I was reviewing the Panasonic website and noticed the FM series of caps (new item for me at least). These FM caps promise to provide 40-70% lower ESR than Panasonics FC line of caps. Also they are priced lower to boot.

DigiKey is carrying them but in only a limited number of values. If you compare a FM 100uf 50V cap against the same value FC cap you will notice a savings of 12 cents per piece. Other values ie. a 330uf you will save 69 cents per piece. It adds up quick. Diameters and lengths are the same as the FC product as are all the electrical specs except the ERS which as mentioned earlier is 40-70% lower (this is a good thing).

Here is a link ( http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1028.pdf) to the FM caps on DigiKeys site with pricing info. Sadly there are only a limited number of values now but I'd expect this product to replace the FC line over time. This looks to be a win for us DIY folks.

sdz

Hi,

I've also found them - at RS Components catalogue ... Very promissing at the paper - lower ESR and much higher ripple current than PanFC - even better numbers than RubyconZL. And much much cheaper ... So??

I'll give them a try :)

But I wasn't sucesfull by finding original Panasonic's datasheet for them - do you happen to have some useful link?

Thanks

Here is the link to the Panasonic FM capacitors you requested:

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ABA0000CE108.pdf

I hope this gives you the data you need. If not you may want to look around this site:

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/capacitive/cap_leadelec.htm

Good luck,

sdz

Hi,

yes in a meantime I've found datasheet - thanks anyway :)

Yep - on a paper they are a real bargain for what they offer ... And I'll give them a try :)))

These FM caps promise to provide 40-70% lower ESR than Panasonic's FC line of caps. Also they are priced lower to boot.
The title of this thread drew me right in, and your observation regarding price and performance is exactly what I would be attracted to as well you. But it has occurred to me — what if the advertized catch-lines are in fact merely phrases spouted by corporate effort to attract our interest — in this case, capacitors? What if this is an example of the 20th Century icon of Madison Avenue advertising applied to a product that is increasingly consumed by audio enthusiasts with increasing care and attention? Is this an example of the orchestrated, consumer-dance?

You say that they are claiming 40 to 70% lower ESR. But what if it is a similar claim as " ... 40% fewer cavities with Crest!". What does it mean? I have little doubt that the claim IS defensible in some terms. But, is ESR (as a point of interest) subject to any variables in testing and evaluation? if the answer were to be 'no', then my argument would collapse from the beginning. However, if a factor or two is added into the set-up — if testing is not a consistant, standardized activity — then we surely have another ball game. Then what is the standard?

The most exhaustive spec sheets I’ve seen on capacitors provide a wide range of specifications. The conditions and variables are explained in a glossary. But after chasing around looking at these things, I've noticed — or at least I think I have noticed — that the more specific descriptions of capacitor series usually belong to less colourful, more mundane, industrial products.

Admittedly I am relying primarily on my subjective memory of all the hours I have spent shopping for capacitors. And at the same time, I cannot claim any engineering knowledge worth the name. Still, I seem to remember that these more exhaustive specs are not always supplied for cap series that are ardently consumed by the audio community. For example, the last time I went searching for exhaustive specs in regards to the famous MUSE series, I was impressed by how much more descriptive information was supplied for supposedly more humble standard series. And in the confusion, I began to wonder about the claims made by some critics who have claimed that premier, audio-consumer cap series were sometimes rebadged versions of less colorful, industrial types. That is not to say that the industrial product may be anything less than a state-of-the-art product.

So putting my money where my mouth is: my most recent project has been sourced by using off-the-shelf, standard-grade capacitors. I don’t feel the least bit disturbed by the prospect of what I expect to listen to. I realize that this is a kind of heresy in Audio-Land. Are there better caps? Sure there are. But how much better? How much do they cost? Do they make a difference to what I hear? There is no end to the argument on the internet as we all know.

It always gets to me when I read capacitor jackets and find out that the supposedly better cap is rated at 85 degrees, and the more humble, standard one is rated at 105 degrees. Maybe that is Jack S**t to someone living in Prince Rupert BC or Reykiavik, but here in Japan or Lousiana on a 40 degree C. day with 90% humidity, the better temp rating really MEANS something.

Flame me, spear me. Maybe I am wrong! Maybe the incremental impressions that I have absorbed over many hours of hunting caps are just not good enough to reflect the truth of the matter. But I have to ask myself — why do I have to believe what I read, just because it is published by a company that is supposed to be developing products in conjunction with science and engineering?

SDZ: I hope that this does not appear to be a hijacking of your thread. I AM in sympathy with the question. But, in replying to your question, I just want to ask what it means to accept these claims — the same thing that has drawn me in for the same reasons it may have attracted you. And I can’t answer the question: I give up! These days I’m inclined to buy a well-marked cap in an un-sexy back case that is rated for a life of 3000 hours at 105 degrees at max rated bias. And even then I think I am stretching credence. Some AKers can choose replacements for EACH cap on a board in accordance with the exact qualities that the specifications point to. I am not even close to following up. So to answer your question, and my two bits worth of UN-wisdom: you might think about substantiating the claims to the best of your ability. But, if that seems tiresome, I’d purchase the cheaper series. And we should always remember that QC is a MAJOR factor! I made sure where my last batch was made. I DO have my prejudices :yes::stupid: And one of them might be tinned copper leads as opposed to steel ones — if the cap were rated for 105 degrees. Oh! ... to be in Prince Rupert or Reykiavik during the summer! :D :smoke:

Hi,

well I will not give a try with Pan FM :( - because now I know why prices are so attractive - after ordering few different values at RSComp - I was notified they are not obtainable yet - they promissed few weeks delivery for some of them and "we don't have a clue when they can arrive" for others :(((

So no go with PanFM for now ....

@lorne - but PanFC, PanFM, RubZL, etc ARE capacitors with 105°C, looong life (5000, 7000, even more h), and with very promissing electric parameters ... So??

You say that they are claiming 40 to 70% lower ESR. But what if it is a similar claim as " ... 40% fewer cavities with Crest!". What does it mean? I have little doubt that the claim IS defensible in some terms. But, is ESR (as a point of interest) subject to any variables in testing and evaluation?


It should be easy enough for someone on this forum to verify, as ESR can be measured. I have an ESR meter, but I don't have the caps. The next time I place an order with Digikey, I'll buy one of each type of cap in the same microfarad value and test them. If anyone beats me to the punch, please post the results here - I'm curious!

Mark

If Panasonic were aiming their specs at the esoteric side of the audio market, like MUSE, or Black Gate, I would have cause to take a 2nd look. However, my experience, and the way these things are presented, the FM series is an intended replacement for the well-respected FC series.

Nowadays, and for several projects now, FM is where I search 1st, if my value/voltage is not available, then FC, if still no dice, then Nichicon (SU I believe, not sure, since my database is at home), if still no dice, then Xicor or one of the more standard offerings.

FM has been just fine. However, they are still rolling out the series, and each time Digikey sends me a new catalogue, more value/voltage offerings are present. Watch FC disappear in fairly short order. As to cheaper caps...most of these are sub-$1, so, as long as I have to go in, I might as well splurge a few extra cents apiece.

Rich P

@lorne - but PanFC, PanFM, RubZL, etc ARE capacitors with 105°C, looong life (5000, 7000, even more h), and with very promissing electric parameters ... So?? So ... they appear to be really promising.

I have a stack of FC's in my parts bin. Unfortunately, non of the values and voltage ratings matched up to the requirement for my current project. So, I went out to the local supply and fished out standard grade caps — TK, or Tokai Kogyo to be exact. These 105 degree caps come from a domestic Japanese production line, and on the whole I really trust the QC factor here in Japan — Mitsubishi buses and trucks aside. :puke::whip:I can get TK as I need them, and I don't need to pay the minimum freight bill of 1,000 yen. The next time I need caps that I can't get locally, I'll be pleased to order FC's again — or FM's when RS in Japan starts offering them. In order to get the values and voltages I need, I also order Nichicon SR, Nihon Chemicon SRA, and Rubycon YXF. I've also bought Black Gates (Rubycon), Muse series in various flavours, Jackon, Marcon, Tocon, Ltec, and Elna among others. Damn, I wish I could hunt up a good selection of 6.3 Volt caps these days!

The purpose of my previous rant — and I am sorry that it was too long — was to raise the question of marketing ploys in catalogue headings. I got no religion about one brand or series.

Nichicon's FC series is very respected by real techs and adepts on this forum. I am merely a dilettante, and my word on the subject is not worth much. I look forward to seeing the launch of the full spectrum in the FM line. Unfortunately, suppliers here often seem to offer an abbreviated line-up of nearly every series. Maybe that is the same in your country as well. This forces me to have to seek caps from other makers and other series than the one I would be most likely to favour.

I do not think it is necessary to use boutique caps on the whole. But this opinion is derivative, and it comes from people with expertise and knowledge I trust or have planted my faith in. I have made some astonishing changes in gear using very trustworthy but run-of-the-mill cap series. I aim for dependability and longevity. And as you say, the FM series claims to have those factors tied up. Good luck with them. I'll be joining you.
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