How do you compare cables?

[GaryP]

I was thinking of this last night. It was briefly addressed in another thread but I don't think we reached a solution.

Many of us are in the 'cable swap' program and have or will be receiving nifty* interconnects, speaker cables and power cords to try out.

If there is no difference when you swap your existing cables with the 'loaner' cables, we've no problem! We'd report that there was no difference on our system and send them off to the next person.

If the new cables sound worse than what you have - again - we've no problem! We'd report that they sounded worse than what we have and send them off to the next person.

But what happens if there is a difference and they sound better than what you have? Yes, we'd report the improvement and send them on to the next person. And then the next set of interconnects arrive - they also sound better.

Uh-oh - did interconnects A (that you reviewed a few weeks ago) sound better than interconnects B (that you have right in front of you)?

:scratch2:

Sure, the soundstage opened up for both of the interconnects. Everything's clearer. But which one was better? Which one sounds better on my system?

Does anyone have any ideas or solutions?

This is what I do. I have a Japanese first pressing CD of Pink Floyd's DSOTM (this is the version made before the 'musak' was put on the master tape in error. Cool.) During the track "On the Run", I listen for the lady announcer's voice and try to hear as many words as possible through that thick English accent. Then during the intro of "Time" I listen for the depth and placement of the bongo drums before the singing starts.

I have an amazing Nat King Cole vocal album (the DCC gold disc). I try to determine how 'real' the vocals sound. Is Nat singing in my listening room? Is Jim Morrison still alive?

Does this make any sense whatsoever?

Are there any other 'tricks' people can share?

* Nifty means Neat-o! ;)

[dr*audio]

I have various cds or tracks that are revealing, like that. Amanda McBroom singing, "The Rose", for instance. Does it sound like she's right in the romm with me? Is the image solid? Is the tambre of her voice correct?
I put the cable in the tape monitor loop and see if it changes anything. If it changes the sound at all, out it goes. I have noticed some cheap cables from Radio Shack roll off the bass response.

[Negotiableterms]

When the cable test program was in formation, I suggested that each tester should go out and buy a set of "reference" cables to compare the test cables to. I was thinking of a fairly basic set of cables from Radio Shack (interconnects) or Home Depot (speaker), nothing expensive.

The problem you now have has no easy solution. Whether cable A sounded better than cable B or C or D is going to be very hard to figure out, as there's nothing to refer to.

So... I think that the only route is to take notes about what you're hearing with each cable and try to describe the differences as best you can. It might help if the team of testers came up with some semi-standardized descriptive terms...or it might not.

I didn't wind up doing this thing because I couldn't imagine how I'd describe the test cables without continually saying snooty-sounding things like "...against my reference Wama-Bama XYZ-7000s, the test cables sounded...".

I believe that AK has just encountered every reviewer's nightmare: so many differences, with no common reference.

[botrytis]

Well, only true way of testing is double-blind testing. In listening to cables, one sub-consiously makes decisions based on our likes and dislikes.

Dave

[tentoze]

When the cable test program was in formation, I suggested that each tester should go out and buy a set of "reference" cables to compare the test cables to. I was thinking of a fairly basic set of cables from Radio Shack (interconnects) or Home Depot (speaker), nothing expensive.

The problem you now have has no easy solution. Whether cable A sounded better than cable B or C or D is going to be very hard to figure out, as there's nothing to refer to.

Whaaa? No doubt I'm missing several boats at once in this whole particular topic, but....

1) If I, along with every other tester, have Cable R as my "reference" cables, it isn't clear to me how that helps me decide if Cable A, in hand yesterday, is superior to Cable B, in hand today, or C, in hand tomorrow. All I can say is that one or more of said evaluation cables was superior to Cable R. And if the rest of the world has the same Cable R, they can determine no more than I did by evaluating Cables A, B, and C separately and distinctly.

If I want to know if I like Cable A better than B, C, or, D, I need to have them available at the same time to make a subjective comparison.

In my case, I liked speaker Cable A enough that I let my wallet speak for me- I bought a set. If I decide to check out Cable B, or C, or whatever, and determine I like one of those better than Cable A, Cable A will go by the wayside and I'll buy the one I like better.


I believe that AK has just encountered every reviewer's nightmare: so many differences, with no common reference.


I thought the whole purpose of this evaluation program was to give folks, particularly those like myself who never really pursued upgrading cables/IC's to any degree, an opportunity to see for themselves if there was any perceived improvement over what they ordinarily use in their system. This thread seems to indicate that some think of it as an externally comparitive exercise where there will be members expounding on the relative merits of the different cable or I/C's being offered for evaluation, rating one to another. And I won't even get into the blind blah blah aspect.

O, and my apologies if I'm missing the boats.

[Negotiableterms]

Whaaa? No doubt I'm missing several boats at once in this whole particular topic, but....

1) If I, along with every other tester, have Cable R as my "reference" cables, it isn't clear to me how that helps me decide if Cable A, in hand yesterday, is superior to Cable B, in hand today, or C, in hand tomorrow. All I can say is that one or more of said evaluation cables was superior to Cable R. And if the rest of the world has the same Cable R, they can determine no more than I did by evaluating Cables A, B, and C separately and distinctly.

If I want to know if I like Cable A better than B, C, or, D, I need to have them available at the same time to make a subjective comparison.

In my case, I liked speaker Cable A enough that I let my wallet speak for me- I bought a set. If I decide to check out Cable B, or C, or whatever, and determine I like one of those better than Cable A, Cable A will go by the wayside and I'll buy the one I like better.

I thought the whole purpose of this evaluation program was to give folks, particularly those like myself who never really pursued upgrading cables/IC's to any degree, an opportunity to see for themselves if there was any perceived improvement over what they ordinarily use in their system. This thread seems to indicate that some think of it as an externally comparitive exercise where there will be members expounding on the relative merits of the different cable or I/C's being offered for evaluation, rating one to another. And I won't even get into the blind blah blah aspect.

O, and my apologies if I'm missing the boats.

As usual, you're not missing a thing.

If you start with the assumption that you'll never have the luxury of having A,B,C & D alongside one another, then the best you can do is to compare to a single R: "A was a lot brighter, B was not as bright, C was a little brighter...", etc. Not good, but the best you can do.

I think the relative merits thing is secondary to matching issues. If your system is already too bright, you don't want a cable that will make it worse. I thought the point of the exercise was to generate an idea of if a particular cable made any difference, and if so, what changes the cable made in various systems as a guide for members to use in buying.

I could easily be missing the boat, and walking right off the pier! :headscrat

[hifi_nut]

I´m not in line for this cable swap program ( how could I be? ) , so I feel pretty at ease to say that on top of all that´s been said above, I´d point out that our audible memory is very short indeed.
Jorge

[shrinkboy]

uh, oh...the feared cable thread has resurfaced

[Lefty]

uh, oh...the feared cable thread has resurfaced

But I've been silent on the subject :thmbsp:

Lefty

[Bigerik]

I am with toze on this. I never got it that this would be a definitive comparison of which cable is best. It was just a fun exercise for people to determine if they can actually hear any differences. No double blind testing or anything needed. No real worries about how long your accoustic memory is. Just a matter of actually having a listen in your own home, in your own system, to determine what sounds good to you. No prizes. No right or wrong. Can you hear a difference? Sure. Does it sound better than what you have? Great! Sounds worse? No problem. Move on.
The point of the exercise was just to have some fun. Tweak and play and listen to some music. Thats about all it amounts to.

[Negotiableterms]

With the goals narrowed to those, I'm with 'toze and Eric. I'd have liked to see the goals broadened so that the reviews would help me to select cables. Not a matter of "best", just a description of differences. It sounds like GaryP is contemplating the same thing, more or less.

But, more importantly, I'm not one of the reviewers, so I'll leave it to those doing the work to set the goals and processes. I've really enjoyed reading the reviews so far!

[GaryP]

Not a matter of "best", just a description of differences. It sounds like GaryP is contemplating the same thing, more or less.

Yep, that was my intention.

Sort of sorry to have started this thread, though.... maybe it deserves to die?

[tentoze]

Yep, that was my intention.

Sort of sorry to have started this thread, though.... maybe it deserved to die?


Not at all. This forum was created for such discussions.
.

[wineslob]

I am with toze on this. I never got it that this would be a definitive comparison of which cable is best. It was just a fun exercise for people to determine if they can actually hear any differences. No double blind testing or anything needed. No real worries about how long your accoustic memory is. Just a matter of actually having a listen in your own home, in your own system, to determine what sounds good to you. No prizes. No right or wrong. Can you hear a difference? Sure. Does it sound better than what you have? Great! Sounds worse? No problem. Move on.
The point of the exercise was just to have some fun. Tweak and play and listen to some music. Thats about all it amounts to.


Exactly.

[Jovinyl]

:smoke: I Am not part of cable swap or most of the cable discussions. I will say this, stock component cable to radio shack gold or types like that. I could not hear a difference if there was one. I made some cables with Belden 1694 and Canare Rca's, I heard a difference. Clarity might be the word I'm looking for. Now if I were to compare cables in this range I might be back in the I can't tell the difference position again. I don't really know. Point. the stock cable and Gold plated cable group might all notice a difference. Where the group that already have cables on the high end might have a harder time noticing a difference. so the group with radio shack change back give a listen then put in the new ones, and every body else put radio shacks in line before testing. something like that. every one should use radio shack cables for a reference point. this is just an Idea that I am hoping can be modified to help in the comparing of different cables. I will use it should the need arise. I might notice the Belden cable brings out more clarity in my system. I might notice canare cable kind of works on my highs and another on my lows. then I can compare them against each other. Hope this makes sense. I also thought nothing of having better cables but I tried it.

[luvvinvinyl]

I went throught this exact scenario, with demos of two power cables. First the Zebra PR-C12, then the Black Sand Black Max. I didn't have them both in my possession, concurrently, so head-to-head comparisons were impossible. The cable they replaced was a cable from some PC that had been lying around, best described as 'disposable'. I only tested each of these on the CDP, and I noticed similar improvements with both. I still owe a review on the second cable, but it basically just sounds like the first review. Cosmetics and construction are different, and price is very different, but otherwise, not much sonic difference, if any, that I could determine, under, admittedly, less than ideal conditions. I have replaced the stock cord with an aftermarket cable, (Thanks, Brian!) so I was the big winner; I learned that cables DO make a difference. Or, more correctly, they CAN make a difference, in MY budget system, for MY ears. I experienced the difference, in BrianB's Lector/Stingray/System Audio setup, but I frankly wondered if my gear would exhibit any improvement. If I was shopping for a power cable, I would want to get likely candidates from my local dealer, and do shootouts, to select one, to purchase.

For my money, the cable demo program is about educating the member, by broadening their experience, not about determining which cable is the 'Best' cable in the program.

[Bigerik]

With the goals narrowed to those, I'm with 'toze and Eric. I'd have liked to see the goals broadened so that the reviews would help me to select cables. Not a matter of "best", just a description of differences. It sounds like GaryP is contemplating the same thing, more or less.

But, more importantly, I'm not one of the reviewers, so I'll leave it to those doing the work to set the goals and processes. I've really enjoyed reading the reviews so far!

Even in the current format, I think you can find what you are looking for. If a cable is universally praised, it is probably worth an audition. Difficulty is that cables are very dependant on the components used. You pretty well have to hear them in your own system to find out if the are what you need. I went from one well respected cable (Kimber PBJ) to another (Grovers) and the Grover walked all over the PBJ in my system. Of course, YMMV. I don't think we will find any definitive answers in this test. But we should have a lot of fun doing it!

[Bigerik]

Yep, that was my intention.

Sort of sorry to have started this thread, though.... maybe it deserves to die?

No need for you to apologize or to let it die. I think you raised some very worthwhile points that needed to be raised and discussed!
:thmbsp:

[wineslob]

As one of the reviewers here is what I will do. Plug in said cables, make notes, and give an opinion within the constraints of my system. I think you just cant do anything more. Does it have merits? Of course. If we reviewers come to a "sonic consensus" its the same as an averaged or weighted response and will give our members a good rule of thumb to go by. Because we all have different systems, it may be even better than the mags.

[Bigerik]

As one of the reviewers here is what I will do. Plug in said cables, make notes, and give an opinion within the constraints of my system. I think you just cant do anything more. Does it have merits? Of course. If we reviewers come to a "sonic consensus" its the same as an averaged or weighted response and will give our members a good rule of thumb to go by. Because we all have different systems, it may be even better than the mags.

Sounds like a plan to me! :thmbsp: