HD-DVD vs. DVD

[Army]

I was reading the lastest (August) copy of Popular Mechanics and they had a short article with the same title on page 32 comparing the lastest greatest DVD or the new tech. HD-DVD players.

They ran a test on the Toshiba HD-A1 at $500 (first on the market) and the new Philips DVP5960 at $80 that is a standard DVP with upconvert which can take a standard dvd disc and upconvert it to 720p or 1080L.

Their findings, the Phillips was almost as good as the more expensive Toshiba!

Anybody tried one of the Phillips 5960's yet? Seems like the smart way to go!

[Jack G]

It would be interesting to know what TV they used, its size and if it was 1080p or 720p. What discs did they compare, and what was the output set at.
You may find this interesting:
Home theater review (http://www.hometheatermag.com/discplayers/0506toshiba/index.html)

Here's a review of its bigger brother (same electronics, different housing).
HD XA1 (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=1473&page_number=1)

enjoy,
Jack

[Daytona]

The Toshiba HD-A1

This is not a true HD-dvd player because is can not output a 1080p signal or 5.1+ lossless audio. On paper HD-dvd and bluray are far better then DVD but since we do not have players for either we will not know.

[Jack G]

This is not a true HD-dvd player because is can not output a 1080p signal or 5.1+ lossless audio. On paper HD-dvd and bluray are far better then DVD but since we do not have players for either we will not know.
Not true. Many of the newer 1080p TVs can deinterlace the 1080i signal to true 1080p. Yes, I have an HD DVD player-its fantastic-better then cable or OTA HD. DVDs aren't even close.
Jack

Edit: I should say that a good HD DVD is better than anything I've seen. Like everything else, some are better than others. Also, The HD A1 is also a killer upscaling DVD player. Far better than my Oppo. I keep my Oppo for its multi-region abilities.

[Army]

Thanks Jack for the links, very informative as is your reply!

From what I read the Toshiba HD-A1 and it's bigger brother both have a few hurdles too jump and or refinements to be made, this technology has a ways to go, from infancy to main stream!

Speculate for a minute,do you think the lesser Phillips upconvert technology will be incorporated into the high end so the dvd's that we all have purchased so far can be viewed with a much better picture?

Personally I would think a company such as Sony would make that leap of faith, maybe :scratch2:

[Duffinator]

Not true. Many of the newer 1080p TVs can deinterlace the 1080i signal to true 1080p. Yes, I have an HD DVD player-its fantastic-better then cable or OTA HD. DVDs aren't even close.
Jack.I'll second that. The HD DVD's I've seen so far are amazing looking. I watched 15 minutes of the Last Samuri on a 61" Samsung 1080P DLP and it was flat out the best looking picture I've ever seen outside a movie house. Even my wife was amazed at the PQ. The bummer is my HDTV is over five years old and does not have a digital input.

[Army]

PS: I might add I just purchased my first HD TV a few weeks ago!

So I know almost nothing, but am trying to come up to speed!

Go easy on this old fart and explain in detail, in laymen terms please :thmbsp:

[Duffinator]

Speculate for a minute,do you think the lesser Phillips upconvert technology will be incorporated into the high end so the dvd's that we all have purchased so far can be viewed with a much better picture?Yes, what we are talking about here are deinterlacing and scaling a 640x480 image to 1920x1080. There are several relatively inexpensive players that are highly rated and work fantastic. I can't imagine any HD or BD players not incorporating good scalers and deinterlacers for good old 480P DVD.

Here's a Sony (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=hav_DVD_DVDPlayers&ProductSKU=DVPNS75H&TabName=feature&var2=) for you to look at.

[Jack G]

I'll second that. The HD DVD's I've seen so far are amazing looking. I watched 15 minutes of the Last Samuri on a 61" Samsung 1080P DLP and it was flat out the best looking picture I've ever seen outside a movie house. Even my wife was amazed at the PQ. The bummer is my HDTV is over five years old and does not have a digital input.

Yea, the HD players have some quirks, but to Toshiba's credit, they have been giving out free firmware upgrades via an ethernet port in the back or a CD mailed to the owner (your choice). Its the best upscaling player I've ever seen. If you can afford it, get for the DVD player aspects, regardless of the HD aspects. If not, then I recomend the Oppo 971H for $200. Its also very good upscaler.
Jack

Edit: So, what TV did you get?

[Army]

So, what TV did you get?

Toshiba 50H12 used, I wanted to get into the swing of this without the sticker shock, ground floor and learn a thing or two before I go deeper into the pocket.


Thank you both Duff and Jack I'm learning a lot, much appreciated!

[Duffinator]

Toshiba 50H12 used, I wanted to get into the swing of this without the sticker shock, ground floor and learn a thing or two before I go deeper into the pocket.Does that set have a DVI or HDMI input?

[Daytona]

Not true. Many of the newer 1080p TVs can deinterlace the 1080i signal to true 1080p.

like I said it is not a true HD player and can not output a 1080p signal, what does the TV have to do with the player? Here is what I find funny the HD-dvd is 1080p but the player down scales it to 1080i and then by other means you have to upscale back to 1080p, why not wait for a proper player?

The HD A1 is also a killer upscaling DVD player.

Its not bad for the price more of a bang for the buck deal.

Its the best upscaling player I've ever seen.

No, try the denon DVD-5910CI.
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3127.asp

[Jack G]

like I said it is not a true HD player and can not output a 1080p signal, what does the TV have to do with the player? Here is what I find funny the HD-dvd is 1080p but the player down scales it to 1080i and then by other means you have to upscale back to 1080p, why not wait for a proper player?



Its not bad for the price more of a bang for the buck deal.



No, try the denon DVD-5910CI.
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3127.asp

Going from 1080p to 1080i isn't downscaling, its interlacing. Get your facts right. That's where the TV comes in, to deinterlace it back to 1080p. That whole 1080p schtick is just a red herring. Few TVs take 1080p input anyway, including mine, so the point is moot. You want to wait? For Blu-ray? Second generation? By all means go ahead.
Jack
Edit: I haven't seen the Denon, so my comment stands.

[uofmtiger]

I think there may be some confusion related to a player problem vs a movie problem. The player should do just as Jack G described if your TV has the ability to de-interlace the 1080i signal to 1080P. However, Warner Bros has been reported to have issues with the way they handle the new HD format:

the problem is two-fold,

1. that "older" masters are being used.
2. that these old 1080i60 masteres with 3-2 pulldown already applied are NOT being properly deinterlaced for 1080p24 mastering for HD DVD... they are being *bobbed* to "line double" for progressive encoding on HD DVD... forever screwing up the image with hard-coded artifacts that can't be deinterlaced away by an outboard deinterlacer in the future.

It would be better to master these as literal 1080i60 or do proper 3-2 pulldown for 1080p24 or to NOT MASTER THEM AT ALL and wait for appropriate processing to become available. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683474&page=4&pp=30


I am personally waiting for the players to mature before I jump on board. There are several advantages to waiting and the one of the most important being the lossless formats like DTS-HD or at least Dolby TrueHD in 5.1 surround. Also, the 720P scaler on the Toshiba appears to be lacking, so that affects a lot of people.

That being said, the Toshibas are a bargain for a new technology. I paid more for my first DVD player and many paid more for their first VCR than what these things cost.

[Jack G]

Yea, WB has admitted it messed up some of the masters. They have stated that Enter the Dragon will be the last to be improperly proccessed. Its only been about 5 discs done that way, and they still look better than the DVDs.
As for the scaler at 720, it upscales DVDs to 720 just fine, but downscaling HD to 720 is crap-it bobs. Second Generation won't be until some time next year.
Jack

[Army]

Does that set have a DVI or HDMI input?

I'm not sure, what are they? Something other than component video input, which this model has!?

This set maybe too old of design :dunno:

[uofmtiger]

Yea, WB has admitted it messed up some of the masters. They have stated that Enter the Dragon will be the last to be improperly proccessed. Its only been about 5 discs done that way, and they still look better than the DVDs.
As for the scaler at 720, it upscales DVDs to 720 just fine, but downscaling HD to 720 is crap-it bobs. Second Generation won't be until some time next year.
JackI already have a DVD player that scales nicely to 720P, so I am going to wait it out for a machine that scales HD to 720P a bit better. I know I could just feed the 1080i to my TV and let it do the scaling, but I am in no hurry. I still think the player is a bargain for those with the right (1080i or 1080P) TVs and want more HD content.

I do have a buddy that offered to loan me his player to see how it looks on my TV, but I have not got around to taking him up on the offer.

[Daytona]

Edit: I haven't seen the Denon, so my comment stands.

Nice play dumb when someone shows you some real equipment. I have not heard the new Mcintosh XRT2K speakers does that mean I can think my martin logans are better?

That whole 1080p schtick is just a red herring. Few TVs take 1080p input anyway, including mine, so the point is moot.

That was the whole point of a HD format the 1080p signal and lossless audio! Else what is the point of spending money on something that does not better what we have?

want to wait? For Blu-ray? Second generation? By all means go ahead.

I will wait until these HD players have been fixed and then buy a real nice top end denon to replace my Mcintosh MVP-861.

[Daytona]

am personally waiting for the players to mature before I jump on board. There are several advantages to waiting and the one of the most important being the lossless formats like DTS-HD or at least Dolby TrueHD in 5.1 surround.

I agree and I find it funny how people will jump on a bandwagon and support something that is new just because it is new.

[Duffinator]

I'm not sure, what are they? Something other than component video input, which this model has!?

This set maybe too old of design :dunno:There are few if any players that will upscale via component outputs. So you need a digital input to take advantage of the upscaling of 480 players or the 1080 output of the newer HD and BD players. Check your manual or the back of the set to see if you have digital inputs. My Toshiba 56H80 doesn't have digital inputs so I'll be waiting for Sony and Toshiba to either unify the formats or for one to come out the winner.

Daytona, come on, comparing a $500 HD DVD player to the Denon 5910 is like comparing a Chevy to a Mercedes. The 5910 retails (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/238.asp) for seven times as much as the Toshiba. None the less, the HD picture on the Toshiba is better than any 480 upscaled image including the Denon.

[Daytona]

Daytona, come on, comparing a $500 HD DVD player to the Denon 5910 is like comparing a Chevy to a Mercedes.

No one said anything about price.

None the less, the HD picture on the Toshiba is better than any 480 upscaled image including the Denon.

Says who? There is more to a quality picture then pure resolution plus with the denon you can output a 1080p signal.

[Duffinator]

No one said anything about price.



Says who? There is more to a quality picture then pure resolution plus with the denon you can output a 1080p signal.I've seen them both so that's my opinion. Have you seen them both? You compared the Denon to the Toshiba not me and I seriously doubt Army is going to spend that kind of money on a player when in his original post he mentions the Philips at $80.

Problem with a 1080P output is there are only a couple of projectors that will accept a 1080P input. I'd prefer the flexability of a 1080P output but it's not a deal breaker for me at this time. I have a Sharp 45" LCD in my bedroom that displays 1080P but it only accepts a 1080i input. Whether an HD DVD player has 1080i or 1080P output has no relevance to Army's original question.

[Daytona]

You compared the Denon to the Toshiba not me

Jack G brought up the point so I thought I would post some real equipment.

Problem with a 1080P output is there are only a couple of projectors that will accept a 1080P input.

And? That is why I see HD-dvd as irrelevant right now.

Most of the software is superior to DVD but we do not have a player so once again it is pointless to argue about it.

[Jack G]

Jack G brought up the point so I thought I would post some real equipment.
No, you quoted me but you still didn't read what I wrote.
Go back and read the post.
Jack

[Army]

Daytona, a word to the wise, I suggest you tone down your replies a little. Your replies are starting to sound overly aggressive and borderline trollish!

It's one thing to have a strong opinion, another to use a little tact in voicing them.

[RichPA]

... so I thought I would post some real equipment.



"Real equipment?" Who do you think you are?

[Duffinator]

To get back on track: So Army does your TV have any digital inputs?

[Army]

To get back on track: So Army does your TV have any digital inputs?

I just checked and it doesn't look like it does.

[uofmtiger]

That was the whole point of a HD format the 1080p signal and lossless audio! Else what is the point of spending money on something that does not better what we have? The point is to have a DVD player that puts out 1080i source material. While the upscaling on the Toshiba may be good, most people are buying it to play the 1080i DVDs.

[Duffinator]

The point is to have a DVD player that puts out 1080i source material. While the upscaling on the Toshiba may be good, most people are buying it to play the 1080i DVDs.Yep. :yes:

Army, if your TV does not have a digital input you are spinning your wheels with an upscaling DVD player. If your new set is HDTV capable it will display a 480P input and that will be an improvement over an interlaced picture. Maybe some OTA or sat/cable HDTV is in order?

[botrytis]

What DvD's are 1080i resolution? None that I know - all DvDs are 480p currently and that is why Blu Ray and HD-DvD were developed so the resolution can go up on the sources. Upsampling can lead to errors and bleeding in the picture, that is why any Movie converted TO IMAX format goes through error correction, etc.

Dave

[Army]

Yep. :yes:

Army, if your TV does not have a digital input you are spinning your wheels with an upscaling DVD player. If your new set is HDTV capable it will display a 480P input and that will be an improvement over an interlaced picture. Maybe some OTA or sat/cable HDTV is in order?


Thanks Duff, I'm learning, really appreciate your take on this, I had that feeling that I was screwed from reading this thread and the links!
I need to look into cable HDTV, but the prices are very high out here in the sticks for basic cable and HS net :sigh:

Hopefully the big players in the HD-DVD wars remember who they sold all the earlier sets to and provide us with a medium to cover the gaps. Then again the smaller players without the major marketing will cover us, maybe.

[uofmtiger]

Army, if your TV does not have a digital input you are spinning your wheels with an upscaling DVD player. The IO Data Linkplayer upscales over component if you do not update the firmware after November 2005 (or there abouts). You may have to find one used because I am not sure if the new IO Data units ship with the update or not. Up to at least Feb 2006, it was possible to roll back, but I am not sure if that is still the case because I am just sitting on my firmware update of November and have no plans to ever update it again.

The IO Data Linkplayer has a ton of other things that I would recommend it for, but you may want to read the review I linked on my webpage for more info.

[Duffinator]

Thanks Duff, I'm learning, really appreciate your take on this, I had that feeling that I was screwed from reading this thread and the links!
I need to look into cable HDTV, but the prices are very high out here in the sticks for basic cable and HS net :sigh:

Hopefully the big players in the HD-DVD wars remember who they sold all the earlier sets to and provide us with a medium to cover the gaps. Then again the smaller players without the major marketing will cover us, maybe.You're welcome. But the manufacturers made that decision about four years ago. A year after I purchased my set. The reason for the change to digital inputs has to do with digital rights management, or making it more difficult for consumers to copy the new format DVD's. Like UofMTiger posted there have been a couple of players that will upconvert over component inputs but they are few and far between. Enjoy your set for now and as this new format war gets ironed out in a couple of years maybe you'll want to upgrade your set then. Prices on all of the new LCD, Plasma, and DLP sets have been dropping in price and will continue to do so for a few more years.

[Jack G]

I do have a buddy that offered to loan me his player to see how it looks on my TV, but I have not got around to taking him up on the offer.

You may wish to take him up on it, just for giggles. :yes:
Jack

[Duffinator]

Army, I was visiting the other audio website that I spend too much time on and found a DVD player that upconverts to 1080i and P via component inputs. Maybe this (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/NeoDigits-Helios-HVD2085p1.php) will work for you. :yes:

[Army]

Army, I was visiting the other audio website that I spend too much time on and found a DVD player that upconverts to 1080i and P via component inputs. Maybe this (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/NeoDigits-Helios-HVD2085p1.php) will work for you. :yes:


Thanks Duff, price seems fair, I'm going to look into that :thmbsp: