenna - it may possibly be all you need. in any event, you could return it, if you decide you need/want something better. and, it would likely give you an idea of whether the aps antenna is needed over the winegard...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-2163
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/15/15-2163.jpg

doug s.

I had a work injury that damaged the joints in my feet and ankles. I would be
paying somebody to do this, most likely in the neighborhood of 150.-200. with the cost of living here. I want to do this now as at this time a roof work will be done and mounting the antenna's cost will be neglible. So in my stuation I am better off to spend in error on the higher side if need be.

Carl

I had a work injury that damaged the joints in my feet and ankles. I would be
paying somebody to do this, most likely in the neighborhood of 150.-200. with the cost of living here. I want to do this now as at this time a roof work will be done and mounting the antenna's cost will be neglible. So in my stuation I am better off to spend in error on the higher side if need be.

Carl
carl, you may wanna consider getting the rat-shack antenna & a run of coax, & yust take the thing upstairs/to the highest point inside the house, (attic?), to see what it does. if it picks up your hardest-to-get station when properly oriented, then ya know the winegard will certainly be good enuff on the roof. then, ya can return the rat-shack, or go really cheap, & mount *it* on the roof.

if none of this is possible, since yure gonna be spending ~$200 on the install, if money isn't a big problem for ya, the total $350 cost of installing an aps-9 vs ~$275 for installing a winegard hd6065, may not be such a big deal.

it's your call! ;)

doug s.

The reason I wish to do this now is that roofers will be there anyway and
could mount the tripod, rotor and mast at little or no cost. I am thinking to just go ahead get the APS 9 as it could well benefit my situation but certainly not the APS 13 which could well be a good thing if I lived in the central valley.
Thanks for your input Doug. :)

Carl

Here (http://www.audiokarma.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2485&size=big&password=79841ecd89e4063f281fb868befcd82f&sort=1&cat=2) it is. :cool:


Carl

How does it perform?

I'm looking forward to your listening impressions.

It could be a few weeks or a little more until the rooms it's wired to are finished. :sigh:

Carl

That didn't take long. Looks good, though.

Murray