Where does one draw the line?

[ckelly]

I have always wondered where does one draw the line between a tweak that improves your overall system and the realm of snake oil and voodoo that i am sure many company prey on people.

An example of this would be this: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C

While i havent tried it, i simply don't see the sense at all in it. Not to mention i find the knob butt ugly, looking like it belongs more on a kitchen cabinet than an amp.

I do beleive fine tuning is good - but there is a point where diminishing returns make you beleive you are listening to an improvement when IMO it is your brain trying to convice you and justify money spent.

Chris

[Don C]

You can draw the line with an A/B comparison. Preferably, blind and with levels matched.

[ckelly]

i was more thinking about how companies prey on people with "bullshit" physics inventing physical properties out of materials that simply isnt true.

[mg196]

That ad is hilarious! The purest bullshit I have ever read in these forums.

[phidauex]

There is a LOT of BS out there about what will improve your sonic experience. Of course, there are also some things that can help, but that don't have a cut and dry technical explanation. The challenge is in sifting the 'works, but is subtle' from the 'useless garbage', since, on the surface, they look so similar.

I've got an open mind about audio, and trust my ears. But I'm also keenly aware of how easy it is for my mind to trick my senses, and don't have any fantasies about this physiological effect 'not applying' to me.

I go on the assumption that anything that your ears can measure, equipment could measure as well. Now, its not always obvious WHAT to measure, or how, but I believe that it should be possible to quantify the effect of ANYTHING that has an effect on the sound, since your ears are not magic, they are just another type of highly sensitive measurement device.

If someone claims something makes a sonic difference, I'd like to see some proposals for how it could be measured or quantified. Is a birch knob exactly the same as a poplar knob? How could we tell? Is one better? Or are they just different? Sadly, in this case, I can't think of a way to even begin measuring, or even describing in true physical terms, what the effect would be between a bakelite knob and a wood knob (since neither are magnetic).

A/B tests are great for detecting small differences, but not so great at figuring out 'which is better', since what you like in a few seconds isn't always what you like after a few weeks. (Pepsi scores better in short a/b tests, because it is sweeter, but Coke scores better in week-long comparisons, because it is less sweet). So one could use an a/b test to detect a difference, and then, assuming one is found, a longer term test could determine which 'difference' is preferable.

Anyway... Its a pretty knob, but if I wanted wooden stereo knobs, I'd just go down to the cabinetry store and buy one for 5$. ;)

peace,
sam

[ckelly]

I tend to think if one can think can hear the difference with some knob with magical varnish on it, then I think it's time to either take a holiday or consider buying new music.

I think a bad sign in general is when one listens to the system more and more and less listening to the music.

Chris

[Lefty]

You can draw the line with an A/B comparison. Preferably, blind and with levels matched.

Hey that's my line :D

Lefty

[thedelihaus]

4485 for a knob. I tell you one thing, I'd sure like to meet the person or persons who bought them, to put a face to it all.

I dunno how some brass, laquer and a small piece of beechwood could make that much of a sound difference, or how it could cost that much to produce. Maybe I don't know any better, or maybe in fact I do. Anyhow, I'm baffled. And can only conclude this is a joke planted on the website and is not for real.

[old_tv_nut]

I too think either A/B or figuring out what to measure and measuring it is how you draw the line. This claim is for reducing or changing vibration coupling to the volume control, so... play something loud using another receiver, and listen to (or measure with a scope) the output of this receiver with some other input (like a tone) which would be modulated by vibrations - do it with the old knob and new, and see if there is any effect. If you can stand the torture, play a swept tone loudly with the first receiver, so you can look for resonances in the second one.

[House de Kris]

Suddenly I'm very glad my stereo doesn't have any knobs on it. At least this way, I don't have to worry about cheap knobs getting in between me and my music.

[BULLWINKLE]

Maybe if I use wood ear plugs the voices will go away. Oh, that's better. :D

[Negotiableterms]

I'm not a big fan of A/B as the ultimate arbiter, so here's another viewpoint:

I don't think any tweak makes sense when you're "fixing" something that shouldn't reasonably be a problem in the first place. Examples:

-Every piece of audio gear should be designed so as to reasonably eliminate audible microphonic effects. If the knobs make a difference, get a new preamp.

-If your cables are properly shielded, you don't have to lift them off the floor.

-If your speakers are properly designed, they don't need magic cones on top.

Now, there are tweaks that make sense. A TT is bound to pick up vibrations, and everyone's floor and walls are different. An isolation platform will likely improve the sound of many TTs. The same should not be true of a pre-amp unless it's sitting near the subwoofer.

Bottom line, I think any common thing that some magic tweak fixes is a flaw in the original gear, and if it's got those kind of flaws, it's time to rethink.

In real life, I'm not as hard-core about it as this sounds. The key is reasonableness. I have a set of Brightstar Audio sand blocks, which I use to damp vibration to the active crossover that is sitting on a stand in between my two subs (4 - 18" drivers). The amount of vibration there makes the blocks worthwhile, otherwise, the subs can literally vibrate the crossover around on the stand. It's not reasonable to expect the crossover to be designed to ignore that much vibration.

Just my 2c, and I know YMMV.

[theodoric]

I have always wondered where does one draw the line between a tweak that improves your overall system and the realm of snake oil and voodoo that i am sure many company prey on people.

An example of this would be this: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C
You have got to be kidding me.

Oh well, put it alongside Tice TPT clocks, Mpingo disks, cable elevators, Totem Beaks, and all that other nonsense.

"There's a sucker born every minute." - David Hannum, 1870

[melofelo]

what will they think of next ? :D

[systemerror909]

The person that buys that knob is the person that hears the difference, the $400 knob absolutely makes a sonic difference, your perception and system just isnt good enough to take notice of that change, you will never know how good sound played back with that knob can be.

I guess if someone is that picky about their sound, they DESERVE to pay $400 for a knob.

[melofelo]

:D if someone hears a difference worth $485 then i think its worth every penny :thmbsp: ...i doubt even if my system was that revealing that i could afford such an 'upgrade'

[Andyman]

I only wish I had the hearing and finances to be able to hear and afford such friviolities.

[GaryP]

Me, too. :)

On the other hand, don't put your hearing ability down. I'll bet donuts to dollars, there is a sound improvement if one has the right system!

[doucanoe]

I once saw a ad from a Japanese manufacture for a system/hearing improvement product that they offered. They literally were big curved "ears" that you strapped onto your head. Almost like cupped hands behind your ears. The ad showed a woman sitting in a comfortable chair wearing these helper "ears", with her eyes closed and a blissful smile on her face.

Now thats a system tweek.

RC

[kerozene]

Hold it! Wait. I am yanking my 9090DB knobs out... Ah, there! What a difference that it makes!...

WTF!

[DaWoofer]

I thought about that same thing the other day (head-strapped aid). Cupped hands do make a marked improvment! Maybe make some that "look" like cupped hands. Any other style would be hard to fathem. The cupped hands might be the only way they might sell.

[rcriss]

Maybe their R&D team is developing a new headphone system as we speak (type). I can see it now..... design engineers are at some of the most acoustically famous sites around the world, Carnegie Hall, The Opera house in sydney (sp), the Hollywood Bowl. Then they handcarve coconut shells use custom drivers Oxygen free wireing to create the ultimate listening experience. all for a pawltry 10 grand......well like my dad used to tell me, "Son there's an ass for every seat" lol

[ZebraBlvd]

Maybe Superman will buy them for his system, hey I believe in St. Nick too. :smoke: I swear to god I do - shut up Randy.

[Drybasement]

Not to put a finer point too it, this is bullshit.

I'd like to meet the person who paid $485 for a wooden knob so I can bitch slap them back to reality.

Is it possible even the extreme wealthy have lost all common sense?

Cheers

[Bigerik]

Ya guys think they would send us one for the trial program? :D

[chrisf]

check this site out.
machinadynamica.com

[ozmoid]

check this site out.
machinadynamica.comOK, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I cannot believe this site! PT Barnum would be very proud.

Remove the **** from its clear bubble pack and place it anywhere in the listening room. The sound will be considerably more musical and live sounding. There will be less distortion, more information and a deep, coherent soundstage. Low frequencies will be articulate, extended and dynamic, high frequencies exceptionally smooth with phenomenal inner detail. In other words, More of Everything!! OK, you expect me to buy that a teeny little piece of cheap electronics, simply BY ITS PROXIMITY to my gear, is going to have that kind of effect? Is it irradiated? ARE YOU irradiated?

"All versions of the **** are sonically equivalent." You bet they are!

"For A/B comparisons, i.e., to evaluate the sound without the ***, place the *** outside the house structure, for example on the front steps -- but NOT in a drawer, closet, another room, basement or garage OR, as it turns out, the family car."Alright, now you want me to believe that there is a magic audio feed that connects the car and the house? What about the neighbor's car? What about John Malkovich?

****uses specially prepared, long lifetime batteries; off-the-shelf batteries should not be used. Heaven forbid you buy a battery at A STORE! Gasp! Those batteries have been stored, you see, and are already depleted - you need our freshly built batteries - they've been specially prepared by our chef JUST for your audio gear's appetite!

I really hate to slam something so hard, but this is just terrible. There is no ryhme or reason to the claims made, and there is no science to back it up. I would be more forgiving if they had taken the time to MAKE UP SOME SCIENCE while they were making up products.

My 2¢.

[ozmoid]

BTW, if you looked at the above site, and decided to try their products, you should know I'm selling jars of rocks at a HUGE DISCOUNT over their price. PM me.

You know, just in case.

[EchoWars]

Sorry, but I'd rather have the tweeter that doesn't do a fucking thing. (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina28.htm)...producing no acoustic frequencies in the audio band (20 Hz- 20KHz), not even frequencies in the 20KHz - 100KHz range of high quality super-tweeters...The working frequency of the Ultras is above 1 Gigahertz (GHz). Maybe I could point it at my dinner and warm it up...

[melofelo]

forgive my ignorance of physics...
but wouldn't a 1 giga hertz tweeter send all the dogs in your local neighbourhood nuts ? :D
hm...how is one to hear an improvement when one's ears are forced to shut out the sound of the local canine population in neighbourhood-wide harmonious protest ?
hmm...think i'll 'pass' on this upgrade too :scratch2:

[WhiteSE]

To me, its not even worth thinking about it. BS or not, even if it did work as advertized I wouldnt plunk down the cash for it...same with mega $$ cables, risers, ultra expensive racks....I just dont find the fun in squeezing that extra 5% if even that by spending on that stuff.

I rather buy some LP's and listen at 80% max potential, but have a cool set of Decca SXL Brandenburg's....But thats just me.

[Paul C]

You have got to be kidding me.

Oh well, put it alongside Tice TPT clocks, Mpingo disks, cable elevators, Totem Beaks, and all that other nonsense.

"There's a sucker born every minute." - David Hannum, 1870

Not to mention stacking bricks on top of amplifiers, green magic marker on the edges of CD's, biwiring, polished granite blocks to put your turntable on, and so many more I have forgotten.

And of course, if you can't hear all of these sonic improvements, you must be either deaf or stupid. :rolleyes:

[merrylander]

...
I think a bad sign in general is when one listens to the system more and more and less listening to the music.

Chris

I could not agree more. I remember when I first started with Bell years ago. Had a chap I worked with who was always asking me to run out to his pplace on lunch hour to hear his latest system (he changed about every three months). I finally asked him, "Serge, when do you sit down and listen to music?"

We got a catalog in the mail two weeks ago, Audio something, pure snake oil from cover to cover, it is hopefully being recycled by now so that it may serve some purpose.

Rob

[DanTana]

I wonder if they sell the custom knob polisher to go with it?

[GaryP]

Not to mention stacking bricks on top of amplifiers...

Reduces vibrations. Same theory as isolating your CDP or amp from the shelf. I know a guy who puts his amp on his CD player to get a cleaner (clearer) sound. It works - on his system!

I don't use bricks (my amps are tubes - no tops to them!) but I use isolation devices (superballs & coasters = $0.44 for a 'foot').

Works well on my main rig. Not so well on the "house" system.

[Kiwi]

Marketing Genious if you can get anyone to pay for stuff that you cant hear working !
I laughed at that lot !. But as Scotty said you canna change the laws of physics , but then there will allways be those who belief in magic :)

[bentpencil]

............I have some wine I'd like to sell him................oops...another thread............

[Nakdoc]

I'm gonna pull rank, not to cop a superior attitude, but to offer some rational basis for why these tweeks exist.
There are audio systems that can be assembled and set up that have the resolution to reveal differences, under whatever circumstances one wishes to test, when observed by open minded people with trained ears and a vocabulary to communicate what they hear. Resolution and listening skill are the two essentials, albiet expensive and time consuming, that open the door to considering even the most preposterous tweeks. If you are ever able to sit in the soundfield of one of these systems, you will know what I am requiring here. 99% of audiophiles have not had such opportunity, and are left to shake their heads in bewilderment at the gullibility of audiophiles with too much money and not enough brains.
i refuse to pretend to be able to sort through the thousands of tweaks and pronounce them good or bad, but I can tell you i have heard some that make a good difference, so I keep an open mind about all of them.

[Negotiableterms]

I have no rank to pull, but I will say that my experience has been that all sorts of things affect the sound of systems, many of which have no apparent explanation. I'm not talking about marketed tweeks; I'm referring to things like the cat sitting on a nice warm amp. The damn animal gets up and the sound changes. Why its furry little body should affect the sound of my dad's Phase Linear 400, I've no idea...but it did, and it was pure grief getting the cat to stay put for further experiments.

Move some of the cables around in back of your gear. Switch the position of pieces of gear in the rack. There are sometimes small changes in the sound. Who knows why? In theory, there shouldn't be, and the changes are minor, but when they happen, they're repeatable.

My point, the cat notwithstanding, is that some tweeks make differences in some systems, and not in others. As I said before in this thread, they probably shouldn't, but in fact some do. I wouldn't pay much for any of them, but that doesn't mean a very wealthy audio geek might not be happier with the minor change in his sound after blowing a bunch of money on some exotic thing.

In every field of endeavor, there are those that go too far. Tweaky knobs? Not for me, thank you, at any price, but it's not fair to dismiss every tweak just because some are way, way out there.

Let's remember that the point of this forum is to explore the stuff that isn't easily explainable, without having the discussion shut down by the "all amps sounds alike" genre of argument.

And just in case: the cat and the Phase Linear died about the same time. Both are long gone, 20 years ago, so if you want an A-B session, you'll have to use your own cat! :D

Edit: Is it 'tweak' or 'tweek'?

[WhiteSE]

dont forget that sometimes when we reach behind the gear, bend over, or kneel, it can change the pressure in the ears and sinus cavities, and so affect what we hear....sometimes just doing something is enough for a change, and maybe not the change itself.

When one tweaks, sometimes the tuneful attention to detail isnt there...our ability mentally and physiologically to keep our parameters the same make judgements or events pretty hard...

I wont bother disputing, but I think that tweaking to death isnt worth the hassle.

[Negotiableterms]

I wont bother disputing, but I think that tweaking to death isnt worth the hassle.

In this case, that means we're in complete agreement!

I have no tweaks in my system, not even exotic cables. My only point is that I like the open-minded approach to everything in audio.

[Paul C]

Any guy who claims his ears are better than yours, and sounds like a yuppie at a wine tasting party...

I LOVE this site:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/index.php

Kind of like Penn & Teller's BS show, except for audiophiles.

[Bigerik]

Any guy who claims his ears are better than yours, and sounds like a yuppie at a wine tasting party...

I LOVE this site:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/index.php

Kind of like Penn & Teller's BS show, except for audiophiles.

Problem of course is that there ARE people whose hearing is better than mine or yours. Just like there are people whose eyesight is better. Just how it is. Chuck Yeager was reknowned for being able to see enemy fighters LONG before the rest of the squadron could in WW2. Does that mean the fighters weren't there cause the rest of the squadron could not see them?

[GaryP]

There are also stereo systems that are better than what we have.

I sometimes visit high end audio shops and get 'em to play some of my CDs. Sometimes I'm amazed at the improved difference. Sometimes I'm unimpressed.

[PHC1]

Good vibrations, Bad vibrations it’s all about vibrations!! Or so it says on their website. Yes wood has been used for ages for music instruments because it sounds better than any other material either man made or natural. There is a reason why they choose maple, spruce, ebony and even rosewood for violins, because that's what sounds good. Ever hear a violin made of stone or plastic? Obviously wood does resonate with vibrations and introduces a sound of it's own, hence it's use in stringed instruments. But why in the world would you claim that it absorbs electronic vibrations or as they claim "The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs". What micro vibration are they talking about? Volume pots and knobs create vibrations? Has this ever been measured by anyone in any scientific circles? I believe the components can vibrate from loudspeakers as does the floor and rack from soundwaves, but that is mechanical vibration not electronic. In that case, you would need a good vibration insulator like rubber. But wait, we all know that's bad too because there are about a thousand of "audiophile grade" cones, footers, wooden blocks, balls, etc.. to buy! Oh the hell with it, I think I'll just go listen to music instead of typing any further....

[GaryP]

PHC1, are you talking about the wooden knob?

[PHC1]

Yes the wooden knob for $485. Wasn't that what started this thread?