Speaker purchase!

[GeniX]

Right this coming week I start my search for a good pair of bookshelfs to get my 2-channel music setup going well. I have a Cambridge Audio D500SE CDP, Cambridge Audio C500 Pre, 2 x Monarchy Audio SM70 amplifiers...

I hope to have a good listen to as many brands as I can find in town, which currently seem to be:
B&W, Mackie, Event Electronics, Genelec, Monitor Audio, Tannoy, PSB, Infinity, KEF, Dynaudio, Mission, Image, Jamo, Mirage, Castle, Polk...

Ill keep y'all posted on my progress. This may take quite some time, but will be fun Im sure!

:spam:

[bully]

Fun is the whole point!
Speaker hunting is about as fun as it gets.

enjoy,
pete

[Don]

dont forget klipsch! :rolleyes: :p:

[GeniX]

thing is... I don't know if Klipsch is available locally... I know of places that stock it elsewhere in NZ, but then I'd have to get there somehow to listen to 'em (I don't have a car!)

[GeniX]

Im scheduled to do some listening on Saturday. I will be auditioning :

PSB Image (the bookshelf one)
KEF Q1
Castle Warwick
Possibly some Mirage bookshelfs

--
I was hoping for the Dynaudio Audience 42, but the store said that they are sold out - in New Zealand, and even Australia (where they apparently get the 42's from) are sold out.

Walt - u know if this is true? May have just been a slight fudge on the truth to stop me asking them to get some in.

[Walt]

Sorry no idea on the Dynaudio - I am currently out of the new speaker purchasing market for awhile ... :)

[GeniX]

Add some more to the mix! Im going to hear :
Monitor Audio Silver 3i / 4i
Image Studio Ref 402's
(possibly) Monitor Audio Gold 10

Lots of bookshelfs! However will I get thru em all?

I was hoping to add some B&W's to the mix, but its not likely to happen since the place in town I was hoping to hear B&W's at don't do the price range Im lookin at. In fact they dont have any B&W bookshelfs in stock so to speak.

[THOR]

Did I ask this yet? Why are you getting bookshelfs? Space considerations?

[ProAc_Fan]

B&W bookshelfs are plentiful and reasonably priced here in the frozen north. What model(s) are you interested in? I could get you a price on them here. BTW Ilike the B&W's and you really can't go wrong with any of their lineup. I also like the Dynaudio's and the Mirages. If you're going bookshelf I would also checkout the NHT's and if you can find them the ProAc tablette 50's.

Mike

[GeniX]

THOR: yeah - dont have space for floorstanders. If I did, I would get a pair.'

Proac_Fan: If I were to take you up on your offer, it would be cheaper for me to buy B&W within NZ. The reason I havent considered them is that I cant find them in my town. I could always buy from other B&W dealers and have them sent to me.

[GeniX]

What a day!! Ive listened to speakers until my ears were sore.

I cant really compare speakers, and most certainly by the end of the day could not really remember what the first lot sounded like.

The speakers I auditioned were some PSB, Monitor Audio Bronze, Monitor Audio Silver 4i, KEF Q1, Castle Acoustics Warwick, Energy XL series bookshelf, Mackie 824, Genelec (forget which model - the one thats about the same price as Mackie 624's)

I went with a friend of mine who also has some ear for certain audio qualities. All up I was not charmed with the day as a whole. I was glad to have heard all the speakers I did. I was faced continually with the problem of trying not to be too picky, or paranoid but still not wanting the salesmen to 'push' me around.

From salesmen who would not keep quiet while we were listening and trying to tell us about specs, reviews and how popular the speakers are - to salesmen who were obviously passionate about audio and trying to get across both the message that their store is all class and quality (implied - Im looking for some cheaper junker items than they tend to stock) but also trying to be realistic about what I need - to salesmen who seemed to decide themselves when we had heard enough of a track and just stopped the cd player asking if we want another track or to listen to other speakers. One feels compelled to just be blunt, bordering on rude with them - but doesnt expecting some form of proffesionalism but some of the sales people obviously dont treat customers by those rules. Yeah.

By the end of the day both me and my friend were tired. He solidified his point of view, having been in some indecision at the start of the day. I, by the end of the day, was not so sure. He wont admit it, but after all the crap one finds put forth by audiophiles, he has polorised himself away from anything the 'audiophile' industry puts forth. Thus he seems to reckon that audio forums, conversing with audiophiles and people on these forums is like a disease that makes me want to conform to what audiophiles expect of me.

Oh.. my head hurts. There may be more to come - next week I could be listening to a pair of Mackie 624's, and possibly some B&Ws, and a Polk model.

The main test material was:
Diana Krall - When I Look in Your Eyes - Track 2
Peter Gabriel - ??? (cant recall the CD title right now)
Loreena Mckennit (spelling!)

Here are my brief thoughts of the lot in case you're all interested:

Monitor 4i's --> lack of hi-end, not enough bass.
Monitor Bronze --> better than Monitor 4i's by quite a bit. Bit harsh on the hi-end (vocals).

PSB Image or such --> Dont bother. Muddy, no soundstage, boomy bass.
Energy XL --> Surprisingly good! Nice voice, reasonable bass IMHO. Detailed enough for me.
Proac --> Out of my price range by a couple hundred. Voices were IMHO very thin. Everything else was good. Very 'bland' sound (as my friend described it)

KEF Q1 --> all-rounder. Perhaps the voices were a bit lacking in 'substance'.
Castle Warwick --> Best sounding voices of all speakers! Diana's voice sounded very real. Lacked in the instruments - not a good representation.

Polk LS? --> out of my price range by $700, but certainly IMHO the best of the lot. Much like when I was shopping for headphones - these are the Grado's of the lot. Everything is well represented. Will be listening to a pair in my price range possibly this weekend coming.

Mackie 824 (proffesional monitors) --> Most detailed speaker I have heard yet! If its on the CD, it is played. I thought this is what I wanted, but I think if music isnt done well, it might sound worse on these. Im sure any vinyl would sound worse on these than off the not-so-detailed hi-fi speakers. Covers almost the whole audible frequency range equally well.

Genelec --> The model I heard I dont think I could distinguish sonically from the Mackie with any consistency. They sounded almost identical.

---

I wanted clear and precise. The proffesional monitors (Mackie & Genelec) are exactly that. I dont reckon I could listen to them for extended periods - its a hard thing to describe. Some speakers make you want to turn them up.. some make you want to turn them down... some make you want to have a break after listening to a couple tracks. Essentially a good speaker I reckon would make one want to do none of the aforementioned.

One possibility is to wait, and extend my price range. However I dont reckon I want to do that. I came home, listened to my Tannoy MX2's and thought - not terribly clear... not the deepest bass... but enjoyable for my music. One doesnt have to spend stupid amounts. I reckon 2 grand will make me happy enough to enjoy all the cd's I have time and time again.

Why not then stick with my Tannoy MX2's? Good point. I would like to take a couple of the speakers from these stores home for a weekend and put them up against my MX2's. If they can convince me over my MX2's, Ill take the best pair.

Well. Now I have heard. Even some Thiel CS3.6's just for fun. I didnt think much of them. They did an average job of reproducing the tracks played on them.

Yeah. Well thats all from me - one slightly dissapointed individual.

[Walt]

Sounds to me a bit like you took on too much in one day.

Also you need to check your expectations - you're buying bookshelves not floorstanders, and there are compromises with that design by definition (*waits for the flames to start*).

Narrow it down to a few, get them home with your amps, and see what sounds best. Trying to audition the entire range of bookshelves is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack. Yesterday your fatigued ears may have actually missed the real gem in there.

Give it some time, relax, don't rush into it. It's a lot of money you're spending on a pair of bookshelves (more than I would for example), so take it easy.

Good Luck. :)

[Matt Lafayette]

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Should you ever come across a pair of these I HIGHLY reccomend picking them up! I bought mine in '95 at full retail and loved 'em outta the box! They are (in my humble opinion) the greatest bookshelves ever made.
These are the puppies that got me into quality audio in the first place and I've heard nothing in their class to rival them since.
Good luck!
Matt

[Matt Lafayette]

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OOPS

[ProAc_Fan]

Not to be pompous but the "best" bookshelfs i've ever seen are these.......

[ProAc_Fan]

and right below them in "panache" if not sound quality are these..

[ProAc_Fan]

Thoots you never fail to crack me up!!:smsex:

[THOR]

He's not kidding those like the Pioneer HPM100's were called"Bookshelf" speakers. The HPM100's I had said "bookshelf speaker" right on the paperwork stuck on the back of it. They must of had much bigger bookshelves back in the day ;)

[THOR]

He's not kidding those like the Pioneer HPM100's were called"Bookshelf" speakers. The HPM100's I had said "bookshelf speaker" right on the paperwork stuck on the back of it. They must of had much bigger bookshelves back in the day ;)

[GeniX]

I go in for round two tomorrow. This time, having weeded out the ones I dont think Ill care to hear again, Ill be listening more intently to the speakers I did appreciate.

This will include a new pair I havent heard - Polk LSi7's which fall comfortably into my price range!

Ill let you all know what comes of it all.

[GeniX]

OK I have returned after more listening! This time not as many speakers.. only 3.

The whole experience was much nicer. The salesman I had at the store was the same one I had last time. He was willing to do whatever I requested, and at the same time kept very quiet. Only one little attempt at a sales pitch for the LSi9's above the 7's. I held my $2k ground, and he relented quickly.

I heard the LSi7's (Polk) and they were really nice all-rounders. Good bass, detailed midrange and hi-end. Compared to the LSi9's they were not as bassy. Everything else seemed about the same.

I heard the Castle Warwick again just for fun (salesman seemed a little annoyed at having to go get them again just for the sake of getting them.. but hey.. :)

I must still say the Castle are brilliant for voices. They beat even Proac bookshelfs hands down (IMHO ofcoz). Maybe a little colored, but they are very natural sounding. However they really dont have any bass. Apparently going down to 50Hz.. but at what? Probably like -6db... putting them up against the wall just destroyed the soundstage. Still no bass.

Pity. The Castle do have quite a stylish finish IMHO. At the moment I think Im sold on the Polk's.They are a 4ohm load which is quite a drive for my amps which already get very hot with 8ohm loads.

One store who said they would find out about some B&W's never called me back as promised. I have dismissed them anyhow. Monitor Audio have quite a name.. dunno how - their bookshelfs while sounding and looking nice are not worth their price tag./

yeah. The search has narrowed down a lot now. A few remain. Who will be the winner? We'll see over the next week!

[THOR]

All right you are getting "little" bookshelves right? Well to have any kinda bass at all you are gonna need a subwoofer right? Well get the warwicks and a sub and it sounds like you would have what you are looking for.

[GeniX]

Arranged to take the Polk LSi7's home for the weekend. Two of the other places who were going to get back to me regarding speakers have not. I followed one up and they did have the speakers in - just never bothered calling me.

I considered Castle with a sub as someone suggested, but I really do want that $2k cap - and not including the sub in it is like cheating ;-)

Thus I have decided that I will get a good pair of bookshelfs without a sub. I know some of you will gasp at this, but I think its like people who paint the image of a night and day difference between $1k speakers and $5k speakers... the difference may be noticeable straight off, but its not night and day. Same with a sub - I reckon it will add quite a bit, but Im happy without one and I dont think the drop in enjoyability is enough to make me buy a sub at the moment.

So I have the Polks in my home, and have been comparing them to my Tannoy MX2's (which are less than half the price of the Polks). The Polks don't go down as low on the specs - not by quite a bit, but seem to give better bass ??? ??? ???

Strange... voices such as Lisa Ekdahl or Diana Krall are more prominent on the Tannoy's which seem perhaps a little coloured. I must say I tend toward the Tannoys for voices. But the Polks just do *everything* else better. They are noticeably clearer.

They do border on being a bit harsh for me. Its good I have them for the weekend - will give me time to decide which side of that border they are on. I tried connecting a Tannoy to one channel, and a polk to the other (shouldnt be an issue as the amplifers are two seperate units and thus there should be no other factors apart from sensitivity on the equipment side).

Thus with the balance, I fake A-B'd them. This seemed to further my above opinion. It was a little difficult to hear the speakers for quality when the Tannoy is slightly louder at any given volume.

All up I really do like the Polks a lot. They have grown on me a lot since I last heard them at the store (I suppose this is what the store are counting on). On Monday I will either be taking back the speakers, or taking the money to them.

Tomorrow I will try get a pair of Mackie 624's to take home that I can compare to the Polks. I dont know how good my chances are since they want security that I can pay for them if they break. I cant pay for them. Not all at once.

Im counting on selling my amplifiers to fund the purchase of the Mackies if I take 'em. Given Im having difficulty selling my cdplayer, I dont reckon Ill be successful in selling my amps, but we will see.

Here are the Polks I have (in Ebony):
http://www.polkaudio.com/home/products.php?category=25&speaker=160

and here are the Mackies I may be able to take home:
http://www.mackie.com/products/hr624/hr624.asp

I always thought Polk to be very mainstream and certainly not a good hifi manufacturer. Believe me - their LSi series will change any prior opinion of them. I believe the LSi9's to better the ProAc's I heard (which I think are Tablettes). The proacs were priced at NZ$2300, and the LSi9's at NZ$2500

[bully]

I remember when Polk began selling his speakers. I think he started for all the right reasons.
Interesting comments on your eval & comparo with your Tannoy.
Have fun,

pete

[GeniX]

I remember when Polk began selling his speakers

grandpa :D

[bully]

Ouch :eek:
I may be getting older, but I refuse to grow up! :cool:

Y'know, I think the Polk's stay pretty true throughout the FR, so having a good 'bass' down to 90 or 80 Hz would be typical. More music there than down lower, anyway.

Yo, whippersnapper, I'm only 42 (base 12)! Startin' to think base 14 'for long, though ;)

[GeniX]

OK So I have the Mackie 624 Studio monitors to compare to the Polks in-home. Ive been listening all day, and I think I need to give it a break. THere such a thing as too much listening? I think so...

The monitors are clearer than the Polks. No doubt about that. Bass seems to come better from the Polks almost across the board, although a test with a tone generator showed the Mackies do in fact go a little lower than the Polks.

Ive even played the music on one Mackie (they're active), and used the balance to switch to a Polk. I am at a loss - I reckon I would be very happy with either of these great speakers. And I dont think I would look back and regret not taking the other.

Surprisingly enough, despite the clarity on the monitors, there are some tracks I have prefered *without* the extra bit from the Mackies, and have enjoyed it more on the Polks. A friend of mine was over with me most of the day. He brought with him his best mixed CD's. I must say that on the Mackies, the percussion sounds so good, its like what you would expect to hear live. The Polks still sound great, but still sound like a speaker.

You can hear so clearly every 'croak' (got a better word?) and alteration in Diana Kralls voice on the Mackies. The Polks give a good voice, but lacks a certain detail.

Ive now played quite a bit of my electronic music (The Shamen, Pet Shop Boys, Alphaville) and I am prefering it on the Polks. Perhaps because it relies less on detail, but wants a bit more bass?

Have no doubt about it though - when I say the Polks arent as detailed, what Im saying is that its when you play them side by side that you notice this. Same for the louder bass that the Polks give.

The other differences are that the Mackies have switches on the back which adjust the sound for half-space, quarter-space, and full-space and also allowing a +2db, 0, -2b adjustment to treble and bass. The Polks are pretty much as-is, and are passive as opposed to the bi-amped active Mackies.

The Mackies require me to sell my amplifiers for NZ$1700 to afford them. I think this could potentially be a stumbling block.

I have just noticed that the Mackies turn themselves off after a certain amount of non-use. The turn on as soon as they detect input again. Useful feature? I dont reckon so, but having just noticed it, I thought I would mention it.

Its scary having like NZ$5600 worth of speakers sitting on my desk. Most people I know would fall over at that. Two years ago, and I would have too!

This is going to be a very tough decision. I guess tomorrow I would have gotten over the initial excitement, and may listen again with new ears.

[bully]

That was exactly the point of "monitor" speakers, before that term became somewhat over-used.
That also gets to the point of some of the 'knocks' against true monitor speakers when used in the home environment: they are extraordinarily flat in response, and "too" accurate: they can reveal any 'problems' or weaknesses in the system. If y'all want big boomy bass, monitors would not be your choice, for example.
Not having heard the Mackies', but aware of their reputation for good pro gear, I'm not surprised by your comments.

Happy hunting, GeniX!
Pete

[GeniX]

has been made. I will take the Mackies (624's) back to the store and tell them what great speakers they are, but sadly I will not be purchasing them.

I am keeping the Polk LSi7's. I will pay for them this morning.

[Walt]

Well done, congratulations ... enjoy your new toys.:)

[ProAc_Fan]

I hope you enjoy your Polks Genix. It wouldn't have been my choice ( obviously) but to each his own. How do the Polks rate in build quality and just plain looks compared to the ProAc's? The website photo wasn't very flattering. Do they look better in person and how much do they weigh?


Mike

[THOR]

Yeah true monitors are for the sound engineers to use to find any errors in the recordings not for enjoyment.

[bully]

Congrats, GeniX!
I think a wise choice, but I don't want to sound like your grandpa!
;)

Now you have at least 18 months for enjoyment, then you can start pondering your set anew. Man, ain't this hobby great, or what!?

Pete

[GeniX]

Yeah - the Polks weigh 21lbs each. They are quite solid speakers. The wood on the sides (Ebony finish), and hi-gloss top,front and back. Although I leave the covers on - so they just assume a plain black cover with a little 'PolkAudio' badge at the bottom. You can slightly see the light reflecting off the driver through the cover (grille?).

The website pic does not do them justice. It wasnt until I set them up at home that I quite realised they are very visually pleasing. However, that isnt why I bought them - its a nice extra tho' :D

Driver is very small tho' - worries me a bit, but they give good volume and go down to 50Hz. Not as detailed as the Mackies. If I could liken it to listening to a raw recording (Mackie), or applying a slight noise filter (Polk) and listening. I do like it with some music, but if the music is recorded well, the Mackies will certainly make it sound better than the Polks.

All paid for this morning. I now officially own these cool speakers, which come with a 5-year warrantee which even covers the drivers being blown by me driving them too hard. Now theres something that not all guarentees will cover. Usually if they can determine that it was any other fault than poor manufacturing, they wont cover it.

I am very sure this series put Polk up as a major player for high fidelity sound. Their RT series was not much to talk about IMHO.

[GeniX]

Oh yes, Proac_Fan - in answer to your questions, I cannot say I have looked closely at the build of the Proac's.

The Polks feel structurely solid - and thats not just from their weight compared to other bookshelfs. Visually I reckon Polk & Proac have gone different routes, yet both are in-person quite nice speakers.

THe Proacs dont have good pictures on their site IMHO - the real deal are a lot nicer.

I find the Polks to resemble my Grados in a lot of ways, which is probably why I liked them so much more than other bookshelfs under NZ$2k. The Proacs I did hear can best be described as 'bland' (which can be an appealing quality - very little listening fatigue IMO), but more so lacked substance in voices I felt. (test material was Peter Grabiel, Diana krall and Loreena Mckennit)