Open letter to AudioKarma

[MikE]

Earlier today I read, responded to a post by webmaster Tim regarding certain "attitudes" on AK. I replied that I had no prior knowledge of such, that I thought (as I have often mentioned) that AK, and then AU, had some of the friendlest people around. THEN I ran across the Thatch_Ear thread in question. Frankly I was disappointed. Looking just at his initial reply I see little, if anything at all that should have accounted for some of the replies received.

Sure some of you may think I'm only running to the defence of a fellow SET, tube-o-phile and recent contributor I have chatted with on the forum I moderate; Tubes. Some of you know me beyond my time on this forum and AU. I would like to think that I have a better reputation than to simple stick up for one of my kind, right or wrong. I personally like this Thatcher guy, but if he said something off color I'd call him on it.

While I can absolutely understand how vintage regulars may have taken offense to his comments I really can't justify some of those replies. He was stating HIS OPINION, nothing more. Just as we all have the freedom to do. He said take a vintage design, much like my amp, and modernize it with advanced logic and better parts and you will have a better product, if done right. Of course, this is not universal in application, just look at NOS tubes and how much better they are than 90% of current production valves.

You may not agree with everything he said but we must allow him a platform which to express his opinions and observations as long as he does so with civility. As much as he may have implied (in his initial post) that vintage is sub-par I felt he did so in a civil manner. Hey, I hear you guys crack on cables, and (now) SET but so what? I know what I hear everyday in my room and if others wish to either believe that is imagined or simply not their cup of tea, fine by me - to each his own. You won't catch me cracking on 70's receivers or lamp cord. I think to ask him to scurry back to AA is kind of close-minded. I have comfortably contributed on a number of forums in which I know I was not welcome (initially) or that I seemingly had little in common with the readership.

Personally I find much agreement with his commentary, based on my personal observations and those I have corresponded; SET, lowered noise-floor, superior design and better parts are real not imagined benefits. No, I'm not saying SET or tubes are for everybody I'm only relaying my experience as honestly as possible. My goal is to share and learn from others and they from me, or at the very least to provide some kinship in our seperate pursuits. I love the enthusiasm among the vintage group, and I share your passion and pride, if only with dissimilar devices. Don't ever lose that, I just think this one (1) thread was abit TOO reminescent of every other audio forum I know. We can do better than that.

MikE

[Drybasement]

I agree Mike. I personally did not see anything wrong with what he was saying. Just another guy loving his gear. It was his opinion and I respect that.

< puts on flame retardant suit>

We need to welcome new readership to these forums. Not chase them away.

Take care.

[ckelly]

MikE

I agree with you 100% on your statements. A discussion board is about DIFFERENT points of view, and sharing those differences. If we all thought the same way, this place can become a pretty dull place.

Please, let's not turn this place into a Hornets Nest

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Swarm.jpg

Chris

[Lefty]

Yea, I think there was no real hurt, no real foul here.

The vintage gang tends to be a pretty like minded crowd and to have strong subjective opinions posted that counter some near religious values will tend to bring out equally strong counter opinions, that is only to be expected. This is more common on other boards then this one so statements here may seem over reactive but I don't think there was really any anger or harm meant. Aurguing, bragging, teasing, rasing all should be allowed and tolerated. Diversity of opinion is useful and fun and should not be discourged in anyway.

Just because I don't buy into the mystic of magic cables, SET and other vacuum tube religions doesn't mean I mind others sharing their opinions on the subjects...... :cool:

Heck we even tolerate Thor's ranting around here. Maybe Thor will mellow out now that he has a job and pays taxes. ;)

[Kamakiri]

What can I say that hasn't already been eloquently said. Thanks everyone.

[THOR]

"You won't catch me cracking on 70's receivers or lamp cord."

Well I felt originally that Thatch had and others thought he did too and we cracked back a little, then he explained more and we explained more and we all made up and everything was smoothed over. I don't think it was as bad as everyone is making it out to be. :dunno:

[MikE]

I believe the thrust of my post was that I was more than a little surprized by that type of exchange on AK. As I stated that I didn't feel Thatcher's post was over the top, in the light of online forums nor were the responses. I see where many of the regulars are coming from and if I didn't approve I wouldn't be here. I just hope that was an isolated difference of opinion (not that we all must agree) and that we can be more tolorant of our differences in the future. From what I make of him and the collective I do not believe these type of arguments will continue with the parties involved. I was more considering possible repercussions in future threads. I fully understand this is a Vintage Forum, and that cables and exotics are not so much unwelcome just not embraced. I'm not trying to shove my beliefs or preferences on anyone, instead I only want a forum to share my thoughts, dreams and observations.

MikE

[THOR]

Like any family we have a few spats here and there, it happened a couple of times on AU even but was quickly smoothed over ;)

[Walt]

Well I've been away for the last week as you know, and it's hard to get a take on exactly what transpired as the thread has subsequently been heavily edited to take out some of the poison that was obviously exchanged between Tom/Pete/Grump/Thor vs Thatch, the new guy.

I have one comment to make, and this is primarily directed at the moderators here, of which I am one.

SET AN EXAMPLE.

Sure, as moderators we are entitled to our opinions (heck they aren't chopped off when we "ascend" to moderation), but you can't go around getting involved in any one on one assaults publically.

If a post is way out of line (for a very narrow set of reasons, not just because it is contrary to your line) delete it. If the thread gets out of control, close it down and move on. Set the tone for the forum, don't lower it.

As a personal observation, I think one or two of you guys need to back off on this "bunker vintage" mentality that has slowly developed as well. It's distasteful, there is more than enough room at AK for totally non-vintage topics and when someone from one of the other forums strays into vintage and perhaps makes a remark that you personally disagree with, stop, count to 10, and wait ...

There is no "one" opinion on vintage, or anything else for that matter. Just a whole lot of guys with similiar interests, but don't presume to speak for the crowd, or anyone else in particular.

I think the comaraderie around here is great, it's one of the features of a smaller site, but don't let the ugly side of the "mob" mentality come to the fore.

TODAY'S STRANGERS ARE TOMORROW'S FRIENDS ...

Trite, I know, but nevertheless true ... :)

In this light I am happy to see new people like Angela and Thatch ... the more the merrier.

[Thatch_Ear]

This is the 1st time I have ventured into this forum and I would like to say on Angela's part that we are touched. (That was a joke, I am touched) As far as participating in forums I think that if you tell the truth as you see it, don't go by hearsay, and don't make fun of Thor like I have been, then everything will work out.
I do have a bit to offer as that my guru is one of the top guys in the unknown world of true High Fidelity. His Timber Wolf likes me too, so I can go see him. We have an unspoken agreement about things. I can test my tubes anytime. I can use his time to help me with schematics, cabinet design etc at my own peril. My hope is to be in on his designs at the ground floor and see them through to production. His habits as far as testing, soldering and designing are second to none. With him I have worked my way through tube friendly vintage drivers and am ready to tackle the new in designs for SET users. For those that do not care for tubes it is hard to create an example that is close because I have learned how to make amps as well as speakers. All this unspoken as far as his time for money,etc. We work on the barter system and as far as goods go I am in the lead. As far as knowledge goes I am following from far behind. Audiophiles without money are non existant without a Guru. Audiophiles with a Guru can be players without a large bank roll. I am one lucky SOB!

[Kamakiri]

The one option that I haven't explored here is that this software allows for the category "Super Moderator", which basically means that one person can moderate the whole board along with the forum mods......this way if you're around this site a lot, you can basically assist those who can't be on here all the time (like me lately ;) ). It can be tough to be here all the time because we're all on different time zones and most of us have to go to work during the day :(

Would that help?

[gonefishin]

Hi Tim...and all :)


I really don't see a need for a super moderator. As I see it anyway. Tho this site is still new...I look at the moderators as more of a host to each forum. I really think for the most part threads can be controlled thru discussion...if some "guidance" is needed in any particular thread, by you or the moderator, so be it...but I really think most discussions are really no big deal. This may change over time...and certainly does not apply to flat out trolls.


my view on the KarmaWorld ;)

[MikE]

While I haven't given it much thought I don't see the need for a "Super Moderator" either. The reason as I stated earlier, was that at this time "I do not see much need for moderation". Since that statement there have been a few questionable posts, but that is to be expected even IF it is untypical for the forum in question. There may be a need, that is a given.

I like your accessment of Mods "hosting" their Forum. Thats excellant. I think some people feel the title brings some power or significance. Power is relative and respect is earned by our actions, not our titles, or should be. I also like the idea of policing your own. Meaning EVERYONE is responsible for the quality of the site, and while we are not in control of other's posts we can set an example with our contributions and when appropreiate comment on one another. I believe this is happening now. Seeing that this is our forum we - like most forums - would like to maintain a given standard.

I believe I can speak for the collective in that most everyone would like to cultivate an environment of mutual respect while keeping the FUN LEVEL high. I believe this is also happening. Maybe a SuperMOD is one possiblity, as for myself I have no desire to monitor the entire forum. So tell me, what do you think of the mods over at AA? And is that an asset or just sufficating the place? And what lessons - if any - should this forum draw from that example?

MikE

[grumpy]

Geezz

Honestly I think we should just let it go already....Would there have even been a need for this discussion if I didnt fly off the handle..I doubt it. Even when Don and I got into it over at AU it was over and let go of complety in a matter of days. If you guys want me to give up my Moderatorship then that works for me.

Dave

[Kamakiri]

Dave, nobody was talking about you giving up a mod status. Although I do agree that it's getting much more press than it deserves after time has passed.

Topic happily closed :D

[ckelly]

I agree, I think this should be closed.

Chris