View Full Version : Are big Yamaha CR series receivers worth much?


Wardsweb
07-13-2002, 08:46 AM
I've noticed people around here love Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood and some others, but the Yamaha's don't seem to be as near and dear to your hearts. I looked on Ebay and there have been a 2040, 1040 and a 1020 that didn't get a single bid. The 1040 has been relisted at $10 cheaper :eek: :D

I really like the "40" series having had a couple different models over the years and still do. I'm interested in the 1040 on Ebay, but I'am wondering if there is something I'm missing here.

How about it guys & gals? Shain? Grumpy?

bully
07-13-2002, 10:37 AM
I dunno, Wardsweb, I LIKE Yamaha gear. I had a 1040 I really liked, so I gave it to my bro & sis-in-law (so I'd have some good gear to listen to when I visit!).
The CR-3020 is a piece I would love to have someday. I do have the R-2000 receiver, an M-80 & M-70 amps, two T-80 tuners and two C-80 preamps. My HT uses all Yamaha speakers (two pair of NS-A838 for center and main, the NS-A638 for surround).
I think they are exceptional gear.
The M-80 especially, operates in pure Class A up to 40 wpc!

I am a big fan of Yamaha, and would recommend one to anyone, especially those who are VERY picky about their sound.

Pete

Thatch_Ear
07-13-2002, 11:32 AM
I have a friend that I hooked up a HT reciever for that had all his Yamaha speakers but had sold his old reciever in a garage sale. He was upset because he no longer had his reciever, and I was upset because I missed the garage sale! He ended up getting another pair of Yamaha speakers and they are now his center channel. It does sound good!

Lefty
07-13-2002, 12:28 PM
I feel the TOTL Yamaha CR, CA, CT and other componets belong right there with the other TOTL stuff from the era. I think that Yamaha just didn't sell in the volumn that Pioneer, Marantz, Sansui, etc did and that is why we see fewer listed and bid on.

The CA-2010 integrated amp I own is a real jewel of quality design and construction. It's the only one I've come across that has sealed pots in the volumn/balance controls, probably never requiring cleaning.

I had picked up a thrift store CR-1040 with a dead channel real cheap, but was unable to restore it because I was unable to find the special integrated circuit output module used by this model. The CA-2010 uses TO-3 transistors so I think that is a plus for the larger models in Yamaha's CR lineup.

Anyway the vintage Yamaha lineup is good stuff. Styling in much different from others but otherwise it is very competitive in every way with the best of the SS vintage era.

moondog
07-13-2002, 12:50 PM
I love the mid-late 70's Yamaha equipment. I bought a a CA-810 amp in 1977. Unfortunately... It needs some repairs. I can tell you they are very clean sounding (0.005 distortion) & built well also.

I hope someday to maybe get mine fixed, although I could probably buy a replacement for less money on ebay.

So many amps... So little money... :(

mOOn

glenburro
06-02-2003, 08:23 PM
I don't know about the receivers, but I can testify to the great build and sound of some Yamaha amps. My 1977 A-1's and CA-2010s (I have two of each in case there's a nuclear war and I have to hide somewhere for a long time) sound so much better than the Bryston B-60 and Classe amps I bought that I finally sold the newer amps wondering how I let myself be convinced they must be better. I think my Yamaha amps are vastly preferable to amps people are spending lots of money on today.

Not many people seem to know or appreciate how good the A-1s really are. For anyone who gets or has an A-1 I think it is important to know that there are a large number of connections inside the amp that are wire wound onto posts, not soldered. In my experience Deoxit and ProGold treatment of all the internal connections was necessary to get them working in optimal fashion.

dgwojo
06-02-2003, 08:47 PM
I had the 1020, it was excellent, pics of it are posted in this thread; http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6829

boostcrazy
06-02-2003, 09:35 PM
love my cr-1020 best stereo reciever i have owned.

buddha

EchoWars
06-03-2003, 12:08 AM
The only problem I ever had with Yamaha was the '2001 Space Oddessy' designed front panels. I always preferred a more contemporary design. Oh, and maybe price. Back in the heyday, the Yamaha's were only a little bit more expensive than the run-of-the-mill Pioneer, Kenwood's, et. al., when comparing MSRP, but no one was discounting the Yammies even close to the degree that the other gear was being discounted, making the Yammies mucho expensive for the average Joe.

...that all changed in the late 70's / very early 80's, and Yamaha went full-bore into mass market like nobody's business, apparently trying to make up for lost time or lost market. Discount city.

oldmarantz
06-03-2003, 03:57 AM
I have a CA1010 and a CR200 I think this brand is almost as good as Pioneer or Marantz.the look is just ...different!
Dom.

djronc
06-03-2003, 07:20 AM
i have the cr-840, i find it to be a very good sounding receiver. i also find it to be very attractive.

Shain
06-03-2003, 08:19 AM
I've had a few of the Yamaha's . Many seemed to have problems, but may have just been the ones I had.

They just don't seem to "draw the interest" that Marantz, Pioneer, etc have experienced.

Haven't tried the "biggie" receives, had a 1040 as I recall

I'm not wild about the look, .........but to each his own.

I used to have a Yamaha 250 moto cross bike, and it was a piece of crap, maybe that's why I never liked their stereo stuff ;) :p: :D

bully
06-03-2003, 08:45 AM
Anecdotally, I think they were similar to the Tandberg. Similar 'crowd' purchased them. That is to say, not the younger, college-age crowd that seems to drive the market.
Like Tandberg, the Yamaha evinced a sophistication and refinement, not only to their appearance, but also in their sound.
Perhaps more for jazz and classical, very detailed music.
My big R-2000, 150 wpc, sounded great, but like Yamaha receivers in general (to my experience and knowledge) also seems a bit delicate, and in fact has resorted to going into protection mode. Gotta get it fixed!

Shain
06-03-2003, 10:37 AM
I've had maybe 10 of the 1970's Yamaha receivers and as I recall 6 needed serious or semi serious work. (not just lamps & cleaning of controls)

Not sure of the numbers now, but CR 440, 640, 840, is there a 320?, maybe it was a 420, and 1020, Had a couple of duplicates.

As I recall the insides weren't real "beefy", but that may have been smaller models.

The Kenwoods I've had, for example, have been much better in terms of reliability, and not broken.

BlackSwamp
06-03-2003, 11:04 AM
I did some searching on my CR-2040 when I decided to bring it up to snuff. (it's still being serviced)

Interestingly, a shortwave newsgroup had a number of postings about that unit (and those era yamaha's in general) as it relates to extremly quality reception. As I rarely listen to the radio and have little interest in shortwave, I didn't pay it much attention but thought it was worth mentioning.

mhardy6647
06-04-2003, 08:58 AM
This has been an interesting thread. I'll remind you of my bias up front: I am a big fan of the latter-1970's Yamaha hardware in terms of esthetics and sound quality, over and above all other massmarket vendors of the day. The reliability issues in this thread seem weighted towards the later CR- x40 series, which certainy didn't have the physical quality of the preceding CR-x00 and CR-x20 series, and may well have skimped on parts quality as well. For whatever reason, the old Yamaha receivers are relatively inexpensive. I'd encourage any of you collectors to take a chance on a CR-620 or CR-820 and report back what you think.

My CA-610II amp has served me well since 1978, with one minor repair ca. 1990. I can't complain!

boostcrazy
06-04-2003, 02:45 PM
My cr-1020 has all aluminum knobs and switches find that on a reciever today under 2k. the build quality and sound is what gives me a woody

buddha

glenburro
06-04-2003, 03:26 PM
Just a comment about Yamaha reliability issues. The techs out there tell me that many amplifier components, such as electrolytic caps, can never be expected to last 20 or 30 years, although they often do. If such components fail, it is certainly not an indicator of poor quality in Yamaha products, but rather a fact of life in general.

My Yamaha pieces were TOTL, and have some better grade parts than the other models of the same year. For example the CA-2010 uses only the best quality ALPS switches and pots throughout. I doubt that Pioneer, Sansui, etc. ever used better parts than my Yamahas. What I love aside from the parts quality is what appears to me to be an extremely high standard of build quality. My Yamaha's are built and connected inside like a combination of a bullet proof tank and a swiss watch.

Anyone can tell I'm a huge Yamaha fan, but I really think in the TOTL models Yamaha quality was right up there with anything. The icing on the cake; Yamahas sound the best!!! (Like I said, I'm a bit of a fan.):D

Lefty
06-04-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by glenburro
Just a comment about Yamaha reliability issues. The techs out there tell me that many amplifier components, such as electrolytic caps, can never be expected to last 20 or 30 years, although they often do. If such components fail, it is certainly not an indicator of poor quality in Yamaha products, but rather a fact of life in general.

My Yamaha pieces were TOTL, and have some better grade parts than the other models of the same year. For example the CA-2010 uses only the best quality ALPS switches and pots throughout. I doubt that Pioneer, Sansui, etc. ever used better parts than my Yamahas. What I love aside from the parts quality is what appears to me to be an extremely high standard of build quality. My Yamaha's are built and connected inside like a combination of a bullet proof tank and a swiss watch.

Anyone can tell I'm a huge Yamaha fan, but I really think in the TOTL models Yamaha quality was right up there with anything. The icing on the cake; Yamahas sound the best!!! (Like I said, I'm a bit of a fan.):D

Yea, I wish I had a camera to take a nudie shoot of the inside of my CA-2010 amp. Several of the control knobs have these articulated turnbuckel shafts that run to the actual switches near the rear of the amp. That way electrical signal paths are shorter instead of having to run all the line level stuff all the way from the rear to the front panel and back again. Yamaha build quality is a step up from most of the other Japanese brands of the time that I've seen. Nothing against the other brands, I own plenty, but Yamaha went the extra mile on some of their stuff, esp the CA-2010...

Lefty

JonTee
06-05-2003, 08:07 AM
I scored one off ebay last year for $125, and it is built extremely well. No problems, just a good cleaning. The transformer is about the size of my Hop-along Cassidy lunchbox and two 22,000uF capacitors the size of coke cans.

I currently am using it in my home theater system for the front two channels. My wife commented (not knowing I had made a change) that the music coming from the HT system sounded especially good that night after I had made the switch. The switchable class-A mode is especially sweet.

Jon

Lefty
06-05-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by JonTee
I scored one off ebay last year for $125, and it is built extremely well. No problems, just a good cleaning. The transformer is about the size of my Hop-along Cassidy lunchbox and two 22,000uF capacitors the size of coke cans.

I currently am using it in my home theater system for the front two channels. My wife commented (not knowing I had made a change) that the music coming from the HT system sounded especially good that night after I had made the switch. The switchable class-A mode is especially sweet.

Jon

You did indeed get a very good deal on that amp. $200-$300 would be a fair value in my opinion, depending on condition.

The only fault I have with this amp is the speaker wire connectors. While they work they are a real pain to make clamp securely onto a speaker wire. Few if any of the Japanese manufactures in that era did a good job on speaker connectors IMHO.

Looks like you used a larger gauge wire so maybe you didn't have as much problem. Anyway a conversion to 5-way banana jacks would be a cool upgrade.

Lefty

JonTee
06-05-2003, 09:06 AM
You are correct about the wire connections:mad:, they suck. The wires I had connected at that time were ended with soldered on pin connections. However, I did a lot of swearing when I had to take the banana connections off the my HT wires to use it there.

Jon:)

oldmarantz
06-05-2003, 11:36 AM
This CA2010 is like my CA1010 same inside...;)

merrylander
06-24-2003, 02:26 PM
Yamaha receivers are under appreciated, not under-rated. They are a delight to work on (unlike the more popular brand), well thought out and generally use top quality components. We are
using a CR-820 as our main with Polk Model7s, a CR-640 in the spare bedroom with KLH speakers.

In the shop are 3-CR-820s all restored and two have re-veneered cases. Then there are 3-CR-620s, two restored, one waiting. Two CR-1020s, I have to remove a board from one to scan it as the other is missing that board. A CR-2020 that is waiting to be restored along with a veneer job for the case, A CR-840 and CR-1040 also waiting to be restored. Do I sound like a Yamaha nut?

The CR-820 is on an FM turnstile in the garage attic, but the CR-640 pulls in everything in the area with a simple metal clip around the line cord - go figure.

A note on DC bias, every one I have ever worked on has adjustable DC bias and few have been out of spec. My own personal opinion and at 72 my hearing may have lost a bit, but the whole family room wall becomes the stage when that CR-820 is playing.

Rob

Andyman
06-24-2003, 03:53 PM
I had a CR-640 for a while, but sold it after I found my Marantzs. I remembered Yamahas as being highly rated "sleeper" models, maybe because of the motorcycle connection. Most Americans probably don't reaIize Yamaha was into instruments before motorcycles; the old logo is actually three tuning forks!
I'm not much of an EE/tech type, but from what I've read over the years, the x20 models are preferred over the x40s because of fewer ICs in the amplifier circuits. I would always take a hard look at any Yamaha I would find out there, especially the vintage 70s silver stuff. Turntables, tape decks, receivers amps, speakers all are worthy of consideration given any vintage Japanese brand. I've bought and sold examples of all of them and they all were seriously considered for keeping, especially tape decks, receivers and amps.
________
Daihatsu esse specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Daihatsu_Esse)

merrylander
06-25-2003, 07:52 AM
The deprecation of ICs has always puzzled me, after all they simply take the discrete components and mount them on "thick film". A search with any good engine will turn up groups devoted to building high fidelity amplifiers using ICs.

I got into this vintage game quite by accident, as a family historian I was looking for a microfiche reader and someone suggested eBay. Found the reader and noticed the electronics. Well I had always heard about the "warm" tz sound so I bid on a 2238 and won. Kept looking and bought several units in need of repair, among them the CR-820. I sold the 2238 and kept the Yamaha and never looked back. Now as far as the CR-n40 series goes IMHO they will stand up to anything out there.

Rob

Sandy G
06-25-2003, 01:02 PM
Guys- When my CA-2010 got zapped by lightning, I gave it to an EE buddy of mine to play with, figuring it was pretty much shot. He was very impressed w/it, said it was all hi-quality stuff inside, & was kinda set up like a tube amp. Got it back working, except for one transistor that apparently isn't made any more. The CT-1010 tuner wasn't in the same league,OK for city use but hopeless out here in the boondocks-just not sensitive enuff. I remember being told by a salesman back in '77 that Yamahas were made to "mil-spec" standards- probably just sales guy BS- but they WERE very well made, indeed. As for looks, I kinda always liked the understated & subtle look of them. Like an older Rolls-Royce, perhaps...<grin> -Sandy G.

Lefty
06-25-2003, 01:28 PM
Rob;

"The deprecation of ICs has always puzzled me, after all they simply take the discrete components and mount them on "thick film". A search with any good engine will turn up groups devoted to building high fidelity amplifiers using ICs."

I don't think any deprecation of power ICs are because of their performance but rather there scarcity and high price if avalible at all, at least that is my experiance and opinion. With TO-3 style Output transistors, one can usually come up with a sub that will work and is avalible.

Lefty

merrylander
06-25-2003, 01:31 PM
If it is an output transistor you might find an NTE replacement, if it was one of the smaller ones I may have one on the board of the CR-620 parts unit. Do you have a number?

Rob

BlackSwamp
06-25-2003, 01:33 PM
Just got my Cr-2040 back from the shop today. I haven't heard it with worthwhile speakers in a long time. I replaced my Pioneer SX-1280 with it and gave it a listen. Here are some initial first impressions:

It's rated at 120RMS vs 185 on the 1280 and it shows. The Pioneer smokes it in this regard. in this comparision rated watts do matter.

However, initial listening suggests the Yammie maintains spatial integrity, and instrument differentiation at higher volumes then the Pioneer.

The general sound is softer, I don't really know how to explain this. With LP's it's not neccessarily less fatiguing but it's warmer with less of an edge. With CD's it is less fatiguing. granted my player ain't great, but Cd's on the 1280 are not always an enjoyable experience. The initial CD listen on the 2040 simply felt more comfortable, more enjoyable. I wouldn't have expected these two units to color the sound in such different ways, but they defintely do.

Bass seems a little tighter at any volume on the 2040.

Attack & decay is more defined on the 1280.

Ideally, I'd have both and switch based on the selection. If my wife goes for it, I just might do that.

gonna go listen some more.

:)

merrylander
06-25-2003, 01:36 PM
To Lefty,

I used to get 40 series ICs from Yamaha at outrageous prices but have since found that AudioLab of Georgia sells the Sanyo STK series at quite reasonable prices. And I would bet that all the units that used ICs were re-badged Sanyo ICs. The nice thing about the 40 series is that all the ICs were electrically identical, just the input voltage and power output changed, so if you can't get the exact one go one step higher.

So there goes my restoration business now that the cat's out of the bag.

Rob

lasminit2
06-01-2005, 10:27 PM
Interesting Yamaha Perspective:
I was an audio salesguy in a college town store in the late Seventies to early Eighties. Chapel Hill, NC in the Jordan-Worthy-Perkins era, and those kids (well, they were then, and so was I) were among our customers. Yamaha was only available at the more high endish store down the street, and generally sold for full retail.Yamaha reps purportedly tried to place their products in the McIntosh stores. I hear it was that way throughout the country; Pioneer, Marantz, Technics and Sansui were all being sold at places like Best Products, Service Merchandise and Brendle's ...all pre-Walmart "discount department stores" and later Harvey's Warehouse and Circuit City. Anyway, it was all very good stuff, but Yamaha was considered the class act at the time, and it probably had more to do with marketing than anything else. But my ancient CA-1010 sure blows away the 2002 Onkyo receiver it replaced. Not even close.Oh, and old Onk stuff sounds great too!

Wornears
06-02-2005, 02:30 AM
I'm the original owner of a Yamaha CA-600 integrated amp, and the second owner of a CR-820 receiver, and my latest Yamaha is a thrift store A-1020 integrated amp from the 80s -- which I just cleaned up and operates perfectly. The only problem I've had with the CA/CR is lamps burning out. I clean their controls with DeOxit every couple of years just for grins.

In 1977, Yamaha wasn't discounted one bit and I paid something like $335+ (got the receipt around here somewhere) for the CA-600 (35 real wpc). It was definitely not a typical buy -- all my friends had Pioneer, Marantz, etc., as I did before buying the CA-600. I knew Yamaha from their guitars and pianos (incredible action on the latter) and always thought their electronics construction was aces (I was studying to be an EE at the time) so me and my friends were always rooting around in receivers and amps.

Their wpc channel are underrated, and to back up what Merrylander says about DC offset -- I went to adjust my CA-600's for the first time since I bought it a few months ago and it was still in spec -- even a bit below on one channel (L).

I always thought their faceplate layout was perfect -- look how contemporary they are even now. Pioneer et. al. always seemed to rely on gaudy lights to bring color to the fronts -- while Yamaha was form/function in aluminum. Yeah, I'm biased. Buy as much Yamaha gear as your wallet can stand. Just leave some for me.

Yamaha B-2
06-02-2005, 05:01 AM
If you like good vintage sound, then it is Yamaha (and Sony). EW just recapped a CA-2010 for me and I will be picking up in about a month. :banana: My brother has been a Luxman receiver person for years. I picked up a CR-2040 a couple of months ago and he borrowed and has now replaced his main Luxman receiver with it and wants to keep. Not just the TOTL gear from Yamaha, but all their gear in the CR-X20/CR-X40/CA-XX10 era were clearly a cut above the competition in both build and sound quality. The only drawback with the CA-2010 is that it is a bit under heatsinked IMHO. Toss a muffin fan on top and that's no longer a problem. But some might say I'm biased in my view on Yamaha gear.

BTW, fellow AKer dgwojo has the various light-bulbs for the meters and dials on our vintage Yamaha gear, as well as other makes.

merrylander
06-02-2005, 06:44 AM
This old house used to be a totally Yamaha house. The main system is stilll a CR-2020 with Polk Monitor 7B speakers. This CR-2020 replaced another CR-2020 only because I veneered it in Cherry and could not bear to part with it. Both have had the service bulletin mods and the previous one is available. Yamaha, beain a musical instrument company, opted for what they called 'Natural Sound' and what I call 'Transparent Sound', if it isn't in the input it won't be in the output. Build quality is solid, the Yammies are the only receivers I would consider shipping in their cases, most others will take damage simply because the screws that hold the cases in place are not up to the job, although the few Sansuis that have been through here seem as solid.

Lefty, if you still have that CR-1040 I can tell you what the Sanyo part number is.

Given a choice between a Pioneer SX-650 and a Yamaha CR-600, 620 or 640 I would take the Yamaha hands down. In fact, there is a nice CR-640 on the bench right now awaiting final adjustment before the owner sends for it.

The elusive CR-3020 is really built like an Abrams tank, the only one that has ever been through my shop damn near gave me a hernia picking it up. At least as bad as the B2 power amp sent here from Texas for service. Those units I have to unpack or pack in the front hall as getting them up the L shaped stairs boxed is impossible.

Rob

akahn
06-02-2005, 11:53 AM
What is "Class A"?

mhardy6647
06-02-2005, 12:02 PM
class A is an amplifer design topology wherein the output devices are biased "on" all the time. This is inefficient, as they're essentially always dissipating full power, but it eliminates the crossover distortion of a class B amp. The single-ended tube amps beloved of some of us :-) are typically Class A designs.

EDIT: This looks like a reasonable primer on classes of amplification:
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/ampclasses.html

or this one:
http://www.smeter.net/amplifiers/classes.php

akahn
06-02-2005, 02:10 PM
Can't say I come close to understanding that stuff, but thanks for the links.

pbda
06-02-2005, 04:31 PM
I feel that the TOTL classic Yamaha components are undervalued, compared to equivalent Marantz or Pioneer components (no flames please: I own gear from all three makers). Having said this, it does allow one to acquire these electronics relatively cheaply: over the past couple of months I've rounded up a CR-1000, CR-2040, CA-2010 and two CT-1010s (one for Canadian$25!).

Franz
06-02-2005, 05:06 PM
Hi Guys

I'm the guy with the CR-640 on Merrylander's bench, and I want to tell you all what a pleasure he is to deal with. But you knew that already......

I've owned (and still use) a wide variety of equipment, and I'm here to tell you that that Yammie 640 with a pair of KEF Chorale speakers makes some of the sweetest MUSIC you will ever hear.

Now, if you want to blast ZZ Top at "11" on the volume knob, I have an SAE Mark III CM and a pair of JBL Horizons that will stun and kill small mammals--BUT--the musicality of the Yamaha is tops. Especially when you consider the watts per price ratio. I bought that 640 new when I was in college, and used it straight through around til 1994-5. I moved cross-country 3 times, and always had the Yammie with me. I own and use a variety of stuff, including tube, SS, vintage and new, and if I were "stranded" on that proverbial island, I'd make sure that Yammie was with me.

I just recently got it back after about 10 years, after having "lent" it to a cousin who had just moved out on her own and didn't have two nickels to her name. Sadly, she almost killed it, and I found it under a pile of crap in her garage, coverd with detritus and wood shavings. It looked like it had gone up Sugarloaf with the Marines......She thought she had thrown it out, or given it away. She couldn't believe I wanted it back. Her idea of fine audio is an ipod docked to a little Bose speaker module. (puke)

Anyway, it cleaned up real good, and I sent it off to Rob, and he assures me it's back in fighting trim, and ready to sing again. I can't wait. The piece of gear I've ever like as much is my Gibson Byrdland!

Best,
Franz
or Frank if you prefer...

ANACRUSIS
06-02-2005, 10:55 PM
I have just gone through this thread, as I have wondered myself about the dlemma.

I own a Pioneer SX-1250 & Bose 800s Professional speakers (w/EQ). Got them from a business assoc. The Pioneer just needed a good cleaning and two pots, the 11-step bass and 11-step treble (broken shafts). Still need the 11-step treble. Anyone got one, let me know. It measured, DC Offset at least very well. Like +7 and +2 mV. No prob.
Oh yes, the tuner is SPOT on!

Also, own a Yamaha M-2. Thanks to BOLLY for supplying me with the specs and tolerances, I was able to get the M-2 back into spec relatively easy. Blame someone who opened it, probably to replace the lamps (they burn out so easily and randomly) and fiddled with the pots. One channel was a bit warm, the other cold. -500mV offset on both channels. Now get this:

+-60V respective on both rails respectively for left and right channels. Only one rail is set at like 60.1. Have a half volt to play with as tolerance. Bias is set at 55 mV spot on. Offset is now at 0 mV and 1mV respectively. Checked the M-4, wasn't worth dabling with. Only DC balance (offset) needed a slight tweak. It's now at 0 mV on both channels.

Give it up to some good cheapo 25 year old pots.

Anyway a lil more cleaning to do. But to the point, the Yammy gear sounds better. It has a less fatigueing (did I spell that right) sound especially in the highs. Moreso, at higher volume settings the M-2 has way more control. I can pump up some old Olympics from a reciever/record player combo (yes its way old),and it sounds terrific. The bass is well controlled. Hook up the Pioneer, good sound but the bass begins to get distorted a bit earlier. Basically I can crank it higher. Maybe I need to compare it too the M-4. Oh well, that DAMPENING factor may have something to do with it, 200 vs 30. (One caveat, dunno if the Pioneer is over entire region or just at 1 KHz like the yammies specs.)

I believe the resale is not as high for the Yammie stuff, because the separate stuff demands a premium most of the time. I had missed so many due to girlfriend interruptions and what not that I just paid the 200+ BIN prices for the C-4 and M-4. Got the M-2 for 75 at pawn shop :banana: :naughty: :lmao: :lmao: :smoke:

Notice that the toroidal transformers look very similar, probably sourced from same Nipponese manufacturer. Also wondering if the TO-3s are the same. If everything else were the same, the count of trasistors would match the power ratings, six per channel in the M-2 for 240 and 4 for 160 in the 1250. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Anyway like both. Again, I believe the discrepancy is due to the separates stuff. Additionally, there aren't any Yammie recievers built like the SX-1250 as far as I can tell--the separate amplifier section set apart, the heatsinks outboard. Even though some of the recievers look inside like the C-4 (the steps taken to keep short signal path), the SX-1250 and Yammie M-2 have more in common than the Yammie Recievers and Separates (don't shoot me!)

Both are great products. I prefer the SX-1250 for its resale and classy looks, tuner!, and options.

I like the Yammie separates cause they are awesome for whatever price.

Oh yes, Dont think the yammie metal used for the covers of amps and some other places was up to snuff. Guess everything that took the boat ride has had a tendency to do the slow-surface rust thing.

Let me end, whew I could go on for days!!!

Thanks again BOLLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

merrylander
06-03-2005, 07:40 AM
Regarding the Class argument, so far so good. Initially when the first transistor amps came out everyone was raving about "transistor sound", until they had listened for an hour or so and the headaches started. This was Class B and the sound was crossover distortion. Hard to draw pictures here, but it was basically that it took a finite period of time for the "off" transistor to switch "on" and so there was this flat spot at the zero crossing of the sine wave. So we then got Class AB, that means that the "off" transistor really is not "off" but is "idling" ready and waiting to roll. Every Yammie that I have worked on, with the exception of the CR-n40 series, has adjustments for "idling current". In most of the CR-n40s it is built into the Sanyo thick film components with the exception of the CR-2040. Since that unit has discrete components it has both DC Offset (like the rest of that series) and Idling current adjustments.

I have never encountered listening fatigue with any Yamaha that was properly adjusted. I had an A-1 integrated amp for over 20 years. Before I sold it I checked the settings and everything was within spec. As to the poor lamp complaints that A-1 finally had a lamp fail after 18 years, I only wish that GE and Philips light bulbs were that good.

Rob

mhardy6647
06-03-2005, 07:59 AM
My limited, anecdotal experience vis a vis Yamaha light bulbs suggests that the amps (separates)? and receivers maye have been different in terms of life expectancy? Most of the CR-x20 receivers I've seen at this point have lamps out. My CA-610II (bought new) and CT-610II (from eBAY a few years ago) still have good lamps.

Perhaps Merrylander has insight, although it's equally possible that my sample set is too small!

As to Class B crossover distortion: I think this image, albeit exaggerated, gives a sense of the problem. A spectral analysis of the distortion products of the sine waveform would probably be more enlightening, but this is what I found.

http://sound.westhost.com/class-a-3.gif

This is from the Eliott Sound Products site: http://sound.westhost.com/class-a.htm

Lookingglass100
06-03-2005, 03:06 PM
My experience is that the Yammy CA, CT, and CR series had a very sophisticated ( for the time ) amp and speaker protection circuit. It worked very well when new, but troubleshooting it was very time consuming. At current shop labor rates, most people would not pay to fix them.

merrylander
06-03-2005, 04:42 PM
I think the reason most CR-series units are seen with burnt out lamps is because they are soldered in place and as a result rarely get changed. Most other brands use plug in lamps that are (relatively) easy to replace albeit some are a real PITA. Yamaha used either 12 or 14 volt lamps running as series pairs (think christmas trees), so two 12 volt lamps will be across a 22 volt supply and two 14 volt lamps will be across a 26 volt supply. Forget where I read it, but if you derate a 5000 hour lamp to 80% of its rated voltage it becomes a 20,000 hour lamp.

Rob

Yamaha B-2
06-05-2005, 06:03 AM
Will be putting a nice CR-2040 on the market at the end of the summer if anyone might be interested (have to wrest it away from my brother, who is currently using). As soon as I have time to check/set the bias and DC offset and replace the lightbulbs. Buyer can choose the level of case upgrade he wants Merrylander to do. :thmbsp:

Not only did my brother refuse to give up the CR-2040, he had me drop it off with EW for a good cleaning and check-up. At least he met my reserve.

aidynphoenix
08-09-2005, 11:57 PM
i like yamaha, i have had some great amps that are yamaha's. right now i have a yamaha c4 hooked up to a m4 and it sounds pretty good.. however better speakers would show off the amp/pre a bit more..

peristalsis
08-10-2005, 10:09 AM
I have a CR-1020 that I'm just tickled with. It replaced a Sanyo Plus 75. I'm not in the habit of playing loud, generally a pair of bookshelves at low levels, but it gets loud enough when played through a pair of KLH stacked on a pair of Marantzs. The KLH's sound too bright to me, and the Marantzs a little too muddy, but playing all four at the same time they sound just right...john

Captain Yamaha
08-23-2005, 07:30 PM
Nothing wrong with having a favorite............ or two ! :thmbsp:

pmsummer
08-23-2005, 09:37 PM
Anecdotally, I think they were similar to the Tandberg. Similar 'crowd' purchased them. That is to say, not the younger, college-age crowd that seems to drive the market.


The Audiophile Candy Store I hung out at in the 70's sold McIntosh, Tandberg, Yamaha, and Sherwood (roughly in that order).

Today, I have a Mc in the "stereo room", a Sherwood in the guest bedroom, a Tandberg in the media room, and a Yamaha CR-1020 in my computer room.

I guess they made an impression on me back then!

Speakers? Three sets of Missions, some EPI 100s, and Boston Acoustic A-150 (the BAs are my "new" speakers).

Wintersmaster
08-23-2005, 10:10 PM
I just now read through all of this. Alright, I scanned through the technical stuff. Anytime there's a Yamaha subject, I check in. As a kid, I used to go to the stereo stores with my older brother and look at all of the new gear. This was in the late 70s. It was always an impressive experience, but I became fixated on the Yamahas. By the time I was old enough to buy a decent system, the era of fantastic gear was long gone. I tried to find what I could in garage sales, but usually if I found anything, it was pretty beaten up. Not until Ebay, a friend to return all my old records, and getting rid of a nagging girlfriend, was I able to buy my first Yammie. It was a 640. After I ruined that one replacing lamps, I bought my second 640, complete with working lights and I'm very pleased with it. Not nearly content though, I must attain a 2040. I think that's when I can rest easy.

HadYourPhil
08-24-2005, 09:12 AM
Merrylander, I have a CR-1040 with a bad driver IC. I understand the Sanyo # for the amp is STK-0080II, but do you know the driver? I had blown one once before and found a shop in Connecticut that actually had one or more (and the amp chips too). My only complaint about the CR-1040 is I think the amplifier circuit is a little delicate. Mine went bad at a very low volume setting, so it is possible there might be something else. I am trying to unearth a schematic/service manual, but no luck yet.
The suggestion in another thread about posting manuals, etc is very good and I have several I would be willing to complete.
Well, there is my first post... and a long one!

merrylander
08-25-2005, 07:31 AM
If I knew the Sanyo part # for the driver chip there would be a customer's 1040 go ut the dor fast as well as two 840s and a 640 that are sitting under the bench get back to singing.

Rob

gamalot
08-25-2005, 10:09 PM
Very Interesting thread for this X Yami lover.
I think the stuff I had and recently sold was all TOTL.
MX 1000 Class A Amp, MX 800 Class A& AB Amp, CX 1000 Pre and TX 950 Tuner. I also had four NS 1000M Speakers. All this gear was around 1988 vintage and it all sounded great together.

WHY X Yami Lover;

The MX 1000 amp ran about as hot as anything I have ever owned including my kitchen oven. After a good work out I swear I could fry eggs on it. It scared me.
The covers on the push buttons on each piece always fell off and I found it near impossible to keep the lights lit. Bulbs burned out all the time and only after I sold all the gear did I find a bunch of exact Yamaha bulbs that would have worked- Anyone need them????
Yamaha let us down BIG TIME and has no use for us Vintage lovers-Their LOSS. They will not help with parts and just don't care once a unit is more then 5-8 years old.
The sound quality and musical build quality was outstanding, The NS 1000M speakers were among the best I have ever owned and could rock any house just fine, almost unbreakable.
Had Yamaha been more customer oriented and cared alot more about us vintage lovers, it would still be here.
I can safely say I will never own Yamaha again but it is not because it didn't sound great, Yamaha as a company SUCKS.
Gary

merrylander
08-26-2005, 07:20 AM
Funny, none of my Yammies run hot, lamps are pretty easily replaced and last for a long time. The A-1 integrated amp I had ran barely warm, finally burnt out a lamp after 18 years and I got the replacements from Yamaha, with a recommendation that I change all three lamps while I was in there.

Parts availability for older units is hit or miss, got the output IC for a CR-240 last year but no parts for an R-2000 - go figure. Service manual copies are usually forthcoming quickly, guess I am a good customer.

Rob

shelby1420
08-26-2005, 07:44 AM
hi i am new here and i wanted to say i like yamaha i have had some great amps that are yamahas right now i have a yamaha c4 hooked up to a m4 and it sounds superb i am useing 4 jd audio 10" woofers and 1 10" sub and it runs into my pc and it is awesome with my 4gb of music files. great bass output

but i destroyed 2 mcs 3226 amps by turning em up 2 loud anyone else have this problem or used one of these before

welcome aboard!!! nice to have you!!!

gamalot
08-26-2005, 08:07 AM
Well Merrylander, I wish I had the same good fortune as you!
Try to find a lamp for a Yamaha MX 1000 or even one of the condoms that usually get fused to the glass when the lamp burns out. For a unit made in 1988 I find it disheartening when they say NO PARTS available for a unit that old.
My buddy and me both had MX 1000 Class "A" amps and both run very hot as compared to other high power units. Certainly hot enough that you want the amp out in the air and nothing on top of it!
Don't get me wrong, they sound and perform great, my problem is strictly one with customer support or the lack there of. I feel this is important!
Gary

joenielsen
08-26-2005, 11:23 AM
I for one am very happy that the price for Yamaha receivers is so low. My first piece of vintage equipment was a Yamaha CR-640 receiver (this was only about 4-5 months ago). Got it for $10.50 on ebay (plus $12 shipping). Very scratchy in the controls when I got it, but after a nice cleaning with deoxit it sounds mint! Aesthetically it also looks pretty good. Aside from a bent loudness nob, everything is great. I think it was a steal for $22 -- now I am hooked!

By the way, I figured out how to do the cleaning by reading up on this site. Thanks for the advice!

bOUddha
08-26-2005, 02:31 PM
A very nice R-1000 just sold for $451.00 yesterday... :sigh:

bully
08-26-2005, 05:41 PM
Gadzooks, I better put my R-2000 on the block!

Yamaha B-2
08-31-2005, 07:22 PM
My buddy and me both had MX 1000 Class "A" amps and both run very hot as compared to other high power units. Certainly hot enough that you want the amp out in the air and nothing on top of it!GarySuggest you both check the DC offset and bias on your amps. Mine did not run that hot. Also, 17 years is a long time in this age of electronics. Besides, you can better support here from EW, merrylnader and a few others than you could ever get from Yamaha.

pbda
09-01-2005, 03:59 PM
I like the look of the CR-1000 a lot, but on balance prefer the way the CR-2040 looks. I'm not running the former at the moment, since it has a few issues. I'll see what I can do myself, then throw myself at the mercy of Rob.

Yamaha B-2
09-01-2005, 05:12 PM
I agree with the looks of the CR-2040. Can't beat all that green light. But, for the best sound tune up your CA-2010. Or better yet. Recap the beast and give it a listen. Especially the phono-stage with Black Gates.

And, be careful. Rob is merciless. :naughty:

kenwood61
01-09-2009, 09:26 PM
I'm glad I found this thread :)

This question is probably more aimed at Merrylander . . . but it's about the Yamaha CR-640. I'm thinking about buying one locally to replace a Kenwood KR-4070 that I have. I'm wondering if it's a good move? The seller is asking $50 and says it's in excellent condition.

There's another seller with a CR-1020, but I don't have the $175 he wants. Plus, I'm not sure I'm ready for my Concept 6.5 to give up the spot a higher powered receiver like the 1020 would necessitate :)

Dark Knight
01-09-2009, 09:48 PM
This has been a fascinating thread and only confirms why I love the yamaha CA and CR series. I have enjoyed my CA series enormously. Yamaha started an interesting listening development. I originally like my music loud and heavily colored, i.e., I played with the tone controls like crazy. After a while, I tried the adviced by some in this thread (Rob) and set everything to flat. I hear so much more detail in the music now. It no longer has to be loud beacuse there is so much presence.

DK

lanteau
01-10-2009, 01:41 AM
I'm a sixteen year old kid and I just got a CR-800 for Christmas to replace some Sherwood BPC (RX-4103) I had in my stereo cabinet. It's my first piece of vintage gear and I absolutely love it. There still is nice stereo gear made today, but to equal the sound quality of the vintage stuff you have to put down way more $$$. I payed about 80 dollars for my CR-800 and it is near flawless after I replaced the lamps. Only issue is for some reason it does not obtain a stereo signal on FM. I love the way Yamahas look and sound, it makes me feel good to look over at night while laying in bed and see the glow of my CR-800 in the cabinet. :D

pbda
01-10-2009, 06:10 AM
If you haven't already, you may want to determine first if the problem is a burned out "stereo" light on the front panel.

wajobu
01-10-2009, 10:23 AM
IIRC, the CR-800 does not have a variable resistor adjustment for the "stereo" signal (VCO) like the later CR-xx20s do. I think that something might need to be replaced on the FM tuner board (no ICs there!) or it is POSSIBLE that the Stereo LED could be dead.

If you tune in a known FM Stereo signal station and then switch between stereo and mono, do you hear a difference? If not, it's likely something on the FM board. If you DO hear a "s-t-e-r-e-o" signal, then it's likely to be the LED.

Lanteau, AK member Merrylander will certainly know more :yes: The CR-800 is a beautiful receiver and it's very well built.

goldwax
01-14-2009, 09:47 PM
Hey, all!

I just found a gently used 1979 Yamaha CR-640 destined for the recycling center and have hooked it up--sounds great, except for some scratchiness in the controls. Also, some of the bulbs have burned out. Where can I find replacements? And is there anything I need to know before trying to solder them in?

Also, it appears that the FM muting button is broken. Stays permantly in the "out" position, even when I push it in. I can't see needing it overmuch, but I wonder if anyone can tell me how hard it would be to fix it and what I'd need to do.

Thanks, and I'm proud to be a new member of Club Yamaha!

AnalogDigit
01-14-2009, 11:54 PM
I bought a Yamaha CR-640 at a resale shop around 3 years ago for $70. It needed some deoxit on the controls. The tuner section is excellent on both AM and FM and I like the variable loudness control. Very nice sound. There very underrated compared to Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz and other receivers, but a good value for the price.

merrylander
01-15-2009, 07:17 AM
In answer to the CR-800 stereo problem, Yamaha did not begin using the FM multiplex ICs until the CR-n20 series so there does not appear to be a local 19kHz oscillator adjustment. The SM states that they insert the incoming 38kHz signal into a tapped coil and use the upper and lower output to switch a pair of transistors, generating L&R signals this way.

inaptitude
01-15-2009, 08:55 AM
Hi everyone. Interesting thread. Question...

I am going to go take a look at a Yamaha CR2020 Receiver to match up with my Thorens TD-124 turntable. From the photo it looks to be in great shape. Also, the owner says it works great. But as with all old electronics, I want to check for myself. I would love some advice on just what steps I should take to check it out. What are some signs that things might not be as they seem?

Also, asking price is $350 (cdn). Is it worth it?

Thanks in advance.

Raynald
01-15-2009, 07:02 PM
Nice ones have been going on eBay from just over $300 cnd to well over $500 and then there would be huge shipping fees. So the price is not bad if the unit is very clean, no scratches, dents, etc. Given the current state of things you could try for $300, but the asking price is fine for a good one especially if it will be a pick up.

The big problem with the 2020 is a couple of under spec parts that carry over from the lower power 1020. Fortunately it is a black or white thing. When they blow the power meters go screwy and nothing works. Merrylander can give the exact symptoms. There was a service bulletin put out to fix it and it should ideally be done at some point.

The other points to look at would be just like any other vintage piece. Make sure the pots and controls work and are not scratchy, all panel and dial lights work and that the sound is good in both channels. Then check the tuner, make sure it pulls in stations well and the stereo light comes on when appropriate. If you want go a bit further, read the post about DC Offset, bring a Multimeter and check it. It only takes a few seconds.

If I have missed anything, others will fill in.

Good luck, let us know how it comes out.

arnaq
01-14-2010, 12:14 AM
I have a Yamaha CR-640 that I bought new at a discount price in 1982 because it was a discontinued model back then. After 7 years of daily use, left power amp IC burnt, letting DC curent flow to the left speaker (small Mission 70 at that time), and fried the woofer. I was quite disapointed, I have to say it sounded very well, but it was fragile, overheating easily, went on protection often (where was my friend protection when output burnt????). I had two different speakers in it's early years because one was getting fixed, and it didn't like it, it was probably because of an impedance missmatch, it might have damage the outputs at high volume. I liked very loud music at the time, I was young and crazy! It's probably why it died after 7 years, having the volume at 2 o'clock most of the time, we can say it was a beatten amp.
Anyway I was a student and pretty poor when it died, so could just afford to replace the fried woofer, and bought a cheap Sony receiver in a garage sale for $30 to replace the Yamie, that ended up in the closet for many years. the Sony was a piece of shit, a silver 30watts receiver, I replaced the output transistors so many times since they were AlWAYS blowing up,but cheap to buy. It sounded like shit, I gave it away to someone less rock'n'roll than me on audio amps.. After that I did fall on an old Fisher 600-t solid state receiver, in bad shape but with the outputs and few caps replaced, it sounded way better than the Sony, but coloured compared to the Yamaha CR-640, especialy in the bass, in my souvenirs anyway. Replaced afterwards with a Kenwood kr-7400 all discrete output, the thoughest I've ever had, after a good cleaning it was tight, no scratchy pots and switches, clean sound, I was very impressed, for a receiver from 1974-78, it aged very well! The best stereo image of all the the solid state gear I've ever had, you could clearly hear what instuments were in front, and the subtles ones in the back (due to low IM distortion??), being the Yamaha CR-640's weakness. sold it for a Marants 2235, deception! scratchy pots never came back even with deoxit, dark sound, undefined bass, no punch, maybe due to very high milleage, slow power supply caps, I dont'no.. Then a Pioneer SX-3600, almost as bad as the Sony, no comments, it lays in my mom's living room now...
By that time, we were about in 2001, and it became easy to get an all scratched bad looking beatten-up old CR-640 for parts on eBay for cheap, and take out that old Yamaha from my closet, and fix it.. which I did. Maybe I should have bought new output IC's insted, but I didn't want to invest to much on it. I realize it is old, and capacitors have a life of about 10-15 years (even if I found many 40-80 years old caps still working!), but god it's bad! scratchy pots and switches that don't react very well to Deoxit (bad storage?), Hum from pr-amp, bloatty and undefined bass (power sup caps?), distortion at low level (kinda white noise) it aged badly compared to some Kenwoods I've seen, even early Fishers american early solid state receivers. So my conclusion is that it is slightly superior to most Japanese vintage solid state receivers, fragile, the power amps IC's are probably Sanyo's relabeled, witch could explain many weakness like bad stereo image with no depth, Alps pots and switches are obviously not the most expensive, to be polite, putting input switches close to input plugs was certainly of good will, but it deosn't make it an exceptional piece of equipment.
During those years I've heard a lot of tube equipment, and will probably buy a brand new Audio Research tube power amp to drive my Pierre Etienne Léon MK-IV speakers, and won't bother to put any money on the CR-640, I'll just keep it as a sentimental value, since I bought it new at 14 y/o, I had to deliver the local newspaper for 2 years to be able to pay the $480 or so to aquire it.

goldwax
01-14-2010, 01:49 AM
What an odyssey! Glad it brought you to AK--hope you stick around!

handysteel
01-25-2010, 05:22 AM
Hi all,
I own a CR-800 and an R-500 recievers, They are both great recievers but I prefer the looks and larger size of the CR-800 over the R-500. I am running them with a pair of B&W DM2a speakers (I change the speakers over as required between recievers).

What is the main difference in build design between the two. other than the cosmetic looks?

RichPA
01-25-2010, 05:33 AM
Since this thread was originally posted years ago, the Dollars and Sense forum has been developed as the (only) place for value questions.

Jygesq
02-03-2010, 02:45 PM
I've noticed people around here love Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood and some others, but the Yamaha's don't seem to be as near and dear to your hearts. I looked on Ebay and there have been a 2040, 1040 and a 1020 that didn't get a single bid. The 1040 has been relisted at $10 cheaper :eek: :D

I really like the "40" series having had a couple different models over the years and still do. I'm interested in the 1040 on Ebay, but I'am wondering if there is something I'm missing here.

How about it guys & gals? Shain? Grumpy? It always worked. Sounded great never failed I paid around $547 I think and sold it for $125

merrylander
02-04-2010, 07:01 AM
Hi all,
I own a CR-800 and an R-500 recievers, They are both great recievers but I prefer the looks and larger size of the CR-800 over the R-500. I am running them with a pair of B&W DM2a speakers (I change the speakers over as required between recievers).

What is the main difference in build design between the two. other than the cosmetic looks?

The R-500 uses STK power output modules whereas the CR-800 is all discrete. You will also look far and wide to find a better front end than the CR-800 sports. I have one as my shop receiver driving Polk Monitor 10Bs.:thmbsp:

RSDeuce
05-28-2010, 02:33 PM
I just want to say, thanks for this thread. This whole discussion was one of my main points of reference for taking the plunge and buying my new amp. You can find the pics and details in my intro thread here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=301652

Really, I am happy to join the forums and this group of enthusiasts. Thanks.

Anubis
05-28-2010, 03:06 PM
Hmm, makes me wonder why there are a ton of CR-1000s on CL that are $100?

RSDeuce
05-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Hmm, makes me wonder why there are a ton of CR-1000s on CL that are $100?

I have no clue, but I got mine for $100. It works just fine, but it seems that there are a few weak points in part replacement that could kill it for good. Maybe these are suffering?

This one has lasted 3 months... Seems to be solid.

texasquad
06-13-2010, 08:56 PM
Yamaha CR-2020 Receiver $350 on CL Not mine


http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/1776977566.html

Analog King
06-14-2010, 12:14 AM
Not CR series, but I am running a C-70 with a B-3 and I love the sound they produce. Just really smooth and listenable.
I have an ONKYO on the other side of the room as a second system and when you first power it up it has this LOUD boombastic bass heavy sound which a lot of visitors say they prefer to the Yamahas. Spend some time with both though and you quickly realize the YAMAHA set up is so much nicer to listen too.
The bass doesnt overide everything, it is nice and tight and just where it should be.
I am currently using a pair of Diatone speakers with this set up but on Friday will be adding a pair of NS200ma's. Can't wait!!

Balifly
06-14-2010, 01:34 AM
Give us a report after you have enjoyed them for a while.
Here is a link provided by AK member ryuuoh in a previous thread.
http://www.audio-heritage.jp/YAMAHA/speaker/ns-200ma.html

Analog King
06-14-2010, 01:49 AM
Will do!!
I wonder how these compare to the standard NS200m's ?
They were slightly more expensive back in the day.