First SET Experience.........

[KCM]

Hi Guys,

I was able to take home and audition a 300B SET amp this weekend. It is for sale on consignment at a local audio store. I don't know too much about it, as I didn't speak to the owner. It was hand built by someone in Canada, who I think is a distributor for transformers and such. Apparently, he does occasional custom built stuff and this amp is sort of his statement piece. I usually listen to a EL34 PP amp that was built by Paul Grzybek, aka "Bizzy B". He's a Fisher tube specialist near Chicago and has started to build a few amps of his own design. Here's a pic of mine :

[KCM]

I've been very pleased with it, but this SE amplifier was quite impressive. Somewhat different tonal balance, excellent separation of instruments, wonderful imaging, and the thing that most impressed me was the bass. It definitely had more low end extension than my amp. Here are a few photos of it:

[KCM]

another.........

[KCM]

I am considering buying it, but as you might imagine it's not cheap. I want to be sure, and not jump too quickly. As it stands, I have the option of listening to my tube amp (or my old Fisher 500C tube receiver) with my Gr Research Paradox 3's, then for a change of pace I have some SS stuff and a pair of Magnepan MG12's. If I buy this amplifier, something's got to go........

I like having options, but man............I miss that sound already:p: :p: :p:

[Thatch_Ear]

Thanks for the pics. Looks like an unusual set up. The drivers are back between power transformers which is not ordinary. I am guessing the smaller octal tube is a 5Y3 or simular rectifier for the driver tubes' power transformers. There is a choke on the power supply for the 300Bs and each has its own filament transformer. I think all the caps for the 300Bs are under the chassis and the Black Gate on top is for the drivers. Nice layout and great parts, I just don't get the drivers being back there by the power transformers where it is bound to be noisiest place on the chassis. I am sure the builder had his reasons and it does cut way back the amount of wiring it would require to have them in the front. Gains and losses. You always have to pick.
Thatch

[MikE]

Thanks for sharing your impressions on the PP vs SET. Your monikor looks familiar, where do you usually hang out at? Like yourself, I "graduated" from a EL34 PP amp to my current 2a3/45 SET and couldn't be happier! BTW - No disrespect intended toward PP owners, just my way of expressing my enthusiasm. The VAC+Sonatinas in my old system was VERY GOOD, and I'm sure for some (or many) users IS preferred to what I'm running now.

What I found PRINCIPALLY better with my 45 SET was also the bass. Not so much (or even) in the slam department but in the natural propulsion of the music. The bass had more variety and characther, very un-one (1) beat bass-like! The other attributes were as you mentioned but overall - with the 45 tube - was a spooky naturalness and neutrality to the sound that minimized DRAMATICALLY the distance between listener and technology. With SET (least 45) I'm listening to the music, with PP (least EL34) I'm listening MORE to the the equipment. After awhile I found that LESS rewarding. This has as much to do with my evolution as a listener - what I prefer in my replay pursuits - as my choice of equipment which should follow the latter, not the other way around.

MikE

[KCM]

"Your monikor looks familiar, where do you usually hang out ? "

I read a lot at AA and HD, but haven't posted much anywhere. I do know your buddy "TIC". I met him halfway between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati when he bought a pair of GR Paradox 1's from me.

[Thatch_Ear]

KCM,
Pardon my manners. Welcome to AK and thanks for thr SET moment. Remarkable when its in your system isn't it?
Thatch

[MikE]

Small world we live. I've chatted with Tom on a few occations and once we realized that we were "close by" I invited him to stop over whenever he was in Columbus next. Couple of months ago he came by with his Theta Miles CDP and Adhire he10.1's to hookup to the Moth amp. I like my AA front-end better but his speakers accounted for themselves very well. A good time was had by all.

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

This is a wide spread but considering it all still a small club. Surprising that the numbers are growing. Kind of like driving Model Ts everday, we are condidered low tech by the majority of people. They just don't know that we really drive Shelby Cobras in desguise.
Thatch

[TIC]

Hey MikE, Hey Ken (KCM), what up?!!!!!

Ken, I'm hoping to try the SET experience in my home soon. I'm slowly graduating from SS to PP and probably to SET soon. As MikE stated, I bought a pair of used Adire HE10.1's and I could not be more happy (considering the $).

Also, I got a nice little package today! A new Cary CD-308 showed up and initial impression is WOW!!!! I got it "very slightly" used and I think it is a keeper!

So, any of you SET guys want to recommend a great Inexpensive amp for me. I have heard MikE's Moth and LOVED it! Of course, I would like to spend less if it get's me a decent amp for the HE10.1's.

Enjoy,

TIC

BTW, this is my first post on this forum. Good to see you all!!!

[Thatch_Ear]

Build your own if you can't afford to buy the good stuff. 25% the cost and a general working knowledge of the amp for only a 100 hours or so of specialised labor. Such a deal!
Thatch

[MikE]

Good to see you! How did you find out about AK? Did you see my "System Pix" thread? Whata think of the bigger place? It sounds a good bit better, and as you can see I've removed the granite speaker platforms. I liked the results so much I decided to not put them back. The bass is much better, or if not "better" than the presentation has shifted earthward considerably, which by me is "better". I've been rolling rectifiers alot and the RCA 5u4 certainly adds even more to a rounder, deeper-hued sound. Not as light and airy as you heard. Of course, I haven't installed the Acme Audio "cryogenic" duplex yet, and that will definately help with the treble vibrancy.

Can't think of a recommendation for you other than maybe a used JK45 amp which go for under $1000, though they're infrequently advertized. The last one I saw for sale was due to $$$, not music related issues. I heard the Moth s45 on AudioGon you were considering went for $1900! My buddie dropped off his Melos Maestro pre-amp freshly factory upgraded, so I'm listening to a tubed pre for the first time in awhile. Initial impressions are not overly positive. But I haven't tried any of the other 4 sets of tubes yet. I'll post my results after a couple of weeks. See ya around.

MikE

[gonefishin]

Hey TIC...hope ya stick around a bit :)

So...yer lookin' for an amp...whatcha got now?...what size room?...what type of music do ya listen to?...how loud? You live in Ohio right? We have some audio meeting every once in a while down here...and one of the guys has a Korneff45...I'm sure if you told him you wanted to listen to your speakers with this amp he would bring it. It would be a little drive for ya...but hey...if that Kevin guy from diy cable can make it to almost every meeting...;) just kiddin'...be great to see you there.

You've got some great speakers there...one of the real values in audio today (by my standards)

[TIC]

As I am looking for inexpensive SET (or other) Tube amp suggestions, I'll list my current system parameters.

Electronics:

Cary Audio CD-308 or
Theta Digital Miles CD

Both have analog volume control and connect directly to amps

Monarchy Audio SM-70 (pair) can run stereo@25w/ch or mono@70
Very flexible-stereo, mono, bi-amp/vert or horiz, balanced or RCA

Dynaco MkIII pair-old, but good

Just sold an ASL AQ1003-good, but not better

Adire Audio HE10.1 upgraded internals and cabinet

Just sold Tyler Taylo Reference Monitors-preparing for SET

Room:

14x13x8 remodeled basement w/acoustic tile ceiling and carpet. Large sofa in middle of room. Speaker front edges @36" from wall, 6-7' apart, slight toe-in on 24" stands. Soft sofa is 6' in front of speakers with 5' behind it (computer work area is behind sofa).

Music:

You name it!
Female vocalist
Male vocalist
acoustic jazz and rock
folkish
Americana/midwest
chamber music
bluegrass

Artist:

Patricia Barber
Diana Krall
Holly Cole
Johnny Cash
Steve Earle
Lucinda Williams
U2
Rush
Alan Holdsworth
Bruce Cockburn
You name it!

I prefer acoustic or small groups vs. metal or large orchestra

Well, what do you think? I'm going to listen to Dave Dutill's Parker Audio model 95 speakers with his Decware Zen Select amp soon (see www.parkeraudio.net ). I don't know if the Zen has enough Umph for my speakers and room. I am interested in the Kornoff and Fi amps too. I loved MikE's Moth, but want to spend less if possible.

Now, If MikE every brought the Moth to Cincinnati, I might change my mind!!!!

GF, Where is your buddy with the JK in Ohio? Also, what about a Cary SLI 50? I know it's not SET, but I've read good things.

Enjoy,

TIC

[TIC]

Originally posted by MikE
Good to see you! How did you find out about AK? Did you see my "System Pix" thread? Whata think of the bigger place? It sounds a good bit better, and as you can see I've removed the granite speaker platforms. I liked the results so much I decided to not put them back. The bass is much better, or if not "better" than the presentation has shifted earthward considerably, which by me is "better". I've been rolling rectifiers alot and the RCA 5u4 certainly adds even more to a rounder, deeper-hued sound. Not as light and airy as you heard. Of course, I haven't installed the Acme Audio "cryogenic" duplex yet, and that will definately help with the treble vibrancy.

Can't think of a recommendation for you other than maybe a used JK45 amp which go for under $1000, though they're infrequently advertized. The last one I saw for sale was due to $$$, not music related issues. I heard the Moth s45 on AudioGon you were considering went for $1900! My buddie dropped off his Melos Maestro pre-amp freshly factory upgraded, so I'm listening to a tubed pre for the first time in awhile. Initial impressions are not overly positive. But I haven't tried any of the other 4 sets of tubes yet. I'll post my results after a couple of weeks. See ya around.

MikE


Uh MikE, I found out about the place from the e-mail YOU sent me!!

BTW, I did see your Pix....Cool,....... once I aclimated a bit, I thought your old room sounded great! Glad the new one is even better.

So, I should have bought that Moth when he was asking $1500, huh?!!!

BTW, my systems sounds better than ever. The Cary CD player has done wonders for my system. I'm going to try it in my buddy's Harron, ARC, Quad system this weekend. Should be WAY fun!!

Enjoy,

TIC

Class.......I need those amplifier suggestions by tomorrow!!!!!

[MikE]

I did, didn't I. I'll use the baby as my excuse... can't remember one day from the next.

Good news with the Cary. I'm curious how the Cary imparted those qualities you enjoy now that your other tube gear didn't, or do you think it had to do with something the Theta was introducing? Is the Cary adding something or eliminating, minimizing a certain quality you found objectionable?

Enjoy your friends system - that's what friends are for!

MikE

[TIC]

Current system was installed last night!! BTW, the two systems reside in the same space, but the 2-channel and HT systems do not share any components currently.

2-channel

Cary CD-308 w/volume control
Dynaco MkIII pair
Adire Audio HE10.1's on old target stands
Nordost super Flatline Bi-wire
Audioquest IC

HT

B&K AVR-202
Sony DVP-S7700 w/ ModWright mods
Sony SLV-M20HF VCR w/Smartfile
Jamo A510 "Art" Nearly flat wall mount speakers
Pioneer Iso-Drive S-DS1-K rear surrounds
Pinnacle Baby Boomer Sub
Toshiba 36" TV

Room is multi-use. Note my computer desk is behind the sofa(HP Flat-Panel Monitor in foreground). My work position is very near the "sweet spot" for HT and stereo...............COOL!!!!!

Still in progress, stay tuned.........

Enjoy,

TIC

[Thatch_Ear]

Tic,
Next time your going to fire up those Dynas try getting those flat cables set up so they don't coil. They can create inductance and really alter the sound. The only flat cables I listened to were not as wide as yours and were longer so that there were more turns but it caused a bit of a high pitched hardness to the sound. See if it changes anything, I am very curious.
Thatch

[MikE]

My buddie has Nordost RedDawn speaker cables and seeing that his amp is much closer to one pair than the other has to coil the extra cable around the base of the speaker (Silverline Sonatina). He's tried a dozen or so different speaker cables but the Nordost seem to usually to be back in place whenever I come over. I'll have to ask him what (if) he has noticed with the effect of coiling them about.

MikE

[TIC]

Thatch,

I'm trying another pair of H.E. speakers today (more on that later) and per the builder's suggestion, I made a pair of speakers cables using twisted pair of thin copper out of CAT-5e data cables.

These "cables" are VERY thin, but seem to be doing the job. I intentionally made them very short so I would not be forced to deal with the excess cable.

Enjoy,

TIC

[Thatch_Ear]

Just a thing I noticed at a DIY meet one time. Goertz flat ribbons and the room emptied, switched to DIY Litz braid and room filled back up. Same amp, CD and player and speakers. Inductance at an almost subliminal awareness level is the only thing I can think of. Looking back I am sorry I didn't uncoil the things to see what happened. One never knows,do one?
Thatch

[MikE]

What ever came of the SET exposure? You said you were impressed but that something had to go if you decided to pursue getting one. Now that some time has lapsed since the amp left I'm curious what your thinking is now on that subject (SET vs EL34).

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

Those MKIIIs have 6550/KT88s in them. Lots of power. Sold mine but they can drive speakers a lot of tube amps can't handle.

[KCM]

Originally posted by MikE
What ever came of the SET exposure? You said you were impressed but that something had to go if you decided to pursue getting one. Now that some time has lapsed since the amp left I'm curious what your thinking is now on that subject (SET vs EL34).

MikE

Hi MikE,

Had I been able to contact the owner, I probably would have bought it. I had lots of questions that the dealer couldn't answer, so I tried for two weeks to get in touch with him. No luck :mad: I decided to abandon the pursuit (at least for a while) when I realized that I was sort of branching off in two directions, and not doing either very well.

You see, I also have a pair of Magnepans that I love, and I didn't have an amp that really allowed them to sing. I happened to meet a local guy who has been building and modifying audio gear for 30 years. He is very "anti-tube", and has a "been there, done that" attitude about tube amps. I was quite argumentative, at first, insisting that my tube stuff sounded better than any solid state that I have heard. Well, .............. :eek: ............... he loaned me some Hafler gear (I know, I know) that he modified extensively, and I am just amazed at what I am hearing. It is _really_ impressive. I guess he knows his stuff :p: Needless to say, I bought it and have forgotten all about the 300b ;) He also set me up with some op-amps for my cdp and phono amp that have made improvements there, as well. I feel like this is the real deal, for me. I don't want to hear anything better, for a while :p: :p: :p:

Ken

[MikE]

I know first-hand what you mean as that parallels my situation (93db speakers/2wpc SET amp). Lucky for me the combo works well. If your happy with the speaker+SS amp good, live with it till that changes and then pursue something else.

I'm a big tube fan and especially 45 SET, but what is important is that your happy with your grouping of components. Sure it would be nice to have one more person to chat with about our positive results with SET but I'm not looking to convert anyone, just provide insight into my experiences and offer assistence if that is possible. Sounds like you managed quite well on your own.

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

It is really hard to beat the detail and imaging of Maggies especially for the great female vocalists.
While not having the large ribbon pannels I do have some small electrotatic speaker but being the stubborn guy that I am I have a PP amp driving them.

[Thatch_Ear]

Found this thread from a couple of years ago. I had forgotten about those ribbon cables and how much they changed the sound. The amp was a 300B and the speakers Shahinian Obelisks.