Can someone tell me what this means?

[THOR]

"Multi-Zone 1 stereo pre-amp level audio outputs "

This is a spec for a Denon AVR-982 HT reciever, does this mean it has pre amp outputs for amps to be used in an HT application??

[Night Wolf]

multi-zone is like where you can have the radio playing in the kitchen an a DVD going in the living room, all from the same receiver.

I am not sure what the rest of it means, if I had to guess, it is saying your receiver has this capability, but needs a external amp to power the other set of speakers, but the receiver will be the pre-amp and control everything that goes to the power amp.

of course I could be wrong, that is just how I see it.

[JonTee]

Yes. My Marantz SR8200 has preouts to run a amp(s) and video for another room(s). This is separate from the multi-room speaker outputs that you may have for running speakers in another room off the amp that is in your receiver (usually the left and right rear speaker amps).

I'm not familiar with Denon, however, when using the multi-room speaker or output jacks you can select different sources other than your main room source, but, the inputs must be analog. This would require analog interconnects as well as digital (if the source has both).

JT:)

[THOR]

Well I went to the Denon website and figured it out, they are pre outs to run your HT speakers off of seperate amps instead of using the recievers power, Front left/right , center, surrounds etc. must be the multi zones thing. One of these are just what I need, thanks guys.

[Toasted Almond]

Here's my take.... Another piece of audio equipment, where the LAST thing on the engineers checklist was "How is it going to sound?" Sonics comes in AFTER, remote capability, visual displays, multi-zone capability, multi-disc capability, and a whole bunch of other things that either have nothing to do with the way it SOUNDS, or will actually degrade good sonics.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

[Thatch_Ear]

Sounds like it would be just another piece of gear. You already have a system in place and a DVD player has analog outputs that you can hook all those ICs you have been buying to.
:D

[THOR]

I am about 1 week away from having a 48" or 51" 16:9 HDTV in my living room, since I am gonna spend a nice chunk of change to have a movie screen in my living room I want movie theater sound so what I am trying to do is figure a way out to use my current speakers and amps not only for stereo but also for HT. For pure stereo music I plan on keeping things as is but I need to figure out a way to add the HT.

Thatch I am confused???? Don't I need a HT reciever or a HT pre amp of some sort to have 5.1 or 6.1 Dolby digital DTS surround sound?? I can't just plug in my amps to a DVD and get surround sound can I??

[Thatch_Ear]

Sure can. I even divided the center channel signal and ran it into a stereo amp so that I can use my Shahinians for my center. Sounds great. The player will do everything but amplify the sound. Using real sound systems sounds great too. I have a Marantz driving a pair of Altecs for the rears. All I did was use ICs into the Aux. Only thing is you can't adjust the sound with remote, you will have to walk over to the gear to do that. Life is hard.

[Toasted Almond]

You need a home theater receiver to do that 5.1 and 6.1 stuff (or at least a preamp/decoder). BUT, you raise a question I have had since 5.1's infancy. WHY NOT have a dvd player with decoder, AND output level control? This way all you would need to do is have a dvd player and some power amps. Shit, even if the output levels were of fixed intensity, you could still get power amps that had INPUT level controls, and remove the HT receiver from the equation.

I would imagine the answer is the same as the answer to this question... Why not develop more cars that use alternate forms of energy? Answer? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

[THOR]

Thatch there is just the left and right outputs on a DVD player right? No front/left, front/right, rear/left, rear/right, center channel, subwoofer right? So how are you getting 5.1 or 6.1 Dolby DTS surround? Or do you mean you are just splitting the signal out of the DVD player to all your speakers? If that is the case I understand what you are doing but it is not truly surround sound as in the sounds come out of the appropriate speaker in realationship to the movie, like if a car door slams on the right side of the screen in the movie the sound of the door slamming comes out of the right speaker or speakers. I still remember the joy when I had my old el cheapie dolby surround sound system a few years back and I watched Days of Thunder and when Cole Trickle is test driving the other guys stock car and I stood in the center of my living room and I could hear the race car doing laps around my living room. I want to experience that every time I watch a movie.

[JonTee]

Thor,

Multi-zone is separate from your HT. It runs another system in another room using your processor in the HT system to handle the input signals. You can run 2 different programs (or more)thru the same processor in different parts of your house.

TA was right about needing a DAC to run 5.1. You wouldn't need a HT system to do what it sounds like you want with your present equipment. I've seen them in pawn shops and on ebay for $100-$200.

Thatch you could do what you suggest but for home theater it won't process your digital signals for theater sounds to sound right. In other words, it would sound awful. Also, I really appreciate a remote since I was in a car accident and have been restricted. to a wheelchair.

JT

[THOR]

DAC? Is that a decoder? Hmmm i will check that out thanks!

[Thatch_Ear]

Sorry about you being in a wheelchair man. I can walk fine but run out of air climbing the stairs because I was bit by a bug in the tropics.
As far as the sound, well, all your DVD players have DACs built in. Mine will also play CDs, VCDs, SACDs and has TruSurround, DTS, Dolby Pro Logic. You can also set it for large speakers so it sends the full signal and not just 120 Hz and up on all the speakers including the rear and center. You can also set delays so that the rears fire milliseconds after the fronts and center.
All this is hooked up with ICs and there is no way that you or anybody else can get a better sound out of their system with a HT reciever unless you get at least into the $5K region for the piece of gear only, let alone the speakers. Besides I personally think it is kind of crazy to buy a reciever or integrated amp for the features that are already in the DVD player.
Personally, leaving out the fact that I have to individually adjust 4 separate volume controls, I would put my system up against anything under $100K installed.
Then I can go over, push a couple of buttons, turn a couple of things off and presto I am back to stereo, pop in a CD and sit back to enjoy the music.
Now Thor might have to get a preamp to control a sub or two and if he doesn't like the speakers in the TV he can get an integrated and another set of speakers for the center channel.
Next new thing down the road if he decides to get it will take a new DVD player anyway but other than that another integrated and more speakers and he is upgraded. Using a HT integrated he would have to replace that everytime he upgraded his DVD player and that is costly compared to getting a Sansui from Grumpy.

[THOR]

Thatch so your DVD has RCA's out for every speaker?? So that you can get surround? My GF's daughter has a DVD and like a Hi-Fi VCR it has just the thre RCA's Left and right audio and the yellow video out. What kind of DVD is it?

[THOR]

Ah HAH! Something like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3014576841&category=3316

But what about volume controls on all the amps? How would that work? My SAE amp has no gain controls :???:

[Thatch_Ear]

Ancient I would guess. I have 9 ICs running out of the player 3 of which are for the progressive scan pic for the TV.
Here is how I have it set up.
2 Ch has 2 going to Tape Monitor on Marantz 2226B being used as preamp for stereo signal for the dual subs when listening to music.
Front has 2 going to 300B amp for stereo music and for the front channels.
Rear has 2 going to Marantz 2258B that drive Altecs in back of the room.
Center has 1 out to split going into Fisher tube integrated running pair of Shahinians for center.
Sub has 1 going to split to Aux on Marantz 2226B
Marantz 2226B has 2 going to Carver M400 that drives pair of isobaric subs. Always set on Aux if you push in Tape Monitor button you get stereo for music, out is just Aux that has split mono subwoofer from DVD for movies.
300B, 2226B and Carver M400 are always on when system is on. 2258B and Fisher tube integrated are on only for movies.
It works great. You just need to think about how you will run a sub or 2 and how you want to work out your center channel. Your fronts and rears are ready as they sit.

[VinylHanger]

Thatch, which DVD player are you using?

[THOR]

I think I will try for a Denon HT reciever with the pre outs in the $300-$400 range for several reasons

#1 I think the volume control thing would drive me crazy and I need a remote cuz when the woman bitches at me to turn it down I don't want to have to try and adjust 5 different volume controls, and I am bitched at quite often to turn stuff down now as it is ;)

#2 I don't want to have to get another amp just to run my center channel(s) (whatever that may be).

I think in the end just spending a little extra money now will just make things easier and more convenient in the future and in the end be worth it.

Thanks everyone for your help!

[Thatch_Ear]

VH, a Phillips 962SA that I just bought, but I did the exact same thing with a Toshiba that came out when DTS did. So same basic setup with gear but the exact same setup with the audio ICs.
Thor, how do you control the SAE now? Do your stricty power amps have more than one set of inputs or are you going to have to run this thru your preamps anyway. You will still end up using the same amount of ICs and will have 2 machines that do surround sound. But it is your money.

[Toasted Almond]

Thor,

Thatch doesn't want to conform. Understandable, neither do I. That's why I have a two-channel home theater system.

While what you're doing is technically 5.1 Thatch, it's a mess. If the dvd player has variable output, some decent power amps without input level controllers will work just fine. If the dvd player doesn't have variable output, some power amps WITH input level controls would work just as well. $100K will buy all Sunfire surround equipment, with about $50K left over. Personally, I think I would go with the Sunfire rather than some of the stuff you mentioned. BUT THAT'S JUST ME! If I had $50k to throw at HT, I'd be doing pretty good no?

Thor,

A DAC is NOT the same thing as a Dolby Digital decoder! Almost all mid-priced dvd players have a Dolby Digital decoder onboard. The one you linked to, the Memorex, has RCA outputs for each channel as well. I'm not sure I would limit myself to a Memorex machine. Investigate other manufacturers offerings. Memorex made the worst recording tape, can't help but think they would make a fairly poor performing dvd player (not that Memorex actually MADE the machine, I have never seen Memorex attach their name to a QUALITY piece of electronics).

You need to research this a lot more, and NOT BUY ANYTHING unless you're getting help from a knowledgeable friend (perhaps to the point of going to the store with you).

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

[THOR]

Thatch right now all four of my amps are controlled with a stereo pre amp.


TA I have been corresponding with Lefty and Ward's on this HT stuff and will be sure to ask more questions but since there is a Denon dealer in my area I think I will be going with something like this:
Front

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/photo.asp?s=home&p=AVR%2D2802&f=avr2802front%2Ejpg&c=2

Back
http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/photo.asp?s=home&p=AVR%2D2802&f=2802+rear%2Ejpg&c=2

If you check out the back view you can see the pre amp outs.

[JonTee]

Thatch, I'm familiar with that approach as I have done that with my dvd before I went to Dolby-II and DTS-ES. The dvd dac puts out Dolby-prologic at the analog IC's and DB-II and DTS on bitstream op's.

It's a personal liking (as most audio is), but, I prefer the convenience and improved (again IMHO) theater sound and effects of the the new formats. Additionally, my receiver can be reprogrammed for any new formats (via a RS232C port) that may come out in the future.

Believe me, guys, I'm not a huge fan of digital, but, if you find the right component (processor, receiver, whatever), it may be adapted to whatever you have and provide many convenient features. Oh, and it won' t cost $5K either.

jt:D

[Toasted Almond]

Thor,

I'm confident you won't get a bum steer from either Lefty or Ward.

That Denon will probably do the job for you, either by itself, or by going to external power amps via the pre-outs. Just stay within the manufacturers impedance ratings, and you MAY NOT require the external power amps.

It has been MY experience, that once the movie gets involving from a storyline aspect, the sonics take a back seat. This may not be true for movies with a lot of special effects. I'm not a real special effects kind of guy, just give me a good movie with good actors, and a not too preposterous story line.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

[TIC]

Thor,

You can easily integrate HT into your current 2-channel system. As long as the HT receiver you purchase has pre-outs for at least the Front L&R channels, you will be fine.

Simply run interconnects fron the Front L&R pre-outs of the HT receiver to an unused input on your current 2-channel setup. Connect the surround speakers, center channel and HT LFE subwoofer to the HT receivers outputs.

When you want 2-channel music, simply play your system as you always have. For HT, select the input that you used for HT receiver Front L&R inputs, turn on the HT receiver and play the HT source (DVD Player) which is connected to the HT receiver via a digital cable (optical or coax).

The only consideration in this setup is that you must turn the 2-channel systems volume level to a pre-configured point (maybe T.D.C.) before you calibrate the volume levels AND everytime you use it.


This is really not very complicated and I have used this type of setup in numerous different systems that I have set up over the years. There is one "feature" that simplifies things a bit: If your pre-amp has an HT bypass/processor loop, it makes setup a bit easier because it "bypasses" the volume control, etc. and the HT receivers output is connected directly to the 2-channel systems amps.

I hope this helps. If you are confused about how to do this or what is required, let me know via PM or e-mail.

Enjoy,

TIC

[THOR]

Thanks TIC that was kinda what I was thinking reading it makes it easier to imagine.

TA I HAVE to use my amps at least for the CV's I doubt I will be getting one of the Denons that are like 160 wpc and I guarantee you that even if I did 160 watts won't work on the bottoms of my CV's.

The only blurry part I gotta figure out is I plan on plugging the amps that run the bottoms into the sub outs on the HT reciever, the tops of the CV's will be the fronts and the bottoms the subs, but I gotta figure out how to hook everything up so that the CV's are bi amped through the pre amp for stereo music listening.

On the upside I did recently acquire a CV 450 wpc amp and I am thinking of perhaps using it down the road in some sort of sub woofer application to free up my CV bottoms so they can just be part of the fronts in HT applications.

[michael w]

Originally posted by Toasted Almond
You need a home theater receiver to do that 5.1 and 6.1 stuff (or at least a preamp/decoder). BUT, you raise a question I have had since 5.1's infancy. WHY NOT have a dvd player with decoder, AND output level control? This way all you would need to do is have a dvd player and some power amps. Shit, even if the output levels were of fixed intensity, you could still get power amps that had INPUT level controls, and remove the HT receiver from the equation.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF


Some DVD players have exactly those facilities.

The biggest bugaboo is that the decoder chipsets and volume controls used in such integrated players are of inferior quality to those found in a full blown HT receiver. Plus this type of player is often also less flexible when it comes to system setup.


cheerio

[michael w]

Thor;

You can avoid all the messy setups mentioned previously by forgetting about getting an HT receiver and just get a decent HT preamp/processor, then hook that up to your existing amplifiers.

A no fuss solution that will make for an easier to operate system and one that can handle all your sources etc.

Plus a decent pre/pro is also likely to sound better with music than your existing preamp and will have full remote control.


cheerio

[Thatch_Ear]

I will put this point out just one more time. When you buy your DVD player it will have a Digital Analog Converter (DAC) in it. It will have a DTS chip in it. It will have Dolby Digital in it. It will have everything in it a HT surround reciever has in but the amp and preamp section. If you have a preamp to run your amps you can use ICs and leave out what ever it is your thinking of buying. It will not cause any degradation in sound quality. The only thing you will be getting that is an improvement is the ability to adjust the volume quickly with a remote control. I looked into this very carefully and went to a lot of stores and listened to a lot of installations and found none of them to be superior over using the analog outputs from the DVD player and vintage gear. I know it seems improbable but everything as far as decoding etc that can be done by a HT reciever or integrated is done by the DVD player. When you use a link (it is only an IC) to the HT gear you just bipass what is in the player, or in other words you are buying the same thing twice.
TA, you use stereo gear for movies. Do you have a HT reciever between your DVD and your preamp? I know you are not doing surround but it is the same idea. Can you think of any center channel speaker that is anywhere close in quality as your pair of Carver Amazing Platinums? That is where I am coming from. If you have good amps and good speakers that can do justice to Holst's Mars then it will do a better than good job for movies. The sky is the limit if you know how to cobble systems together and it does not take a lot of money to do it.
A HTR is just another piece of stuff in the loop if you are planning on using the speakers and amps you already own and is for the most part redundant since it will not have any funtions besides a few hall effects programs that are not already present in the DVD player.
You will be in effect be buying an expensive remote, nothing more.

[THOR]

Michael I have looked at the pre amp route and I am not having any luck finding any Dolby digital DTS 5.1 ones that aren't way outta my price limit. Decoders also seem scarce but I would consider that route if I could find a reasonably priced one that did everything I need, the ones I have found are for adding 5.1 DTS and upgrading existing Pro Logic system.

Thatch the volume isuue is a huge one for me since 3 of my amps have gain knobs and one doesn't. Would just be to hard to have to pause the movie and then go adjust 4 or 5 volume controls when my GF tells me to turn it down. Also I would have to buy another amp for the center channel.

[michael w]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear
I will put this point out just one more time. When you buy your DVD player it will have a Digital Analog Converter (DAC) in it. It will have a DTS chip in it. It will have Dolby Digital in it. It will have everything in it a HT surround reciever has in but the amp and preamp section. If you have a preamp to run your amps you can use ICs and leave out what ever it is your thinking of buying. It will not cause any degradation in sound quality.
<snip>
You will be in effect be buying an expensive remote, nothing more.

Not totally true.

All DVD players do have a DAC that decodes Dolby Digital
BUT not all players have DTS capability or have the necessary analog outputs that allow you to hookup your 5.1 channels directly to amplifiers.

A quick look at the rear panel can confirm this.
If you see analog outputs for L, R, C, LS, RS and LFE or Woofer then your player can be directly hooked to amps; if not then you need a processor.


cheerio

[michael w]

Hi Thor,

I've had a hunt around the usual sources and can't find a suitable pre/pro. within your budget.

Your original intention of using a AVR with preamp outs is a good one.

The cheaper Denons don't have full preouts for all channels.

The 2802 you posted the link to does have full pre outs but is a lot more expensive at $799.

Isn't that over budget ?


cheerio

[THOR]

I have seen it for sale online for around $400. I am calling the Denon guy in town today to see what he has. Of he doesn't have anything in my budget I will be hitting the bay ;)

[THOR]

Well the Denon guy in town is only selling his stuff for about 10% Denon's list prices so I will either be going the ebay route or shopping online. I already have my eye on one ;)

[ckelly]

Thor

Check out this HT Preamp

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3014124698&category=14974

Chris

[THOR]

That only does prologic to get digital dts 5.1 you need to add another $200 decoder :(

[Thatch_Ear]

I guess I said it wrong. Any new quality DVD will have the decoding capability of a dedicated HT unit.
Thor, you will be using the speakers in the TV for your center channel I imagine since the WAF is involved so strongly. If so you will really need to get a sub but a low priced powered one should do the job for you.
Hint,.....when Julia is at home she usually watches the movie with me so I get her to sit down and approve of the volume levels after the movie itself gets going. You actually have to wait till the movie is going because the lion and shit is often louder than the soundtrack. And hey, if it is that big of a deal to her you will not be watching Lord of the Rings when she is at home anyway.
How do you get away with listening to music the way you claim to around there? Just wondering.

[THOR]

I think I wanna go with seperate speakers for the center channel, from what I read while the TV can act as the center reviewers say a seperate center is better. I am thinking of using a pair of Paradigm Titans for my center channel. I am thinking I will end up with a decent Dolby digital DTS 5.1 or 6.1 HT reciever with pre amp outputs for between $200 - $300, so it is well worth it for ease of use, a remote and being able to drive the front and rear centers with the HT reciever meaning I don't gotta buy no more amps, actually I could probably drive my rears (altec model 15's) with it too if I had to so that if one of my four amps ever develop a problem I can switch amps around so that I will always have 3 amps for the CV's, which really need them.

My woman loves loud music, especially when the liquor is flowing but she hates loud TV volumes and always is yelling for me to turn it down. I used to have a little HT setup back before I got into audio like I have and I could only ever use it when she was not home. So I eventually sold or traded all of it.

I am now pretty left to own devices during the days on Saturday, Sunday and Monday so those will be my "HT" days ;)

[michael w]

Thor,

If you have seen the 2802 for $400 , buy it.

Even though superseded, it is a great AVR.

Stay away from that old Parasound though, no DD/DTS plus suspect reliability, the Denon is a much better bet.


cheerio

[THOR]

I could have one for $400 right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3014325024&category=14981

But I am trying to see what I can find for a little less first I am hoping to score a 2801 for $200 ;)