All other factors aside, more tracking force = more bass? Therefore less tracking force = more highs? I've forgotten so much about vinyl and I need a refresher. :scratch2:

:headscrat

Mitsuman,

If it tracked by the recommended force given by the cart/stylii maker it should give the right high's and low's but I track them a little bit lower so that the wear to the vinyl can be minimized.

For scratching purposes, they always set the force higher for better grip. I am sure it makes a small difference in sound quality and I agree with you. If it tracks on the tracking force recommended by the stylii maker it will give the best bass/treble and if you track a little lighter it gives a little less bass.

This difference is not audible unless measured. With a good amplifier/pre-amplifier/receiver/equalizer etc. this difference in tracking makes for no loss.

This is my opinion but am eager to hear from others.

Thankee!
cosmicdust

its also been suggested than the upper end of a cartridge's tracking range is where the least amount of vinyl wear occurs...and the maximum amount of information retrieval from the disc is possible...
i can visualize the logic but wouldn't know how to describe the physics of it... :scratch2:
something to do with the stylus & cantilever having to do two opposing things at once...trace the groove accurately while dampening the excitement of the arm resonating in sympathy with the modulations of the groove due to insufficient down force.
and as result...the whole process ending up wearing the groove even more than if it were tracking at a higher downforce within its range simply because all that extra uncontrolled vibration is transmitted directly back into the vinyl at exactly the time the stylus is busy tracing a different modulation in the groove...
a bit like driving around with suspension springs...and no shock absorbers...the tyre ( vinyl ) is then being worn away steadily by the hard road..and the springs merely randomise the wear pattern everytime you hit a bump...and the tyre bounces uncontrollably... increasing wear even more until it settles down on flat road again...
not sure if its a good analogy... :D
but i guess too little is as bad as too much where tracking force is concerned ? :scratch2:

If you didn't know what the tracking force ought to be for a cartridge, you could deliberately under-track -- say, at 1/2 gram -- and then listen. You would hear lots of audible distortion, especially in the upper-mid-range and treble domains.

As you added force, say, in 1/8 gram increments, you would hear the distortion decreasing, until at some point you would reach the "knee" of the distortion curve. The very next 1/8 gram increment would yield no discernible decrease in distortion. For moving-magnet cartridges the "knee" will occur somewhere between about .8 gram and 1.25 grams. This represents the minimum acceptable tracking force (MATF). Set the anti-skate for the same value.

The next thing to do is to play a record with a pinch warp (a ripple near the outer edge.) See if the MATF permits stable tracking. If it does, great! If not, again add small increments of force to see if the oscillation created by going over the "bump" in the record can be damped out.

Dual actually used a tunable counter-resonator on many of their turntables from about 1980. You would use the pinch warp as your impuse and tune the resonator to minimize the amplitude and duration of the "shimmy."

Hope this info is useful to you.

Fred Longworth
StereoTech Classic Audio Repair
http://www.repairaudio.com

Another thing that may be affecting this, is as you increase the weight you changing the VTA, effectively lowering it. Lowering VTA increases bass and rolls off the highs. Also slightly affects the overhang alignment of the cartridge.

X

a good read... :thmbsp:
http://smartdev.com/LT/Align.htm

a good read... :thmbsp:
http://smartdev.com/LT/Align.htm

Very nice read indeed. :beerchug: I had forgotten most of that. :yes:

Very nice read indeed. :beerchug: I had forgotten most of that. :yes:
I see you are from "Illanoy". I grew up in carbondale and in the early 70's enjoyed many hours of KSHE!

Regards,
Russellc

I see you are from "Illanoy". I grew up in carbondale and in the early 70's enjoyed many hours of KSHE!

Regards,
Russellc

Russel,

My daughter attends SIUC currently. :D

One of the best stations in the country, back in the day. :yes:

Is KSHE still around? SIU was a crazy party school when I lived there, halloween was like Marti gras. That party made national tv when "On the road with Charles Kuralt,( I may have spelled it wrong.) stopped in to check it out. I was in on the first one, they were really out of hand. They finally rearranged the school schedual so class was out over halloween, and less kids were there. I think playboy mag rated it in the top ten party universitys back then. I had to move away to go to school! KSHE was king. Turn it on, music was taken care of.

Regards,
Russellc

Was looking up resonance related posts and came across this one, so resurrecting it. SIU! I graduated from SIU Carbondale 1976. Grew up in central Illinois and just loved it down there. There was an FM radio station out of Murphysboro that was my favorite. It also ran the Mother Earth News all the time. Any old SIU hippies remember that and what station that was? Was it WTAO? Wow! They're online now! Listening now. Anyone ever been to Ma Hale's restaurant in Grand Tower on the Mississippi? Man-o-man what memories that conjures up. Plaster-of-Paris cast of Big Foot by the register and Big Foot articles on the wall, all-you-can-eat.... just sit down an POW!... a pile of food on the table... fried chicken, stewed tomatoes, corn, green beans, navy beans, biscuits, real mashed potatoes! What a cure for the "munchies"!!!! LOL! Walk down to the river... climb on the rocks... take me back. Sad to hear that it closed. Found this. To Ma Hale's! :beerchug:

Not all of Grand Tower's legends were tragic, however. Melissa "Ma'' Hale lured folks from all over to her restaurant and boarding house. There, they could eat their fill of fried chicken, real mashed potatoes and other homecooked delights, served family style.

Ma Hale entered the restaurant business in 1939 after retiring from dairy farming. She first had three or four boarders. Then riverboat captains asked if she would feed their crews. The restaurant grew; after Ma retired, her son, Tom, operated it. It was sold and eventually closed.

Wayman Presley of Presley tours brought in thousands of visitors on train excursions; all were fed at Ma Hale's. In appreciation, in 1971, Presley staged a "Ma Hale Day'' at Devil's Backbone Park with 3,000 persons attending. He also unveiled a five-ton boulder with a plaque commemorating Ma's years of serving meals "to all comers.'' During the ceremonies, a brother-in-law noted that Ma had ``never turned away a dog or a bum.''

A number of magazine articles about Grand Tower proclaim Tower Rock to be the nation's smallest national park. That statement even appeared in Ripley's "Believe It or Not'' newspaper feature. Tower Rock is neither a national park nor a national monument. The island is owned by the federal government and has been ever since it was "withdrawn for public purposes'' by an executive order of President Ulysses S. Grant dated Feb. 24, 1871. It does remain federal property, however.

To return to the question that started the thread -- if you are impatient and/or listen to a wide variety of music, and unless you have first rate equipment very well set up, you would do better to track at the upper end of the manufacturer's recommended range. The real cause for record wear (other than dirt) is when the stylus looses firm contact with the groove -- at which point it starts ricocheting around, smashing the walls of the groove. At the minimum, this will sound like uneasiness , like obvious distortion at higher levels, and cause groove jumping if really horrendous. Obviously its desireable to avoid this, but exactly what tracking force will accomplish secure tracking depends on the amount of groove modulation, arm friction, arm resonances and damping, cartridge geometry, amount of antiskating, amount of feedback through the table's suspension, and even the specific cartridge you bought -- there are variations in any manufactured product.
So even if, with one record or volume level, the lowest tracking force works, it might not with another.
I spent years always tracking at the lowest suggested force, and while it doesn't seem like I wore out my records, I set up my equipment with religious fervor and usually had my turntable in a seperate room or closet etc. I've gotten a lot less anal (and less spec driven) so I err on the side of caution, usually tracking at about 3/4 of the maximum recommended. I'm less frightened of higher trackng forces because I play many many used records, and find that most are just fine -- that has more to do with the huge styli that are used in crappy record players, which leave the bottom of the groove pristine, than it does with tracking force, but I also have used a couple of really high tracking force cartridges -- Deccas for example -- and have seen that they don't wear any more than less high tracking force cartridges, provided the stylus shape and force match correctly.
This has been long and boring, but I spent too much time believing the line in the Transcriptor Vestigial Tonearm ad about the effects of tracking at higher than a quarter of a gram. Bull.

Nat thanks, that makes sense. I always wondered what I should do when the vendor gives you minimum, optimal, and maximum settings. Never thought of possible damage caused by minimum tracking settings. I always thought that too much is like too heavy or something and like maybe could cause increased groove wear as well. 3/4 toward maximum sounds reasonable to me.
Why the hell cant the vendor just tell you what the setting is without giving 3 different ones to choose from :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Cartridge manufacturers are dealing with a couple of incompatible goals. On one hand, they need to give a tracking force that will keep the needle in the groove even under duress -- high friction bearings, feedback, crud in grooves, incompetant set up and all the other problems out there -- and yet appeal to consumers who care about low tracking force. And in warning against an unreasoned enthusiams for low tracking force, I don't mean to denigrate the importance of appropriately low tracking force -- each stylus type and size has a different footprint on the vinyl groove wall. A conical stylus can be safely used with a relatively large tracking force because it has a large area in contact with the groove (whether or not it actually can follow all the smallest groove modulations), an eliptical has a rather small area, so it needs a lower tracking force, and the shibatas, line contact, etc fall somewhere inbetween. Too much pressure will actually melt vinyl (recognize that the footprint is small enough that a gram or two of pressure is actually an enormous pressure per square inch), but too little will let the stylus loose contact with the groove, at which point it becomes a projectile, smashing its way down the groove.
So a balance is needed, but where that balance is depends on the arm and record as much as the cartridge.

Was looking up resonance related posts and came across this one, so resurrecting it. SIU! I graduated from SIU Carbondale 1976. Grew up in central Illinois and just loved it down there. There was an FM radio station out of Murphysboro that was my favorite. It also ran the Mother Earth News all the time. Any old SIU hippies remember that and what station that was? Was it WTAO? Wow! They're online now! Listening now. Anyone ever been to Ma Hale's restaurant in Grand Tower on the Mississippi? Man-o-man what memories that conjures up. Plaster-of-Paris cast of Big Foot by the register and Big Foot articles on the wall, all-you-can-eat.... just sit down an POW!... a pile of food on the table... fried chicken, stewed tomatoes, corn, green beans, navy beans, biscuits, real mashed potatoes! What a cure for the "munchies"!!!! LOL! Walk down to the river... climb on the rocks... take me back. Sad to hear that it closed. Found this. To Ma Hale's! :beerchug:

Not all of Grand Tower's legends were tragic, however. Melissa "Ma'' Hale lured folks from all over to her restaurant and boarding house. There, they could eat their fill of fried chicken, real mashed potatoes and other homecooked delights, served family style.

Ma Hale entered the restaurant business in 1939 after retiring from dairy farming. She first had three or four boarders. Then riverboat captains asked if she would feed their crews. The restaurant grew; after Ma retired, her son, Tom, operated it. It was sold and eventually closed.

Wayman Presley of Presley tours brought in thousands of visitors on train excursions; all were fed at Ma Hale's. In appreciation, in 1971, Presley staged a "Ma Hale Day'' at Devil's Backbone Park with 3,000 persons attending. He also unveiled a five-ton boulder with a plaque commemorating Ma's years of serving meals "to all comers.'' During the ceremonies, a brother-in-law noted that Ma had ``never turned away a dog or a bum.''

A number of magazine articles about Grand Tower proclaim Tower Rock to be the nation's smallest national park. That statement even appeared in Ripley's "Believe It or Not'' newspaper feature. Tower Rock is neither a national park nor a national monument. The island is owned by the federal government and has been ever since it was "withdrawn for public purposes'' by an executive order of President Ulysses S. Grant dated Feb. 24, 1871. It does remain federal property, however.
Yes! I had forgotten about WTOA! thanks for the reminder, now let's see if I can find it on line...I was in Murphy just a few days ago. My "new" wife to be has kids that live there.

russellc

Russellc

You want to be careful about using too little tracking force. That can allow the stylus to rattle around in the groove. That can damage your LP's, too.

Following what Fred said, if it sounds right, it probably is.

I was searching the site looking for information on various cartridges and ran across this thread. You seem to know something about cartridges/styli and I was hoping you could give me some insight. I have a Kenwood 3055 turntable which I recently hooked back into my system (I fell victim to the urge to once again listen to vinyl). I decided it needed a new stylus in the M91ED cartridge installed in it. I read some posts which suggested the M97 would be a better cartridge and it wasn't too expensive so I bought a complete new cartridge. Now for my problem. I have meticulously followed all instructions and done it several times so I think the tracking, stylus pressure and anti-skate are all adjusted properly but it just doesn't sound as good as the old cartridge. The bass notes don't seem as warm and clear. Is this just my imagination, have I done something wrong or is it possible it really isn't as good as the old cartridge? I know I bought a low grade cartridge, but on my budget it was all I could afford. I would have really been upset to have spent a couple of hundred dollars or more only to be disappointed with the results. Any thoughts on your part would be appreciated.

lots of threads here, on audioasylum, and audiogon as well as cartridge makers like Van Den Hul or turntable makers like walker have a ton of information. My experience is too little VTF will result in mistracking and damage to the record (scratches) and a loss of bass clarity. IMO, the best setting is usually within the range recommended by the cartridge manufacturer then slight adjustments up and down to see what you like best. I have found most moving coil cartridges have a sweet spot (vtf and VTA) that when you find it, all ranges (bass, midrange and highs) are crisp, and just as important, the sound stage opens up to a point that you can hear individual instruments/vocals with a "stage" presence or position in your sound stage. I used to say these "audiophiles" are just squalking about their system until i stumbled on the sweet spot with my cartridge. Once you find it, you do not have to mess with it, but I will encourage you to tweak up and down with VTF and VTA and let your own ears decide

I was searching the site looking for information on various cartridges and ran across this thread. You seem to know something about cartridges/styli and I was hoping you could give me some insight. I have a Kenwood 3055 turntable which I recently hooked back into my system (I fell victim to the urge to once again listen to vinyl). I decided it needed a new stylus in the M91ED cartridge installed in it. I read some posts which suggested the M97 would be a better cartridge and it wasn't too expensive so I bought a complete new cartridge. Now for my problem. I have meticulously followed all instructions and done it several times so I think the tracking, stylus pressure and anti-skate are all adjusted properly but it just doesn't sound as good as the old cartridge. The bass notes don't seem as warm and clear. Is this just my imagination, have I done something wrong or is it possible it really isn't as good as the old cartridge? I know I bought a low grade cartridge, but on my budget it was all I could afford. I would have really been upset to have spent a couple of hundred dollars or more only to be disappointed with the results. Any thoughts on your part would be appreciated.

rjohn, First off welcome aboard, how long have you had the new cart in? you may just need to wait for it to break in a little, sometimes it takes several hours for a cart to start sounding as it should.

should start to sound more open after a few hours use

Its worth just checking to make sure you have the cartridge wired correctly. If one channel is out of phase with the other, you won't have much bass, and imaging will be out. Also, if I recall correctly, the M 97 has a damper brush, which requires an additional one gram of tracking force, so after balancing, you ought to set the tracking force at around 2 1/2 grams. Ditto antiskate.

There are 2 things that wear out. The diamond wears, and the groove wears. Which is more difficult to replace? By NOT using the maximum recommended tracking force high velocity (the treble) high volume music will cause mistracking, which literally is the diamond colliding against the groove wall sorta like the hovercar race in Star Wars #1. This wears out the groove.
My recommendation is to minimize groove wear, and keep the records clean!

I would doubt that your problem is that the M97hx isn't as good as the M91ed, since theoretically the M97 is a step up from the M91. Hence my suspicion that something is wrong with the setup. Its not impossiblye that there is a defect in the cartridge, but it's not likely. But its possible that even set up is correctly, that you simply don't like the sound of the new cartridge. Possibly the damper is damping the low frequency which might have been giving a bit of fullness to the bass, or possibly the new one has more extended highs, which might create a brighter overall sound. I'd listen carefully to the bass to see if its actually lacking, or merely seems less.

Thanks for the reply. I actually bought another Kenwood turntable off E-bay with the 91 cartridge installed. Seller says all in good working condition, including the cartridge and stylus. When I receive it I'll swap out my current TT and see if I notice a difference. There is every possibility I don't have my current one set up correctly as I'm following the directions in the manual for setting tracking pressure and I don't have an actual guage.