"Refurbished" vintage - What's it worth to ya?

[phidauex]

Here's a question...

Recently we've been seeing lots and lots more vintage gear on the auction sites and elsewhere, and a consequent rise in prices at thrift shops and garage sales. However, even though the amount of riff-raff has increased, there are still people looking for the best gear possible, not just something that 'basically works'.

I've seen several pieces of gear sell recently that were 'refurbished'. IE, electrolytic caps replaced, bulbs replaced, fully cleaned and polished, given a full check, bias and offset adjusted, etc. These units sold for a LOT more than their 'straight from the yard sale' breatheren.

How much is that service worth to YOU? If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service?

peace,
sam

[zosoisme]

Here's a question...

Recently we've been seeing lots and lots more vintage gear on the auction sites and elsewhere, and a consequent rise in prices at thrift shops and garage sales. However, even though the amount of riff-raff has increased, there are still people looking for the best gear possible, not just something that 'basically works'.

I've seen several pieces of gear sell recently that were 'refurbished'. IE, electrolytic caps replaced, bulbs replaced, fully cleaned and polished, given a full check, bias and offset adjusted, etc. These units sold for a LOT more than their 'straight from the yard sale' breatheren.

How much is that service worth to YOU? If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service?

peace,
sam

sam, I've bought equipment both ways, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut the "just serviced" items really depend ( to me anyway) on who did them..... I've asked if they have receipts/invoices and such for this work....sometimes yes, sometimes lots of stammerin' and stutterin'... just gotta feel through, but if the works been done "right" and verified, that's cool and i will and have pay the longer dollar there....

[tom1356]

These are two different customers. Some want to and are able to do the work themselves. Others can't or wont do the work. I seldom see a restoration that really pays off for the restorer. A lot of money and work goes into a proper restoration.
In my opinion a well restored piece is usually a bargain.
I'm in the process of restoring a pair of Mcintosh MC30's. I will never recoup the restoration costs plus my time on resale, and the MC30's are very simple amps.
Wait...why am I doing this again...?

[gamalot]

I think it is a waste of time and money unless you plan to keep the unit for your own personal use.

You will seldom be rewarded for your time and efforts and the few would be willing to pay the price.

Typically a G 8000 goes for around $300. Send it out to a good tech and spend a couple hundred more getting it really "Refurbished".
Then try to sell it and you will have members from here PMing you with offers of $250.

Ask any of our local techs what they charge to rebuild driver boards, recap and replace trim pots and transistors and then bench test it under full load, the cost gets up there quite fast.

I would reserve the "Refurbishing" for units you like and plan to keep for your own peace of mind.

Gary

[Mark W.]

It's a matter of scale for me. Sure I would like to buy only completely restored perfectly working units. But then it would be a very long time inbetween purchases. I prefer to buy working now units that when and as I can afford I would have tuned up or if warrented completely reburbished. In my system I will most likely have my Amp Pioneer SA-9100 and Tuner TX-9100 completely restored while other units I'll have more minor work done. That way I can enjoy the unit for now and when I can afford it have it worked on. There by splitting the cost of a refurbished unit.

So for me the deal/price is very important

[fabvsix]

I just had EchoWars completely "overhaul" my beloved Sansui G9000 ! I paid top dollar and plan on keeping it for years to come.... :banana: :music:

[phidauex]

Well, here is an example, a forum member recently recapped their Kenwood KA-9100, and then ended up needing to sell it (though that wasn't his original intent). It ended up fetching quite a bit more on ebay than normal KA-9100s, even though it wasn't done by a 'certified tech'.

Now, I'm not planning on just recapping everything before I sell it or anything, but I do have some gear that I've done significant repairs and upgrades on, and I'm curious how that changes the value in some people's minds.. Of course, you'd have to pry my upgraded Phase Linear out of my cold dead hands, so the point is moot, it just makes me curious.

How many of these brands still have 'certified techs' who know the vintage gear?

peace,
sam

[hpsenicka]

"Keepers" are likely worthy of investment in restoration/rejuvenation.

However... I think I would prefer to acquire a stock working unit, and make my own decisions regarding restoration/rejuvenation rather than trusting work of unknown or unverifiable origin.

For me, part of the satisfaction is experiencing the transformation of an ordinary sounding piece of gear into something special.

Most AKer's are well aware that not all techs have the same high standards of workmanship.

[phidauex]

For me, part of the satisfaction is experiencing the transformation of an ordinary sounding piece of gear into something special.

Most AKer's are well aware that not all techs have the same high standards of workmanship.

Do you think the "I'd rather do it myself" attitude is one unique to AKers and those like us? Are we in the minority? Are there people who pine for vintage gear, but expect it to work perfectly out of the box so they don't have to worry about it?

As to the standards of workmanship.. You are definately correct. I try to emulate EchoWars, but I can only get so far! Even his perf-board hacks look great.

peace,
sam

[fabvsix]

Could you accomplish this on your own?



The receiver clipped at 208WPC @ 0.5% THD. At the rated 160WPC, THD+N measured 0.0065%, which is way the hell down there. That figure is feeding the signal through the preamp also...no cheating by feeding only the amp. Not too shabby... J

:banana: :banana:

[Holst]

I've bought new, bought used, bought used and bought "Refurbished". There are up sides to all of them. My best popular auction site "score" was a McIntosh amp that I got for a great price, great communication and arrived packed well enough for a landing on Mars. It's a keeper.
The pre-amp I bought from the same site at the same time proved not to be. Neither did the tuner.
So for the keeper pre I went last summer to Tom and Terry at mcintoshaudio.com, yes I shelled out 650 bucks for a over 25 preamp, but the damn thing is still under warrenty. My take was that at the price it cost less than most new pre's and was a far better unit than any of them.

[hpsenicka]

Do you think the "I'd rather do it myself" attitude is one unique to AKers and those like us? Are we in the minority? Are there people who pine for vintage gear, but expect it to work perfectly out of the box so they don't have to worry about it?

As to the standards of workmanship.. You are definately correct. I try to emulate EchoWars, but I can only get so far! Even his perf-board hacks look great.

peace,
sam

Sorry.. I didn't meant to imply that I intended to do the actual work myself... only that I would prefer to have control over the process.

I want to be able to consult with a technician that I respect and trust, and have a discussion about what work is required, which of the available mods may be worthwhile/affordable, etc.

My own technical skills don't go much deeper than cleaning controls with DeoxIT, reading a DVM, and maybe adjusting DC offset.

[gamalot]

Any one who is foolish enough to think they can go out and buy a 25 - 30 year old Vintage unit that is working perfectly and will continue to do so for long is only fooling himself.
The simple laws of averages and physics has to catch up with electronics at some point in time and none of it is designed to last indeffinately.
The trick is to find the keeper and then spend the money to keeper going!

Gary

[fabvsix]

This is common sense.....If you were to buy a 1965 mustang that has been garaged by granny with low miles, do you think you could just buy and drive the hell out of it to 100,000 miles with no issue........I think not........it will need to be serviced at the least......

[SansuiSamRI]

This is a very interesting post for me to read. I have opinions on the subject. Being a tech, I prefer to buy gear that may have a problem. I want it to look good, minimum scratches, and no missing knobs or parts. I can fix it myself and do the restore. It's OK if it blows fuses, has distortion, or a bad channel. I believe in the final product being QUALITY, not the QUANTITY of gear I collect. Too often I see people buy vintage, then bitch about their repair bill. WTF were you thinking when you bought it? Or they think they can fix it themselves. For true collectors, it makes sense to buy and pay extra for a restored unit.

Now as far as a 'certified tech', well, there really isn't a certification process that they go through for vintage. It's doubful that any one working on vintage gear was ever certified when the product was new. Qualified, yes, certified, no.

Hope you guys enjoy the vintage gear you've got. Take great care of it.

[pustelniakr]

I only deal in gear that is in the upper end of its particular spectrum. There is no margin the the lower end stuff. I cannot, in good conscience, sell gear that is not up to spec. All my gear is restored, rather that refurbished, to a greater or lesser degree. I pride myself, in providing 25+ year-old gear that is as close to new, in appearance and function, as is possible.

Most of my gear goes through the full monte, including recap (no mods, unless specifically requested by the potential customer). My stuff does NOT go for ePay prices, so it does not go fast. In the long run, it is less expensive to buy one of my fully restored units, than to by an ePay special, and send it to me for restoration. I would say that the savings are around 20%-25%.

Most of us that do real restorations, do not get anywhere near what the work is actually worth. I average about $0.75 per hour (yes, I said $0.75 per hour). We do it for love and a sence of accomplishment. Also, we would never put all that effort into a piece and then ship it in inadequate packaging. Also, even at what we get for our work, restoration is NOT cheap.

Concerning receipts for all the parts...Sorry, I don't do onesy-twosey parts purchases, and there is no way to prove labor time. The proof is in the pudding itself. That applies to certification of "techsmanship". You want to know if the work is any good? Look in the feedback forum.

Now...Is the work worth it? It is, if you want a unit that actually does what it was designed to do, up to the level(s) it was designed to do it to. If you want pretty, get an ePay special, deluxe. If you want pretty and full functionality, buy a fully restored unit, or an epay special,deluxe, then invest in the restoration. Just because a unit works, does not mean you really know how good it is supposed to sound. After 25-30 years in the barn, you would not expect to get in a Masserati, and fire it up, and race off into the sunset, without a bit of tender-loving-care administered to her, if only for safety's sake.

There! For 2 cents, you get alot of schpiel.

Rich P

[carolinabirdman]

I recently bought a MAC 4100 which had ben re-done by Terry in Chatanooga. I was very happy to pay extra for this piece. The work was well documented, the reciever couldn't be better and I was ready to pay more than the seller was asking for it.

[seadzz]

IMost of us that do real restorations, do not get anywhere near what the work is actually worth. I average about $0.75 per hour (yes, I said $0.75 per hour). We do it for love and a sence of accomplishment. Also, we would never put all that effort into a piece and then ship it in inadequate packaging. Also, even at what we get for our work, restoration is NOT cheap.

Exactly "spot on" as some folks say. The work is done for the love of the technology and out of respect for the folks that did the original design work. In many cases I view the "build quality" almost as artwork and by dismembering and renewing these units you can gain some sense of understanding of the thought process that went into the product....much of this is a lost art today.

Think back, much of this vintage gear was designed by folks using slide rulers....been there seen that. It is remarkable they got to the fit and finish level they did given the tools of the day. Laying out PCB's without the benefit of a PC??? That my friend is work.

In any event most of us work on this gear for the love of the “chase”. I'm 100% sure others when its all said and done do not do this for the money. Heck when you look at what capacitors cost at our buying levels, factor in freight and overhead we would need to charge $140 per hour for our time if the intent was to make any money. Based on my experience doing a recap (electrolytic only) on a given amp takes at least 8 hours and can take twice that or more if you have not worked on a given model before. Since you tend to figure out things as you go along with a recap the process tends to be real inefficient. You also need to factor in the ah @!#%(*& that happens when you bust a diode or some odd transistor in the process.

To address the OP's question I think some folks purchase equipment that has been reconditioned with the expectation of fewer problems down the road. I know when I do a ebay purchase that I "set the bar" real low. If the unit arrives with the power cord intact and powers up I consider that fantastic. If it actually works too....well that is a miracle and I expect it to crap out at any minute (9 out of 10 times it will).

I will say that the quality of gear being offered for sale at ebay has not kept pace with it's asking price. I saw a few instances where folks were posting a "opening price" on a Sansui in the $280 range with BIN prices near $400. That my dear readers is pure )(&^!@#. Of course they make reference that the unit has been checked by their "tech" and all is cleaned and adjusted. That is ebay lingo for someone turned the unit upside down, shook all the mice and dead birds out then Windexed the case.

sdz

[krazyknuc]

I have not posted this news yet, but I am currently in the process of purchasing a Marantz 2325 from a local stereo shop that has had the unit in there for 3 years for repair (completed long ago, owner never came back to get it :smoke: :D ) and the shop has decided to sell it to me for $500 Canadian.
Now, it's not perfect cosmetically, has a few scratches, most of which will be covered by the wood case I plan to purchase for it somewhere down the road.
All lights and fuctions work as they should and I performed the only "field' test I know of, dc offset, and it was about 16 mV and 27 mV +/-.
I explained that while that was within "acceptable" limits I was hoping it could be adjusted to as close to zero as possible, definately below 15 +/- and gave them our website in case they had any questions they waqnted to research regarding the dc offset and bias or replacing the trim pots etc. and they agreed to take a look at that for me when their most experienced tech is in this Friday.
For me, this is the ultimate receiver I will ever purchase (ok.....along with the Sony 7800SD, Pioneer SX-838, etc. I already have ...you get the picture) and I really appreciate the time these guys are willing to take.
For this receiver, the price is lower than these usually go for in
American $$$ on epay.
Not to mention that I believe I have found an honorable repair shop for the 6 or so pieces (so far ..... come on spring, I can't wait for those garage sales to start up :D ) I am unable to fix with deoxit :D
Now I can stop irritating Echowars with my inability to perform/understand his repair advice. :thmbsp:
This is a super website, I can't thank all of you enough !!!

[Jovinyl]

I Only purchase what I am looking for to add to my system with the intention of having it restored and paying the cost. Though I will pick up something that looks interesting at S/A or G/W. with the intention of having it restored. I walk away from more things than I pick up. I would rather buy a "works good" and have it restored Than an online "restored, all lights work switches cleaned" unit unless that person has a reputation for restoration I can verify.

[gamalot]

There are a few members right here who Buy, Restore and Resell. You can find them in the business classifieds.
I think you could not go wrong with most of them. At least you could expect them to stand behind what they sell.
These auction sellers who had their tech check it out are almost always full of it and even if a tech ever did check it out, who knows if he had any clue what to look for.
I see it in my business all the time, any fool with a Pick up truck, hammer and skill saw can call himself a carpenter. I get to go in after they are done to make things right.
When I take my car or truck to the service station for repairs, I always have to check and see if they did it or did it right. If at all possible I would prefer to DIY and be sure it got done to the best of my ability.
My electronics get sent out. I always plan on additional expense and I always worry about damage from shipping.
I have all but given up with auctions because honor and integrity do not belong in the same sentence as Ebay.

Gary

[phidauex]

Could you accomplish this on your own?



The receiver clipped at 208WPC @ 0.5% THD. At the rated 160WPC, THD+N measured 0.0065%, which is way the hell down there. That figure is feeding the signal through the preamp also...no cheating by feeding only the amp. Not too shabby... J


I do have the ability to do harmonic distortion measurements, I've got a simple distortion analyzer. Unfortunately, about .1% is about as low as I can measure. Good enough to see if its close to spec at rated power output, and estimate distortion at clipping levels. Plus, the scope is handy for checking things like ringing, oscilliation, and asymmetrical clipping.

I'm not a fantastic tech, but I know what I can fix correctly, and what I can't (and that, I don't touch). If I don't think I can do it right, I don't do it, so my gear that is worked on by myself is generally in good shape, internally. I'm not one of those people who find the output relay not working, and just jumper over it. ;)

peace,
sam

[merrylander]

Any one who is foolish enough to think they can go out and buy a 25 - 30 year old Vintage unit that is working perfectly and will continue to do so for long is only fooling himself.
The simple laws of averages and physics has to catch up with electronics at some point in time and none of it is designed to last indeffinately.
The trick is to find the keeper and then spend the money to keeper going!

Gary


Well I supppose you could replace every component except for the hardware and power transformer, but why? For example, I just finished with a CR-1020 that a friend had shipped direct to me from the seller. I did the same rework on the 25 volt supplies that the CR-2020 Service Bulletin calls for. Plugged it in and heard the damndest hum I had ever heard. Threw the coupler switch and no hum - that cleared the power amps and the big filter caps. Now I could have recapped the whole 25 volt section but I simply bridged a 1000mfd 35V cap acroos the +25V, no difference. Bridged it across the -25V and the hum disappeared - but then it started motorboating. replaced the 2SD234 and a 2SA844 and the hum disappeared - recapping would not have done a thing for that problem. But then it could stop working next week, but that's the gamble. The CR-2020, the CR-2040 and CR-1000 here have not been recapped, they run 8 - 10 hours a day and have for several years in some cases.

Rob

[pustelniakr]

Recapping is not the panacea for modern man. Recapping is the last thing I do to a unit, other than cosmetic work and final/performance testing. I won't recap a unit, until I have determined that it is fully functional. Recapping is more for an attempt at adding longevity to the mix. The last thing you want is for a 30-year-old 'lytic to fail short (they also fail open, and drift out of spec). Recapping is not a good "repair" technique (falls in the realm of 'shotgun repair' which I hate).

I done alot of recapping, and I like to test the old ones every now and then, to see what their condition was. In general, I have found that they are not far off, just at or below the capacitance spec for the parts. I have found a few bad ones. What I add, with a recap, is a retouching of every solder joint on the affected circuit boards. Here is where the real problem is, in my experience: old, oxidized, fractured, and cold, joints that have failed. The life expectance for a wave soldered joint is right at 30 years. I have repaired more problems caused by bad PCB solder joints, than by bad 'lytic caps, by at least an order of magnitude. so, for me, the solder joint retouch is the more important aspect of my recapping service.

I do tend to use improved 'lytics in my recapping: 105 degC, low tan-theta, tighter tolerance, low ESR parts (original value and voltage), instead of the 85 degC, standard parts that were used back then. the price differencial is not that noticeable. the real cost in a recap, is the labor. And, at $0.75 per hour, it can really add up :D

You might get away without a recap for a very long time. But I like to include it on my stuff...

Rich P

[dew042]

I think I am coming into the realization that I only buy based on cosemetic condition as I will need to have it restored on my own terms anyway. That's tough deal because ebay descriptions are a crap shoot. I'd say less than 50% are anywhere close to advertised.

dew.

[Lefty]

I'm the buy it cheap at a thrift and do the repairs/upgrades myself kind of guy. It's kind of natural to me because electronics maintenance has been my job for 40 years, it's just that with the audio gear I get to enjoy the fruits of my labor rather then just how I support myself and family.

Lefty

[lorne]

This thread is VERY interesting. I read Rich's comments on recapping very carefully, and I noted his distaste of 'shotgun' refurbishing. All the personal preferences and approaches you guys have written are painting a realistic picture of what it means to collect and operate vintage audio.

Unrealistic expectations can get new collectors thinking that the vintage ride to sonic bliss is easy and even cheap. This state of affairs can never be corrected, but it could be retarded by threads such as this one. Any discussion of the pitfalls in vintage collecting is a good thing.

My opinion: any vintage unit without a well-known history could be a bag of snakes. Pristine looking units can begin making nasty noises within minutes after getting them home, whereas in the shop they seemed fine. Many of us must have stories to illustrate this.

My approach to acquiring vintage audio: a rock-bottom price for a unit that has a special interest for me due to its documented performance and its integrity as an example of industrial art. Good cosmetic condition is merely a bonus. Every part is suspect. A bus load of faith goes into hoping that the transformer/s and relays are in good condition. Yep, I pass by a lot of stuff.


Unlike some of you, I am not a knowledgeable technician. As much as I agree with Rich's distaste of shotgunning, I depend on it. I have shotgunned units in the past and have heard astonishing differences. I wish I could know which reforms made the most difference — fresh caps, or new solid state devices like transistors, diodes and regulators. Well, maybe some day with a little help from the AK community .... :sigh:

I once saw an early 1950's, classic Alfa Romeo being properly restored. The old saw about, "if you have to ask 'how much', then you can't afford it" aptly applied. Vintage audio is not in the same, stratospheric echelons, but the comparison should stand as a general warning anyway. Unless the collector is highly skilled, the only way to vintage certitude is to pay the right person to restore your unit.

All machines suffer from friction, heat, oxidation, chemical and physical breakdown and so on. And a ‘low milage’ amp carries the same promise of bugs and problems as a low milage auto. Our family once sold a vintage car. The new owner righteously declared that he would put it in storage and rarely drive it. We knew he was heading for disappointment. Likewise electronics can’t be stored with impunity; even new caps have a shelf life, and manufacturers put out specs to cover it. Vintage audio carries the same joys and sorrows as vintage anything. You just gotta love it.

[Jack Keck]

Here's a question...

Recently we've been seeing lots and lots more vintage gear on the auction sites and elsewhere, and a consequent rise in prices at thrift shops and garage sales. However, even though the amount of riff-raff has increased, there are still people looking for the best gear possible, not just something that 'basically works'.

I've seen several pieces of gear sell recently that were 'refurbished'. IE, electrolytic caps replaced, bulbs replaced, fully cleaned and polished, given a full check, bias and offset adjusted, etc. These units sold for a LOT more than their 'straight from the yard sale' breatheren.

How much is that service worth to YOU? If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service?

peace,
sam

In the last month, I have bought equipment both from eBay (Nakamichi CR 1A and Pioneer SX 535) and form an AK member who is a tech (Pioneer SX 780 and Marantz 26). I got lucky with the NAK. It works fine. Not so with teh SX 535. It came with burnt out bulbs and made some gosh-awful noises. For $36 and change with shipping, I couldn't complain, but I did take action. I put the SX 535 and my old NAD amp and tuner (purchased new in 1979) towards the receivers I bought from Kegger. I hope he can refurbish them and find them good homes.

The attention to refurbing or at least checking out the vintage equipment is worth plenty. I don't even know if new stereo receivers have phone inputs, which is a must for anything I use with my computer because I still occasionally burn an LP to CD-R.

So, to answer teh question, refurbished is worth what I paid plus my trade-ins. Furthermore, from now on, that's how I intend to buy any vintage equipment.

Well, maybe if I can get it cheap enough to make paying someone to refurbish it worth while...

[lorne]

Sam wrote: If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service? Excuse me; after all that blah blah above I should have directly answered the original question. Sam, I could not afford the freight as much as I would like to pay for the Full Monty. :drool: :scratch2:

[mg196]

Personally, I will ALWAYS have a new piece of gear refurbed by an AK'er. I think I am averaging about $150 in work per unit:

CT-F1250
SX-1050
DUAL 1219
KA-7100

[lorne]

MG196 wrote:Personally, I will ALWAYS have a new piece of gear refurbed by an AK'er. I think I am averaging about $150 in work per unit:
That sounds marvellous. What is usually involved?

[gamalot]

With electronics we should all understand basic facts. They send Space ships into space and a $2.00 part can fail in the computer system and render a billion dollar mission a failure.
Just because you send it to a tech and he changes the parts that are likely to fail or known to be problematic does not mean it will continue to work with out problems.
Anything can go bad at any time and for no apparent reason.
If you start with units that have a good reputation for excellent build quality you might get very lucky at times.
Most important is to start with units that did not use problematic parts that are simply not available from anywhere any more. Then you have to resort to buying parts units and hoping the part you need is good and does not fail.
Try to replace an oval cap in a G 9000! Other units used ICs that are just not available and then there is always one of those pesky little problems that are here today but not tomorrow and never present while the mechanic or tech has it on the bench.
Collecting Vintage anything is a crap shoot at best and those who make out the best are the ones who have the ability to repair what ever it is they collect.
It is very difficult to change an exhaust system on a car if you don't have a lift. It is equally as hard to change a resistor in a receiver if you don't have the tools for this and the knowledge of how to find the bad one.
It is an adventure, some times sweet and sometimes not so sweet.

Gary

[mg196]

That sounds marvellous. What is usually involved?

Well, as Gamalot mentions, there is a lot to all this refurb stuff...but what has been involved for me? Well, the units I had found were VERY well taken care of in their day, so there was no physical damage to deal with. Basically, they all required a thorough cleaning, some new parts, belts, etc. Some parts were upgraded as well.

My CT-F1250's electric side died on the table and the tech was able to fix it while it was still open. He could easily have sent it back to me and the thing would have died immediately. Two different parts needed to be outsourced to two different AK'ers on this deck. I paid shipping all the way around.

The techs here are all VERY fair and easy to deal with. Look around the forums and see who is always being asked questions! I leave feedback for everyone who works on my gear, so check out the feedback forum. There are definitely specialists here, so depending on what you need there is almost always someone who everyone else relies on for one particular brand/type of unit.

Lastly, and most importantly, you have to make your own decision on what you want to spend. As for the 1250 I spoke of, I know that it is the LAST cassette deck I will ever use. That being said, I put significantly more money into it than I did on my other gear. As for my SX-1050, that will forever be the workhorse in my main system, and when it is ready for a refurb, I will be prepared to drop several C-Notes on it to get it back to specs.

[sanyofreak]

The question was asked so here's my two cents(or maybe less), which is of course, the Truth..... (just joking)

Back when service stations fixed cars (They're called Speedway and BP now, for those of You under 30), this was always my favorite sign......

General diagnosis: $5
Normal repair: $10
You tried to fix it first: $1000
Strange looks: still FREE

And that sums it up pretty much for me. When I see a unit has been professionally refurbished by a certified factory trained technician who invented electrons, runs NASA, graduated PHd from MIT, Sorry, I'll pass.
If the equipment is going in my collection, any hands in it but mine are HACKS. I look for "sat in Dad's basement for 15 years since the last time it was used, original owner, never serviced ---- That one I want.
This may be a warrantless, completely horrible thing to say, but it's honest to how I approach stuff.

Maybe its just me, but I wonder ??? Would You rather buy the "only 1,200 miles on freshly rebuilt motor" or the "120,000 miles with no major problems, all records kept ???" This analogy is for a used car, and I'll buy the latter, not former.

Give an A$$hole a can of de-oxit, and they think they're Nuclear Physicists.

[pustelniakr]

The question was asked so here's my two cents(or maybe less), which is of course, the Truth..... (just joking)

Back when service stations fixed cars (They're called Speedway and BP now, for those of You under 30), this was always my favorite sign......

General diagnosis: $5
Normal repair: $10
You tried to fix it first: $1000
Strange looks: still FREE

And that sums it up pretty much for me. When I see a unit has been professionally refurbished by a certified factory trained technician who invented electrons, runs NASA, graduated PHd from MIT, Sorry, I'll pass.
If the equipment is going in my collection, any hands in it but mine are HACKS. I look for "sat in Dad's basement for 15 years since the last time it was used, original owner, never serviced ---- That one I want.
This may be a warrantless, completely horrible thing to say, but it's honest to how I approach stuff.

Maybe its just me, but I wonder ??? Would You rather buy the "only 1,200 miles on freshly rebuilt motor" or the "120,000 miles with no major problems, all records kept ???" This analogy is for a used car, and I'll buy the latter, not former.

Give an A$$hole a can of de-oxit, and they think they're Nuclear Physicists.

Unintended, I'm sure, but, that one hurt.

Rich P

[mg196]

When I see a unit has been professionally refurbished by a certified factory trained technician who invented electrons, runs NASA, graduated PHd from MIT, Sorry, I'll pass.

Ummm.......huh? I hope he is an AK'er, cuz I am calling him for my next refurb!

[Inspiribomb]

However... I think I would prefer to acquire a stock working unit, and make my own decisions regarding restoration/rejuvenation rather than trusting work of unknown or unverifiable origin.

I'm with HP, give me a bone-stock unit and let me decide what to do with it. I can do some basic "tech-work" for my own gear, but I leave the real stuff to the pros.

[markthefixer]

A factory trained tech probably doesn't exist for most of the stuff that crosses this venue. And a factory trained tech, while having the experience of having made these adjustments ad-nauseum ( I've done that.... ) they would have ZERO experience in dealing with the effects of aging components on equipment... in most cases they would say " within the acceptable range" while originally the adjustments would have been in the middle of the bell curve not on the lower acceptable 5 percent of the range.

A bs'ing ebayer may just fit in your formula, especially with the insane prices lately drawing every cockroah out of the woodwork. And a bs'er can easily make the claim that will draw you in... and that claim is harder to disprove.

HOWEVER:

I would (and literally have (12,000 mi) ) taken the 1200 miles running after rebuild choice, AFTER I have talked to the guy who claims he did it, and made the sale contingent upon proof. For me I'll take the time to wade through the bs to see if it really is bs...... because those finds are worth it.....

[Lefty]

"Give an A$$hole a can of de-oxit, and they think they're Nuclear Physicists."

LOL

The ones that scares me are the modders and re-cappers. I want to be the first and only moron to screw with my stuff :D

Lefty

[dhenryp]

A follow up question for those who don't want (or want to pay for) refurbishing done by others:

When you refurbish/upgrade something and then decide to resell it, do you try to get paid for your refurbishing work?

[lorne]

When you refurbish/upgrade something and then decide to resell it, do you try to get paid for your refurbishing work?
The ones that scares me are the modders and re-cappers. I want to be the first and only moron to screw with my stuff
Precisley because I am a moron :stupid: I do not expect to recover my costs or capitalise on my efforts. As stated above, I do my own work (sometimes with added help of a tech to get me over a hump) because it is the only way I can afford the hobby. But more than that, I do it because I love doing it. All my life I have found it necessary to work with my hands. Anyway, I'm the kinda guy that would rather labour for exercise than go to the gym. Before I worked on electronics I had space to work on cars, bikes and stuff. In Japan this is not the case for me, so reworking an old amp or rebuilding a speaker network is my vocational therapy and window onto the world of technology and nature. Yes, nature. Accomplished people in the industrial arts have taken the time to show me that working with machines is co-operating with nature. And I remember the late Joseph Campbell saying that when he looked inside his computer he was looking at a miracle. In the end, I don't expect anything in return for the privilege. Luckily I have upgraded the sound to the point where the effort is its own reward. After all, without the music what would be the point?

If you give an asshole a can of DeOxit and he thinks he is a genius, then he really IS an asshole. On AK, I feel that I am in good company with people who are in awe and astonishment of the things they meet in their electronic endeavours. All the AKers I’ve met apparently understand both their accomplishments and limitations on a realistic scale. Some of us are more limited than others. The ultimate limitation would be to blast your heart to a standstill by not observing safety precautions. That's a major concern for us morons. :yes:

[Inspiribomb]

When you refurbish/upgrade something and then decide to resell it, do you try to get paid for your refurbishing work?

I don't try, but its an added bonus to doing what I love. Cleaning up a piece of gear and doing a bit of work (adjusting DC offset and whatnot) shows that you care about your gear, which says a lot about the seller and their gear.

[soundmotor]

One thing I've noticed on "that auction site" is that in the last ~18 months there has been a definite final value rise on items that are listed as being in repaired/resto'd/working shape. So much so that I probably will discontinue "as is, repairable" auctions on easy to fix ones.

A perfect example was an amplifier I sold recently. It needed to be recapped and some prior hack mods reversed. I'd figure ~3 hours of soldering time + parts. One sold in working/resto'd condition sold for ~$250 more than mine, in exactly the same cosmetic shape. Certainly, it could have just been timing and I am not bitching as I got it for free at the dump. Even so, after the parts & their shipping costs deducted, it would have been well worth it to fix and likely opened up the auction to many more bidders without the desire for a project.

[sanyofreak]

What I said really was horrible, and no, did not intend to hurt anyone here. Indeed, I was speaking of a completely "online auction" type experience and how I view them. There are some absolutely great techs here who can teach me things every day til I'm pushin daisies up --- My words are often very harsh. Soon, none of You will ever believe I'm really an OK guy, just take my posts with a grain of salt, if it rubs You the wrong way, please get some entertainment value out of it at my expense ---
i.e. "That Sanyo@#$&* dude IS the A-hole with the de-oxit can --- AND HE'S BEEN HUFFIN IT !!!!"

My comments are a culmination of experiences that go way beyond my audio passions and online auction history. I am the real a-hole here, but when it comes to used just 'bout anything, I want it "not dicked with" - even if it has some wear, problems, whatever. I've run into soooo much more incompetence in just about every aspect of my life lately, than I have with knowlegeable caring types - My bad luck, and it spilled over in this post.
If You love this hobby, and Your not inclined electronically and know it, You certainly can and hopefully will find, competent caring help that can add to Your collection and hopefully even save some dough in the long run. I'm just from a different camp (some will say breed or even planet). Thanks to those who made points off my babble, all of which were thoughtful and correct. I went off the deep end and took it out on all of You.

Having someone from AK "refurbish" a unit for You, or purchasing a refurbed unit from a fellow here ---- I put my tail between my legs and humbly say, "uh, nevermind".
Again, my apologies for offenses not intended.

[gamalot]

I've said this before and it still holds true.
Right here on this site we have guys who are lowly carpenters like me, right up to rocket scientists with a bunch of great techs in between.
I doubt there are many who can lay claim to "Jack of all trades" and you know the rest of that.
I have a buddy who is a computer wizzard yet, I would not allow him to pound a nail!
Some of us try to do the simple stuff like cleaning a scratchy pot with a can of DEOXIT. If that make me and A hole then I will wear the title proudly because I learned it right here.
I also learned to check DC offset and bias right here so maybe I am a double Ahole.
I would never say any unit I cleaned was "Pro cleaned and serviced".
Actually I might send a can of Deoxit with it and add another vintage freak to the list of Aholes.
I will however claim any of my units that have been cleaned by me get cleaned meticulously and I have good results. Sometimes I get to say "I do things right because I do things twice", after the first cleaning did not clear the offending switch.
There are sellers who do in fact clean, upgrade, re-cap, adjust and generally give all their units a great going over before they offer them for sale.
These sellers might be worth an extra price for their gear.
Others use the terms "Tech" and "professionally cleaned" and "Certified" as catch phrases and I would shy away from most who do this unless I have personal knowledge of his credentials.
Another one I shy away from is "This is the very best of it's breed" or similar.
Why is he selling it then because he will never get better?

I would always prefer to DIY because I know me and that it got done.
When I need my rocket ship fixed, I know my limitations, and will seek out an AK rocket scientist and it always helps if he is "Certified" or at least "Certifiable".:D

Gary

[lorne]

Some of us try to do the simple stuff like cleaning a scratchy pot with a can of DEOXIT. If that make me and A hole then I will wear the title proudly because I learned it right here. You can't wear the title because we have never seen you claiming to be a genius because you can push the squirt nozzle. What I said really was horrible, and no, did not intend to hurt anyone here. sanyofreak: I must be among others who right off understood that you were referring to jumped-up vendors who were pushing their sales rhetoric like the street shills they really are. I have a can of D-stuff too. Sometimes I'm stumped on a problem and the DeOxit can is the only weapon in my arsenal I can think to use. At these times it is usual for me to either seek advise on AK, or run the unit down to the local technician. That does not make me an A-hole — duh!:stupid::bigok: But my wife thinks that I am certifiable :D

[Magnat10]

I agree it's hard to find skilled repair people who also have pride of workmanship

I may have found just that in Oakville HP, referred to me by an engineer I work with in our company. Two gentleman from central Europe who were very knowledgable and had many vintage units in their shop for repairs

I would like to keep my HK PM660 if it can be repaired without spending a fortune, look for another set of decent speakers and have a second system for my daughter to use

[WhiteSE]

I dont buy units that dont work, usually because I am afraid not of costs, but just the shipping perils...Colombus had less danger than our electronics!.

On the other hand, once i know what I will keep, I wouldnt hesitate to send my gear to get a look under the skirt to the regular monkey wrenches here..I have had nothing but great experiences with the Terry and Craig at NOS...I havent had anything yet to send to Echo or anyone else, but many here have and they have a 100% posit record.

Is the money returned on the investment? I think it depends on the unit's standing in the collectibles market..I have seen redone McGear not selling that much higher because of the ref'b. I would try to recoup maybe 50% but I would like to get 75% of the value of the old stock tubes i put in the unit if they are going along for the ride.