So I'm thinking of upgrading carts and have been looking at various MC designs, as well as a tube phono preamp since my Mac C-39 does not have a MC phono input. Question: if the tube preamp "changes" the sound from the cartridge to give you the typical "tube sound", then does it really matter how much I spend for the cartridge (assuming it's a fine cartridge to begin with)? If I buy a Grado MC at $100.00, will the sound be inferior to buying a Grado at $500.00 and still shoot it thru a tube preamp? I would think that because you are altering the sound you could get away with a less expensive cartridge and still have that "tube sound" that the phono preamp will give you. Am I right? I can see how a more expensive cart will sound better straight thru your preamp than a lesser cart because you will be hearing the cart itself. But place a tube preamp in between and now you are hearing the preamp.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm........... any thoughts?

When did Grado start making a $100 MC cartridge? Or one for $500, for that matter? Believe that they are all 'moving iron' rather than MC (or MM). I liked my Sonata, but the Kontrapunkt b is definitely superior to my ears.

You always hear the preamp. Doesn't matter if it is ss or tube. Its there.....and you hear it. Built-in or stand alone. Even the quietest ones for MC cartridges only have about 80db s/n. And the best tube ones will have more like 65, or so. Inexpensive ss phono stages are 'probably' going to have less signature than inexpensive tube phono stages simply due to economics. Takes quite a bit more to build a tube piece than a ss piece. More in the way of transformers, tube sockets, etc. My 'estimation' is that it will take about a ratio of 2-to-1 in dollars to get the same level of 'quality' sound from a tube phono stage as from a ss one. This, as many 'rules of thumb' will fall apart at some point, but is not too bad a guide.

The two epiphanys I've had in 40+ years of this crazy hobby have been 1.) the improvement in sound a great phono stage can make (Threshold FET 10pc) in comparison to a decent phono stage, and, 2.) the improvement in sound of a good MC compared to a good MM cartridge with a great phono stage. My rule is $2 on the phono stage for every $1 on a cartridge.

Think someone here sells a relatively inexpensive tube phono stage that is reasonably well thought of. But, I don't recall if it is capable of the gain needed for a standard output MC cartridge. You might look over at the Tube forum. Or perhaps someone here will recall. Wasn't one of them raffled off earlier this year?

Have you thought about going with a good high output moving coil (HOMC)?
Then you can still use the phono section of your current pre. I'm doing something similar - have an MX-110 preamp - and am using a HOMC through the MM phono section. I'm using a Benz Micro Silver but there are many other cartridges. Mine was recommended by a shop (that had a selection) as a good value, good sounding cartridge. They had one set up on their VPI Scout so I thought they must like it pretty well. I think it sounds good.

There's no easy answer here. While what Yamaha B-2 says is true that you're going to hear the preamp no matter what, it's also true that you're going to hear the cartridge no matter what kind of preamp you run it through. If you start with a cartridge that lacks clarity and detail no preamp is going to make up for that and add detail back in. Most MC cartridges have a rising high end and tend to be a little bright so running them through a tube amp that's a little warm will help to smooth things out a bit. What you need to try and shoot for is a good synergy between the two where the strengths and weaknesses of the cartridge and preamp balance each other out to a certain extent. Everything starts with the stylus in the groove so you want the best cartridge you can manage to get the most information out of that groove, while keeping in mind that cartridges are basically expendable and need to be replaced regularly while you will likely keep a preamp for a long time. It's all a big balancing act and trying to find that elusive balance is one of the things that keeps vinyl interesting.

I find myself in agreement with the others: Both make a difference, and both will be heard. A good tube preamp will not make a $100 cartridge sound like a $500 cartrige, but it can make the sound of the $100 cartridge better. But it can ALSO make the sound of the $500 cartridge better. I know that this is diffcult to comprehend until you have expereinced this for yourself. But trust me; it is true!

I agree with the posts above -- while components down the line from the source can change the frequency balance etc, and can mess up the signal, they can't make up for what's not there, or is there in garbled (messsed up phase or time relations etc) form. Garbage in, garbage out. So if you are aiming for the best, or even simply good, you have to start with something satisfactory to you.
But I have my doubts about B-2s comments about tubes and solid state. I believe its true that low noise is easier with transistors than tubes, but aren't tube circuits simpler than solid state? The parts may be more expensive, but there are fewer of them, so it depends on implementation whether one is more expensive than the other.

But I have my doubts about B-2s comments about tubes and solid state.You may disagree, but Michael Fremer does not. Here is a direct quote from an e-mail I received from him this morning...."yes, solid state phono pre's are generally quieter than tubed ones, but
I've heard some that break the rules. It is inexcusable for a
manufacturer of either to not list noise specs as well as overload
specs." M. Fremer

Obviously, as I stated, there are some tube units that are very quiet and some SS that are noisier. But, tubes themselves are considerably noisier than are SS devices. So one starts with that basic limitation with tube gear.

And, while SS gear may be a bit more complex, most of the components used/needed are not in the signal path and don't have to be of the same 'audiophile' quality as those that are.

OK, I'm not going to say anything overly smart here, as I'm quite a newb and not an expert, but after I switched to tube phono pre and a tube integrated my system is so much more revealing now that I hear things that were unheard before.
That unfortunately includes more surface noise and some records I thought were perfect are not so perfect anymore. So trying to get the best cart/stylus appears quite necessary - first to take advantage of the new capabilities, secondly to hopefully alleviate the imperfections of the medium...

Re: cartridge - In my case I had to try different carts just to get the balance I wanted (amount of bass or treble mostly) as my amp has no tone controls and compensating for cartridge's defficiencies by applying equalization was not possible anymore.
Similiarly, "rolling" tubes in my phono pre would yield some intersting results: the sound would become "heavier" or "darker", more bassy or brighter depending on the tubes I tried.
Apparently it has to do with the effect and the interaction between the grid voltage and the RIAA circuit behavior (or maybe I'm talking out of my ass here...). In either case, I don't think you can do this with a SS phono stage...

So I gues what I'm saying is both the cart and the pre can have a great effect on the end result, but I guess you alrady know this.

I know that the better the cart the better the sound (all things being equal). Same with a tube phono stage. Why do I want a tube phono stage? Well, my Mac C-39 has no provisions for a MC input, only MM. I have a Denon DL-160 high output MC cart right now and totally love the sound. I am *almost* convinced that dollar for dollar a MC sounds better than it's equivelent MM brother. Now I want to upgrade my DL-160 MC to a better cart, maybe a Benz, or a Shelter (I'm not at all sure yet), but I know I will want a MC cart, and in the chance that a high output version is not available of the cart I decide to choose then I would need a phono pre also. So if I'm ging to spend bucks on a phono pre, why not go a bit farther and get a tubed phono pre? I've heard many stories about how sweet a tubed phono pre can sound (though I'll take it with a grain of salt since I've never heard one). Now, I know that there will be some trade-offs, like higher noise, etc. But if the overall sound of a tubed phono with a MC cart is "more lifelike and natural" then it would be a route I would want to consider. But I got to thinking that if a tubed phono stage changes the sound of the cart, then how important is the cart? I understand the garbage in, garbage out rule. All this can, of course, change if I find a nice MC cart that is high output. What I want is opinions (like I've been getting) from people who have tubed phono stages and MC carts.

But, tubes themselves are considerably noisier than are SS devices.
I'm not sure that's true. While there's definitely thermionic noise associated with tubes, there's plenty of shot noise associated with SS junctions -- when I think of a hissy amplifier, I think of solid state.

I think the noise that one associates with tube phono preamp stages reflects the high unit gain of each triode in the path. I suspect (though I am not sure) that "good" SS phono premps probably cascade a bunch of low-gain sections to minimize that sort of noise.

I would agree that S/N (vs. a reasonable input standard voltage) and overload oughta be quoted if a manufacturer is going to proffer specifications. That said, I'd rather have a good sounding phono preamp, even with some hiss, or even microphonics or hum, than a mediocre-sounding but 'jet black' one.

B-2: my point was that components, in the signal path or not, cost money, so a tube unit that is simpler may be cheaper than a ss unit with more complexity. If you rule out components not in the signal path, I guess you are right, but its an odd definition of cost.

jimmy n, if you like yer present mm fono stage, & are wanting a lo-output coil why not yust inwest in a decent step-up transformer?

doug s.

jimmy n, if you like yer present mm fono stage, & are wanting a lo-output coil why not yust inwest in a decent step-up transformer?

doug s.
Actually that's what I had in mind. Isin't a step up transformer called a phono preamp? Aren't there tubed and SS versions?

Nope. Step up transformer is passive. No tubes. No transistors. Like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-AU-310-Step-up-transformer_W0QQitemZ5820061250QQcategoryZ48648QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Check out the rest of them on eBay and then go to www.audiogon.com and check out there, as well. This is definitely something I recommend that you purchase used. As it has no moving parts other than a couple of switches (maybe - some do, some don't) there is nothing to go bad.

Actually that's what I had in mind. Isin't a step up transformer called a phono preamp? Aren't there tubed and SS versions?
step up transformers are called pre-preamps. :D seriously! some are passive, some are not. here's a link to an active tubed unit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5820674260
http://www.ys-audio.com/images/solo1.jpg

that guy is a respected designer & ebay seller. i do not have 1st-hand experience w/any of his gear, but everything i have read about it indicates good stuff for the money.

other stuff on ebay, found by searching for phono step up transformer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5820532428
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5821550250
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5820228669
(note this is for fono stage *and* pre-preamp, but you can buy the pre-pre separately)

the one i think looks like a decent deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5820699203
http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nwc4396/haufemcsu1.jpg
http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nwc4396/haufemcsu2.jpg http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nwc4396/haufemcsu3.jpg

one more:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5820058332
http://i2.ebayimg.com/04/i/05/36/dd/fa_1.JPG

good luck,

doug s.

I use a Benz Micro Glider M2 with a Hybrid Audio Research PH3. The PH3 uses JFETs and 6922/6DJ8s. I installed NOS Bugle Boys and this unit sings. Karen Carpenter sounds glorious. Plenty of detail, nice warm sound. Noise level is very low. I can hear tape hiss from analog mastered records, always a good sign!

Have you tried turning the volume, slowly, all the way up without an LP on and the phono selected? That is the test for how quiet your rig is. You may be surprised. Back in my McIntosh days I replaced two C-38 preamps because the phono stage was so noisy. This was with the V15VxMR and then the Grado Sonata. And the first one had a bad relay hum. Audio Classics was good enough to take them back and sell me a Bryston 25 with phono stage. Cured the problem immediately. The Bryston 25 with the McIntosh MC-500 was one great sounding rig.

Yamaha, can you elaborate on you C-39 experience?

Oops...my bad. Its was a C-38 (two of them), not a C-39. Typo on my part. But, I will guess that the phono stage is the same. Have you tried turning your volume up while 'phono' is selected with no LP playing? Do you hear white noise in front of your speakers? I did. Too much of it. Then do the same when you select some other source (CD, Aux, etc.) and see what you hear with no music running. Some folks think that this white noise is acceptable and is covered up by the music. But, I prefer to not have it. Or at least at a very low level. And, I felt the C-38 had too much so switched to the Bryston BP-25 preamp with built-in phono stage. Like the Threshold FET 10pc through one of the high-level inputs, it had essentially no white noise.

If you opt for a step-up transformer (passive type) you will run it through your phono input, which is the noisiest stage in your preamp. If you get an active external phono stage you will run it through one of your high-level inputs, which are quite a bit quieter than the phono stage, which has to provide not only RIAA equalization, but a great deal of gain. That is why MM are considerably quieter than MC (again, a generalization - dollars help equalize this difference). The gain requirement is much lower for an MM. Sorry about the C-38/39 error.

Hmmmmm....I'm beginning to understand all this MC/MM nonsense. I do believe the C-38 is the same thing as the C-39 minus the video path, so no typo really. I do hear noise on my phono input, though not anything louder than I've ever heard coming from a phono input, but it's true another input is dead quiet. It seems like it would be too big of an investment to get a high quality MC cart AND a phono stage (even a transformer) compared to a nice MM cart. I've seen some tube phono stages and they sell for around the same price as my C-39 did new!!! No way!! It might be best to just stick with a good MM cart.

Jimmy

Well.......I hate to see you short-change your vinyl listening. Go here: http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?preaphon and check out all the phono preamps that are available used on the 'high-end' market. And, you can get a new MC like the Sumiko Blackbird, Benz Glider or the Ortofon Kontrapunkt b (which I use) for under $700 by doing some shopping around. Even some of the big names negotiate on prices if you call them. So, for $1500, give or take, you can end up with a terrific vinyl playback system (assuming you have a decent TT/TA system all ready). But, going with an excellent MM cartridge is good. Just not as good.

jimmy, do not let b-2 scare ya! :D i am also partial to the ortofons - i happen to use a mc25-fl - a tiny step down from the kontrapunkt b in the ortofon hierarchy. (i actually bought a lyra clavis a while back, completely rebuilt by symphonic line w/a vdh stylus, for only ~$400 but the 'fon is so nice i have yet to install the lyra!)

judicial shopping will see you w/a nice outboard mc fono stage *and* a lo-output mc for <$1k, imo. mebbe even as low as $600-$700. of course, if you do not have a noise issue (i am not familiar w/your preamp, so i cannot judge), you may be able to do it for even less, w/a step-up & your present fono stage in your preamp.

doug s.