Watkins 12" Woofer Refoam Question

[Kencat]

I thought I was all set to begin refoaming the woofers today for the Quantum 2's when the package arrived.

Looked at the foams and :tears: , they were angle mount style. I had asked that they be flat mount, but something got mistranslated. The store, will take them back, but they don't have the flat style.

Does anyone know if the angle mount style would work without affecting anything ? The woofer cone has a definite flat lip on the edge of the cone to mount to.

I'm thinking the molded-in-angle of the foam lip will put force on the cone and cause it to sit out of design position at rest.

Just wondering what other thoughts are, or if anyone has had a similar experience.

[SicMan]

Not sure if those will work but I just did my Q3's with a kit I got off of E-PAY they were made for those woofers. I believe the guy is still selling them. I think he's charging $24 + sh .

John

Racoon those Woogers! :banana:

[Kencat]

John.

Do you have his name? There's a few sellers on ebay for foams.

Did you notice whether the foams you had were flat mount or angle mount? I quess they worked out for you ok ?

I'm striking out finding a local source who knows much about foams. Sad!

[SicMan]

Ken -- I was able to find the flat mount ones. Take a look at this one. It's not the same guy I bought from. I can't seem to find the one selling the same stuff. This guy seems to have a good rep.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5838459260&refid=store&ssPageName=STORE:HTMLBUILDER:SIMPLEITEM

[botrytis]

You could just send it to Watkins himself. I guess they are tricky buggers to align (being that they have 2 voice coils).

http://www.watkinsstereo.com/pages/1/index.htm

Dave

[Army]

I used the standard 12" surround sold by Matt electronics and it worked just fine. Parts Express also sells a kit that would work great as well.

Matt electronics sells the surrounds very inexpensively at a round $2 if memory serves. But they require a minimum $25 order. The kits from Parts Express are around the same price, but include glue and gaskets etc...

As for the dual voice coil, it made no difference, shimmed the same as others :thmbsp:

[Kencat]

You could just send it to Watkins himself. I guess they are tricky buggers to align (being that they have 2 voice coils).

http://www.watkinsstereo.com/pages/1/index.htm

Dave

Ouch,Ouch,Ouch...my wallet. OOOOh that would hurt. That's a long shipping distance.

More than that though, I would rather take my chances on me screwing up the refoam than to have them lost or destroyed in the shipping. My screwup I could fix, the other way is total loss of something rare. :no:

I did briefly think of that though...very briefly. :D

[Kencat]

I used the standard 12" surround sold by Matt electronics and it worked just fine. Parts Express also sells a kit that would work great as well.

Matt electronics sells the surrounds very inexpensively at a round $2 if memory serves. But they require a minimum $25 order. The kits from Parts Express are around the same price, but include glue and gaskets etc...

As for the dual voice coil, it made no difference, shimmed the same as others :thmbsp:

I was going to do this the shimmless way. Do you think I'm pushing it?

I did my HPM-60's that way. No problems. I have a pretty good feel for if its rubbing or not, and align the foam as it's setting by pushing and pulling on the cone, gently.

Am I getting too cocky ?

[Army]

Am I getting too cocky ?


No I'd say if you've had good results stay with what works for you. Like you said (and thats the beauty of DIY) if you screw it up, just do it over :D

The dual voice coil refoams just like a single voice coil, line it up, glue it up :thmbsp:

I prefer shimming, just because thats what I tried first and stay with what works for me.

Good Luck Ken

PS the old yellowish brown glue they used on the Watkins was a bitch to get off clean, I've got a couple of handy tricks, pm me if you like.

[Charivari]

For Infinities, most recommend using Orange County Speaker Repair's (http://www.speakerrepair.com) surround kit. I used it to good effect, though I found their supplied cardboard gasket to be too large and required some trimming to fit the frame. For alignment, I hadn't yet learned of all the tricks, so I just roughed it in by feel and had no problem. Fortunately, the Watkins aren't as tight down in the gap as some drivers can be, so there's a little room to play in alignment.

- JP

[Kencat]

For Infinities, most recommend using Orange County Speaker Repair's (http://www.speakerrepair.com) surround kit. I used it to good effect, though I found their supplied cardboard gasket to be too large and required some trimming to fit the frame. For alignment, I hadn't yet learned of all the tricks, so I just roughed it in by feel and had no problem. Fortunately, the Watkins aren't as tight down in the gap as some drivers can be, so there's a little room to play in alignment.

- JP

Hey there JP,

You,ve been laying a bit low lately, must be exam time at school huh ?

By tricks do you mean using batteries or applying tones to the VC while setting the foam. ?

Good to hear there is room to play in there though.

I have found some Canadian sources to try to avoid the far shipping and any potential extra fees Canada Customs likes to tack on randomly. With extra charges, you have to pay the courier on delivery, and if you aren't home in the middle of the day on a work day, you don't get the parcel. Pain in the rear....and free trade my **s. Nothing free about it.

Hadn't thought about the cardboard gasket. I guess it pretty much gets destroyed in the process. Seems like a useless piece though....other than providing a little bit of cosmetics. Probably could not find it here in Canuck Land. I'll look into that orange county speaker place...maybe get a T-shirt too.....sort of like Orange County Choppers eh?

[Charivari]

Hey there JP,

You,ve been laying a bit low lately, must be exam time at school huh ?
More like out of town for the weekend and spending a day down at the Portland gathering while having only very limited access to the internet and keeping busy all the same. I was done with finals Friday morning with one of the last examinations at the U for the term. :no:

By tricks do you mean using batteries or applying tones to the VC while setting the foam. ?
Yep, that's what I meant. The Watkins were my first refoam, so I didn't have shims, nor batteries, nor tones to set it, I just aligned the cones visually and pressed listening for rub until I got it right. I seem to have done something right as they work perfectly for me right up to their excursion max (beware of some Telarc CDs at high volume and the bass accidentally pushed to max).

I have found some Canadian sources to try to avoid the far shipping and any potential extra fees Canada Customs likes to tack on randomly. With extra charges, you have to pay the courier on delivery, and if you aren't home in the middle of the day on a work day, you don't get the parcel. Pain in the rear....and free trade my **s. Nothing free about it.
Well, that sucks, but hopefully it'll also mean you'll get the good sooner.

Hadn't thought about the cardboard gasket. I guess it pretty much gets destroyed in the process. Seems like a useless piece though....other than providing a little bit of cosmetics. Probably could not find it here in Canuck Land. I'll look into that orange county speaker place...maybe get a T-shirt too.....sort of like Orange County Choppers eh?
The gasket is vital for drivers that are mounted behind the baffle, but for these Watkins set out on their special time/phase alignment ring it's just cosmetic. Still, I'd try to get one that fits as the drivers look a lot better with it.

- JP

[Kencat]

The gasket is vital for drivers that are mounted behind the baffle, but for these Watkins set out on their special time/phase alignment ring it's just cosmetic.

- JP

Time/phase alignment ring you say. Is that what that is? I was looking at it wondering :wtf: is that for? Guess I better not lose them or toss them out.

Lots to learn about these Quantums. :scratch2:

[Charivari]

Yep, that little ring that holds the woofer out a bit is meant to align the cone with the domes and EMITs to keep the phasing the same. Heck, the crossover is designed to be time and phase aligned, they just didn't want the advantages lost in haphazard driver placement.

Lots to learn about these Quantums. Many of the little details incorporated into the design were upwards of 20 years ahead of the rest.
- JP

[newoldguy]

Ken

You are not dealing with any run of the mill speaker.This line,The Quantums,were the ultimate design of the time,by a very progressive company.Infinity was known for thinking "outside the box" so the speakers are very much state of the art.The Quantum Reference Source,which I do not know if ever really hit the market,used a tweeter design unlike anything ever designed before,no driver,a glass like tube with elastic diaghrams,they were working on a real odd woofer also.
These speakers were so far ahead of their time,they would not be out of place today up against most of the best.The line array design of speakers is starting a resurgence in very high end speakers today,$38,000 and up.They sound like Infinity Quantums !!!
I agree with others in doing research on these units as they are unlike anything else.Could never understand why they were not more popular,I guess the price had something to do with it.

Regards
Mike

High quality audio is timeless!

[Kencat]

Mike,

I was just trying to be silly about losing the ring. I was really wondering though, what that ring was doing there as it looked kind of "useless" being outside of the woofer basket.

It was good to know that it has a function as JP pointed out.

I do know that these are some really special speakers, from what I have learned so far. It would be nice to know more about the engineering and theory that went into these. There seems to be a lack of interest and information on them for some reason. I wonder if there is any hard copy literature available ? When I can, I think I'll search some of the book sites. Maybe peruse the local Chapters store as well.

A guy from the Yahoo Infinity site emailed me asking what I bought mine for, and what I thought a fair price was for a set of Q2's. He has a seller lined up.

Bottom line, I told him I wouldn't take 2,000$ for mine at this point. I want to get them operational and listen to them. Even if they aren't perfect, and what is, I don't think I would part with these for a long time. I bought these based on one picture with the grills on and a feeling that I had to have these speakers. Karma?

[Charivari]

So, Kencat, did you get these refoamed yet? I was doing some measurements today and have become all the more impressed (http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36275&page=3) with these speakers.

On a related note, I downloaded the correction values for my Radio Shack SPL meter last night and made a disc of test tones to match the values. Today, I've been doing some measurements without the Quantum 2s particularly well positioned or anything and the results have been amazing. In my room, my Q2s (spec'd at -2 dB at 24 Hz anechoic) are only down 9 dB at 10 Hz, 4 dB at 16 Hz, and flat +/- 2 dB (aside from one - 7.5 dB room mode at ~63 Hz) from 18 Hz on up to 100 Hz. No, I did not have my subwoofer engaged at the time, so, wow, those Watkins are amazing.

Hope to hear your impressions of these fulling operational.

- JP

[Kencat]

So, Kencat, did you get these refoamed yet? I was doing some measurements today and have become all the more impressed (http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36275&page=3) with these speakers.



Hope to hear your impressions of these fulling operational.

- JP

JP,

Well.....not quite.

I do have all the goodies in house now though to get into the task. Finally found an excellent Canuck source for speaker refurb - http://www.lab-acoustics.com/
They are located in Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. Got the flat mount foams with glue, dust caps, VC shims, cardboard gaskets. Excellent company to deal with.

I just finished a refoam job on some woofers for my sister for an old Lloyd's set of 3 way 10" speakers. Wanted to get the extra practise in before tackling the Watkins (scared to death to mess these up :worried: ).

I'll be starting tomorrow. I've been reading your posts on the sound meter measurements.....can't wait to hear these in action now. Not sure how much I should get into the pots at this point though. I've got some LPS Electro Contact Cleaner on hand, wondering whether or not to give the pots a clean up......could end up with totally messed up situation.

Stayed tuned :D

[macaltec]

Ken,

You can't mess up refoaming. I just refoamed the Watkins drivers from my RS 1.5's with the foams from MATElectronics. Probably not the most optimum fit but it worked and they sound great. I've found that there is not too much you can do to ruin a speaker unless you tear the cone real bad or somehow destroy or burn up the VC. I'm gonna have to build new cabinets for mine so I may be going with a larger enclosure to take advantage of the drivers lower end capabilities. Hope you get them going soon. I'd go ahead and get those pots cleaned while your in there. If not you'll just have to take it all back apart later. May shorten your first listen too.

mac

[Kencat]

Ken,

You can't mess up refoaming. I just refoamed the Watkins drivers from my RS 1.5's with the foams from MATElectronics. Probably not the most optimum fit but it worked and they sound great. I've found that there is not too much you can do to ruin a speaker unless you tear the cone real bad or somehow destroy or burn up the VC. I'm gonna have to build new cabinets for mine so I may be going with a larger enclosure to take advantage of the drivers lower end capabilities. Hope you get them going soon. I'd go ahead and get those pots cleaned while your in there. If not you'll just have to take it all back apart later. May shorten your first listen too.

mac

Hey Mac, Merry Xmas btw :thmbsp:

Did you shim the VC when refoaming the Watkins?

I am debating whether to go this route or not. I've done two sets of woofers successfully without shimming so far. Seems like a lot of trouble to cut out the original dustcap etc, etc. Also, even with shimming, if the foam is installed with stresses in one direction or another, the cone , and hence VC could still be thrown out of whack.

Any opinions ?

[macaltec]

Ken,

I had to cut the spider on one to get some gritty type material from the VC gap and clean up the ID of the VC former. I had to shim this one for obvious reasons the other woofer with the dustcap still intact I foamed without shimming. Of all of the speakers I've refoamed the gap on these woofers seems to be fairly big so If all is well with them before you start I see no reason to shim. Both of my woofers were kept outside for an undisclosed period of time before I found them. Aside from having to clean out the VC gap in the one I have had no problems with mine so they seem to be pretty resiliant. Let us know when you get them done.

mac

[bocoogto]

I had my Q2 woofers refoamed at Simply Speakers about 11 years ago. They did a good job as far as I can see, for about $90 including shipping. One of them, however has a tendency to "bottom out" more easily than the other. Mr. Watkins says it is the large volume of the Q2 versus Q3, Q5, etc. that allows too much excursion. He suggested I put enough hard foam or other solid material in them to make them equal in volume to the Q3. The problem with that is losing 3-5 Hz on low end extension. Also, it does not explain why one is so much more prone to bottoming than the other. Is it possible that the foam on the one is holding the cone in one direction at rest, limiting travel in that direction? Has anyone run into this? Another reconing service said this is because the spiders were not replaced. What do you think?

I have two more Watkins woofers that need refoaming, and would like to know more about the above before I do that or have it done.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[macaltec]

bo,

I was concerned about the apparent "laziness" of one of the spiders on my woofers before refoaming. It seems to be fine but I am curious to know what others think of this and their answers to your question.

mac

[Kencat]

Man, these are one mother of a woofer......have a bit of heft to them eh? :thmbsp:

I also noticed that the spider seems very compliant on these. It takes nothing to move the cone a bit. I figure this is part of the design. At least I hope so :scratch2:

That foam is on the cone with some wicked glue. Alcohol won't "soften" it. I scaped as much off as possible without wrecking the VC as the cone moves around. I glued the one new foam on top of about 0.020 - 0.030" of solid old stuff. Hopefully this would not put the cone out of position ....don't think so.

No problem with cleaning off the basket though.

Anyone else know of some good cone-friendly dissolver for that old foam/glue ?

Re the cone bottoming on a driver - I was concerned initially about refoaming with an angle mount foam vs the required flat mount. Seeing how compliant the spider is makes be glad I waited to get the flat mount foam so the cone is kept close to design position.

[Kencat]

bo,

I was concerned about the apparent "laziness" of one of the spiders on my woofers before refoaming. It seems to be fine but I am curious to know what others think of this and their answers to your question.

mac

mac,

was there a significant difference between the feel of the two drivers? That would be a concern I think. Was it between an old vs new spider? as you mentioned you had to cut one up.

Maybe these Watkins have a tendency for the spiders to "loosen" with age and/or use?

[macaltec]

Keep in mind that these lived outdoors for an undisclosed amount of time. The one I'm suspect of faired worse than the other in a missing dustcap and the gritty VC gap. It didn't feel different between each driver really. The one that is suspect sat lower in the basket than the other. I re-used the old spider as I didn't cut it from the woofer just the basket. The performance seems to be equal between them so far.

mac

[Charivari]

I had my Q2 woofers refoamed at Simply Speakers about 11 years ago. They did a good job as far as I can see, for about $90 including shipping. One of them, however has a tendency to "bottom out" more easily than the other. Mr. Watkins says it is the large volume of the Q2 versus Q3, Q5, etc. that allows too much excursion. He suggested I put enough hard foam or other solid material in them to make them equal in volume to the Q3. The problem with that is losing 3-5 Hz on low end extension. Also, it does not explain why one is so much more prone to bottoming than the other. Is it possible that the foam on the one is holding the cone in one direction at rest, limiting travel in that direction? Has anyone run into this? Another reconing service said this is because the spiders were not replaced. What do you think?

I have two more Watkins woofers that need refoaming, and would like to know more about the above before I do that or have it done.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Bocoogto,

These big Infinities are sealed speakers as far as the Watkins is concerned and as such are prone to having boomy bass or bottoming out early if there's a leak somewhere in the cabinet. It sounds like that one Q2 may have a leak or more of a leak than the other resulting in what you've been hearing and also limiting how low they can go. It needn't be much, but you'll want to find it.

To that end, I suggest playing a bass heavy passage over and over at moderately high levels (if your amp and room can handle it) and listen for a chuffing sound around the Watkins, woofer phase ring, midrange domes, or back panel and feel for a breeze with the back of your hand. If you can't find it this way, you'll have to go through stepwise to fix it.

The Watkins woofer originally had, at least on mine, a thin foam gasket between the frame and the phase ring to seal this space. Unfortunately, these appear to be made of the same type of foam that rots as mine were almost gone. It could be that yours are gone as well and if so, you should be able to use weather stripping tape as a workable replacement. You might also want to put a little non-reactive goop on those long screws just in case they're a bit loose in the holes and allowing a leak through there -- the holes go all the way through on mine. The phase ring could also be a bit loose, so you'll want to feel for any leaks around that and check how well the glue's still holding it on.

For the other possibilities, the midrange domes should have a thin foam gasket betwixt them and the baffle to seal the cab for the Watkins. If this is missing, you'll need to replace it. I tried cork gasket material to some success, but it isn't as pretty as it could be, so you'll want to try to find some other option. The final area of leakage could very well be the back panel where the inputs and pots are. Everything should be nice and tightly mounted and there should be, of course, no holes. If not, you'll want to fix that. Also, check your fuse holder as it is not air-tight on its own and Infinity originally wadded a bit of plumber's caulk (forever sticky and clay-like) around it on the inside for sealage.

Hopefully, you'll be able to find the problem and fix it so you can finally enjoy just how good the Watkins bass can be.

- JP

[Kencat]

Very astute reasoning there JP. Air leaks...Hmmm. Timely too :D

I've got my woogers racooned but waiting for the time to have a look at the pots before installing. On removal though, I noticed remnants of sticky backed foam that was wrapped around the basket, just inboard of the mounting flange in the radius and down the flat a bit. The foam was approximately 1/4" thick ( I think :scratch2: ), and would have sealed to the baffle board if I recall correct, or to the side of ring and the baffle. This may have been a 1st line of defence to seal before the ring-to-baffle gap. I was hoping to get some measurements of the foam thickness, but the darn stuff dusted away on me too soon.

Pics attached. Gotta show off the refoam job too. Did it freehand ( no shims) and the VC feels good.

I was wondering whether to replace this foam or not, and was kind of tending to conclude not to bother, just put a little caulking between the flange and ring.

I think I'll spend some time to duplicate this seal now though :yes:

[Kencat]

The Watkins woofer originally had, at least on mine, a thin foam gasket between the frame and the phase ring to seal this space. Unfortunately, these appear to be made of the same type of foam that rots as mine were almost gone. It could be that yours are gone as well and if so, you should be able to use weather stripping tape as a workable replacement.

- JP

I think you are referring to the same foam gasket here as in my last post? I didn't catch on to the description on my 1st read. Doh!

[Charivari]

Yep, that's what I was talking about. I figured it not necessary myself until experience taught me otherwise. With strong bass passages, the chuffing and whistle coming from around the Watkins was quite loud and very detracting. Replacing the gasket not only removed that bit of noise, it also helped tighten and deepen the bass quite a bit. So, it's definitely worth the effort.

- JP

[Kencat]

Yep, that's what I was talking about. I figured it not necessary myself until experience taught me otherwise. With strong bass passages, the chuffing and whistle coming from around the Watkins was quite loud and very detracting. Replacing the gasket not only removed that bit of noise, it also helped tighten and deepen the bass quite a bit. So, it's definitely worth the effort.

- JP

Man...that's what this forum is all about, sharing the wealth. :thmbsp:

Do you recall the thickness of foam that you used? Is a 1/4" enough ??

[Charivari]

1/4" should be fine, you only need to have enough thickness to accomodate the gap between frame and phase ring, which isn't much. While you're at it, be sure to check to see if your midrange domes still have their foam gasket (not prone to rot, but sometimes removed by owner/repairer) as that was another problem area for me.

Sooo, you going to fire these off tonight? :naughty:

- JP

[Kencat]

Sooo, you going to fire these off tonight? :naughty:

- JP

Naw....not much time left in the evening out here (9:25 PM).

Besides, the speakers got buried behind furniture as one daughter decided to paint her room and moved all the furniture into the one where the Q2's are. :sigh:

[Kencat]

To all Watkins Woofer experts out there. Think there may be an emerging issue with one of my woofers??

I noticed while refoaming, that the cone flange sat lower than the basket (or frame) flange, on the driver with the cone closest to the spider. The foam actually sat higher than the cone when resing on the basket. The driver with the cone about 1/8" above the spider seemed more correct with the fit of the foam.

Is this normal variation, or has one of these cones moved, and is thus loose ?