Although I have been an integrated amp guy for most of my audio life, I have wondered how interconnects between and amp and preamp would differ from those you would use between a source and the preamp. Would there be anything different between them? Different requirements? Different things to look for?
Enquiring minds want to know....

As always, shorter is better. You can buy good used ICs on Audiogon for less than half of new. Have found that there can be a big difference between the sound of ICs. Others think not. If possible, see if you can get a local stereo shop to let you audio some good ICs in your system. They may ask you to buy them with a full refund guarantee. Just write it specifically on the sales receipt. Did that with my first set of good ICs as I was also a sceptic. No longer. YMMV.

As always, shorter is better. You can buy good used ICs on Audiogon for less than half of new. Have found that there can be a big difference between the sound of ICs. Others think not. If possible, see if you can get a local stereo shop to let you audio some good ICs in your system. They may ask you to buy them with a full refund guarantee. Just write it specifically on the sales receipt. Did that with my first set of good ICs as I was also a sceptic. No longer. YMMV.

Hey, I agree with all you are saying, and your advice is excellent. I may not have been really clear, but my thoughts were more of a comparison between an interconnect you would use for something like a cd to pre-amp, as compared to what you would use from a pre-amp to an amplifier. More a theoretical discussion than anything else.

I prefer to use the same cable throughout the system. If not the same cable then at least the same family. I have the same cable type from my phono cartridge through the tonearm then between tonearm and phono preamp>>preamp>>>amp>>> speakers. There are obviously some cables that can be used as expensive tone controls but mine a very neutral so I prefer to focus on matching so I have got no bottlenecks.

for most of the gear out there it's a pandora's box you're opening up lol. there are so many possible combinations and differences between metals, stranded, solid wire and shielded/unshielded that can be heard on some systems. getting the right combination is the tough part of the puzzle. manufacturers such as naim design and supply their own ic's ( they actually listen to the stuff) taking out the risk factor for their customers.

to my knowledge, source ic's and the ones you would connect to the pre/amp combo should be pretty close. i would connect the best cable on the source of course if there were a choice to be made (excluding tuna).

now if you're fine tuning (voicing) your system, picking the right ic is the hard part. you simply have to try some out. if you find the right ic, your system can shine. i have like 5 sets of ic's sitting around.

i'm not gonna get into details, i'll get ripped at hard enough as it is! :) but i'll just add that any system is source dependant, if your source is average, don't waste your time lol. solid cable doesn't sound like stranded, shielded is different too and silver/copper are very different sounding. you have to trust your ears and make a choice that suits your tastes. i'll say it again, the most expensive is not necessarily the best sounding in your gear! i'll always put the best stuff on the source ( best is not necessarily the most $$$) !

dog', NOBODY gets ripped in this forum. Many, myself included, are interested in what others have to say about cables, among other subjects.

Please, post away.

(Well, you may get ripped, but it won't be left standing, just a temporary thing.)

for most of the gear out there it's a pandora's box you're opening up lol. there are so many possible combinations and differences between metals, stranded, solid wire and shielded/unshielded that can be heard on some systems. getting the right combination is the tough part of the puzzle. manufacturers such as naim design and supply their own ic's ( they actually listen to the stuff) taking out the risk factor for their customers.

to my knowledge, source ic's and the ones you would connect to the pre/amp combo should be pretty close. i would connect the best cable on the source of course if there were a choice to be made (excluding tuna).

now if you're fine tuning (voicing) your system, picking the right ic is the hard part. you simply have to try some out. if you find the right ic, your system can shine. i have like 5 sets of ic's sitting around.

i'm not gonna get into details, i'll get ripped at hard enough as it is! :) but i'll just add that any system is source dependant, if your source is average, don't waste your time lol. solid cable doesn't sound like stranded, shielded is different too and silver/copper are very different sounding. you have to trust your ears and make a choice that suits your tastes. i'll say it again, the most expensive is not necessarily the best sounding in your gear! i'll always put the best stuff on the source ( best is not necessarily the most $$$) !

Dog----Your comments have been about the MOST germane and succinct comments on cable interaction I have read on this forum subsequent to joining. You hit the nail squarely on the head period

You are correct to state if your source is average crapola (Which is most of the MOR gear from japan circa 70s-80s-today) with a handfull of pricey exceptions and niche companies, then you wasting your time stepping up the level of your IC's.

However, if you are able to discern subtle changes, then stay within the same family of cables, ie (cardas, Nordost, Goertz,AudioQuest, Kimber(as I have done) at least in the early part of your cable journey. Become familiar with the vagaries of your system, learn its shortcomings. Then and only then venture out into the next level of $$$ cables. All too often folks change their gear & cables so frequently as to never to fully hearing anything. By doing this, they will never be satisifed because they fail to have the full measure of their system. Their going in every direction at once!

Should you be among the more fortunate folks with gear that has resolution ability to display the effects various type of cables design, philosophy, manufacture, Then by all means jump in, the waters fine!

I have pissed away the $$ equivalent of 3-4 Mark Levinson complete systems over the course of my audio life and a good deal of that by not being patient and learning to listen. Ergo my signature---"I used to listen to the numbers,--now I listen to the music"

I'd say, pick an IC that works well for your source>preamp, and use the same one preamp>amp. I mean, the input stages on your preamp are probably very similar to the input stages on your amp, and the output stages in your source are very similar to the output stages in your preamp. The preamp is just another source, baby!

There is no technical reason to make the ICs different from one use to the other.

peace,
sam

I tend to lean in the direction of the best IC for my amp/preamp first (of'course you need
something good between your source and preamp to get the signal to the preamp first)

As was said, best does not mean most expensive or even expensive for that matter.
There are still a lot of people who won't try the outdoor lighting wire for speaker cable
because it isn't a "boutique item with a more then cheap pricetag".

I may not have been really clear, but my thoughts were more of a comparison between an interconnect you would use for something like a cd to pre-amp, as compared to what you would use from a pre-amp to an amplifier. More a theoretical discussion than anything else.I use the same ICs throughout. Always the same thinking. Shorter the better. Have not read anything about using different ICs in different positions, other than the phono input, where you want to keep the capacitance down to unload the same signal from the cartridge (especially from an MC). But, different ICs have different sound, so you may wish to experiment if you have different ICs available. And, it is your ears. If one sounds better to you in one position than the other, then that is the right position for that set of ICs.

If you had several interconnects, one clearly better than the others, and you weren't planning on purchasing any more, then I'd put the best one between the preamp and the amp, because everything you listen to will go through that IC. If you put the good IC on the CD>preamp connection, then you'd only be passing the signal through the good one when you listened to CD, and not when you listened to vinyl, or the R2R, or whatever.

So its not a technical reason, persay, but a practical one, if you have a limited number of ICs.

peace,
sam

I have pissed away the $$ equivalent of 3-4 Mark Levinson complete systems over the course of my audio life and a good deal of that by not being patient and learning to listen. Ergo my signature---"I used to listen to the numbers,--now I listen to the music"

Where were you five years ago when I needed your advice?

;)

Some equipment was "voiced" with certain wires. For example, vintage McIntosh was voiced with basic copper wire which is all they had back then.

As well, it is very system dependant. I had a "close to perfect" set up once and then I changed my speakers. Great speakers (better than before) but now my wiring has to be changed.

I wish Grover would send me those UR6. wires already !

IMHO, the most "delicate" or important connection is between a pre and amp. It's a bad idea to insert an equalizer (or anything, actually) between the pre and amp. Instead, run the EQ through a tape loop! That way you can switch it in and out of the circuit any time you want to.

gary, sorry but i disagree on this one :)! your source extracts the signal, not the preamp. if you connect the lesser ic to the source component, it may mask information and there is no way the preamp can unveil it, it just isn't there anymore. the preamp is no more than a control center, it just passes the signal along whereas a cdp or a tt extract that information ( that we pay a small fortune for ) and direct it towards the preamp: if anything is veiled, masked or even botched up, that signal is headed to the pre's inputs and along the path. there is a saying in audio that's been used before : " garbage in, garbage out ". if you are going to err on a set-up, make sure the error (or weak link) is closer to the end of that path (ie. the speaker). this is why i find very disturbing the comments made that you build a good system based on speakers first or amplifiers first. these are "literally passive components" that are fed by a source component, not the other way around! your system is only as good as the signal you feed it. the quickest way that i know of upgrading a system's musical attributes is to have an understanding that a cdp reads a cd (not amp or speakers) and that a tt/arm/cart extract the signal off the groove. if you upgrade these root components, the rest of the system benifits greatly as a better signal is fed right through the chain. it can turn your very ordinary amp/speaker combo into a stellar performer!!!

just my 0.02 cents

I partly disagree with almost everything said so far. How like me, eh?

The first thing you have to determine is lengths of cable. Generally, you're better off placing the amp near the speakers with very short speaker cables. After that, you wind up with long lengths of interconnect cable between the pre and the amp.

These long lengths (mine are 6m) need to be the best quality you can afford, in terms of low resistance, capacitance, inductance, and high shielding etc.

The much shorter ICs between the source and the preamp are important, but won't have nearly the effect that the long ones have. It's generally true that if you can manage 0.5m lengths, cables are much less important. If you can use balanced cables, the differences get even smaller.

Now, if you ignore the short-speaker-cable rule, then the pre to amp cable might be as short as the source cables, in which case the preceding posts make sense. I think that line level ICs are not as critical as those that come after the preamp's volume control, because there is the potential for very small signals there, well below line level. Either way, if you go that route, you have to spend more on long speaker cables. :D

gary, sorry but i disagree on this one :)! your source extracts the signal, not the preamp. if you connect the lesser ic to the source component, it may mask information and there is no way the preamp can unveil it, it just isn't there anymore.

This makes perfect sense! :tresbon:

Merci!

Although I just have to disagree with you about skating dogs.... :no:


;)

btw, i do agree with you about the EQ bit, wise advice :)!

best IC between source and pre, and shorter is better (hear that ladies!).

Also, I like to use a silver IC between source and pre, and then copper between pre and amp. Combines the best of both worlds.

I partly disagree with almost everything said so far. How like me, eh?

The first thing you have to determine is lengths of cable. Generally, you're better off placing the amp near the speakers with very short speaker cables. After that, you wind up with long lengths of interconnect cable between the pre and the amp.

These long lengths (mine are 6m) need to be the best quality you can afford, in terms of low resistance, capacitance, inductance, and high shielding etc.

The much shorter ICs between the source and the preamp are important, but won't have nearly the effect that the long ones have. It's generally true that if you can manage 0.5m lengths, cables are much less important. If you can use balanced cables, the differences get even smaller.

Now, if you ignore the short-speaker-cable rule, then the pre to amp cable might be as short as the source cables, in which case the preceding posts make sense. I think that line level ICs are not as critical as those that come after the preamp's volume control, because there is the potential for very small signals there, well below line level. Either way, if you go that route, you have to spend more on long speaker cables. :D


I agree with short speaker runs, what about long balance runs from the amp to the preamp?

I agree with short speaker runs, what about long balance runs from the amp to the preamp?

I think that for long runs, balanced is definitely the way to go. This is an easy statement, but in practice, most gear doesn't have balanced connectors. This is especially true of vintage gear, because balanced connections have only been in widespread use recently.

In my experience, the biggest difference with changing interconnects in my system happens between my pre and power amps. There was very little apparent difference between CD player and preamp.
I expected a different outcome and was glad I tested my hypothesis by changing the pre-power connection. My CD player and preamp are a CAL CL-10 and McIntosh C712. Their relative impedences are well matched regardless of the interconnect in use.
CD players put out a really big signal. The preamp is mainly used to attenuate the input so that the amp isn't running at max output continuously. Comparatively, the signal output from the preamp is miniscule. I think that's why the pre-power connection is so audibly sensitive to cable changes.

Any material equally capable of conducting electrons across 3 inches or so should do. If you had considered hemp rope or something, that would be a bad idea. :) I'd seen a suggestion here before about modifing one's spouse's 24k gold earing into a jumper........... -sf