View Full Version : DIY interconnects and mains
OdyClub
06-19-2002, 12:09 PM
I have been wanting to make my own cables for the longest time. I'll be working on a few projects this year and I might document them if there's any interest.
Anyone else out there with CAT 5 or CAT 6 speaker wire?
I'd be interested. Couple of months ago I replaced my "Audiophile-grade" Silverline Audio (copper) speaker cables with a DIY 24awg 99.999% pure silver wire W/20awg teflon. I'm using a bare wire connection between the Moth s45 SET and the Sonatinas. I luv this stuff on the top post! For now the Silverlines remain on the bottom till I can experiment with either a 12awg continous cast copper or another run of the 24awg silver. I'm also researching my first DIY interconnect project.
MikE
bully
06-20-2002, 05:37 AM
Just received a 100+ feet of Vampire speaker wire, good deal from eBay. Otherwise, a couple of hundred feet of Carol's best grade of speaker wire (at half the MSRP, still a $1.10 per foot) is the most expensive I've bought.
I don't know where all the speaker wire goes! I've also just got a second 100-ft spool from Parts Express. Seems like I always need some runs that I don't already have (in particular, the ends, either spades and bananas, or spades and spades, or bananas and pins, etc.).
I do recall seeing some neat, inexpensive diy wires and patchcords--mebbe even on the 'old' AU site.
pete
WildWest
06-20-2002, 07:36 PM
Cat 5 or Cat 6 speakers cables? You know, I looked into this at one time for I had found a nice web site showing how to build some excellent cables of this type. Since I just got done pre wiring a local lumber yard for DSL and had a good amount of wire left over, I thought that maybe I would want to do this. But something about that configuration bugged me. (Usually when something bugs me like that it is from the old days of school and fundementals) So I did some digging on line and sure enough. A cable of that type adds more capacitance to your signal. My speakers being 4 ohm already why, that is something that I didn't want.
Originally posted by WildWest
Cat 5 or Cat 6 speakers cables? <snip>....A cable of that type adds more capacitance to your signal. My speakers being 4 ohm already why, that is something that I didn't want.
WildWest,
The higher the impedance of the transmission line, the more attenuation you will get of high frequencies from the shunt capacitance of the line. Since the 4 ohm load in this case pretty much makes the speaker run a 4 ohm transmission line, a few 10's of picofarads per foot of capacitance is going to have negligible effect. If the load was 600 ohms, different story, but wade a minute!!! Aren't records recorded in studios using twisted pair midrophone cable inside a shield (lots of shunt capacitance) at 600 ohms? Doesn't seem to hurt the sound of records.
I wouldn't worry about it. Get heavy #12 lamp cord, that is all you need, unless your speaker runs exceed 100 ft.
Seems to me RG-8 ought to make fine speaker cables. It sure as heck aint good enough for RF but ought to be pretty flat from DC to at least 20 KHz. :)
Rob
WildWest
06-24-2002, 05:51 PM
Hmmmm interesting point. Well I had some longer cable runs so I was a bit concerned is all. I didn't want the capacitance and I still don't no matter how small I guess. I just use # 12 99.9% pure copper conductors and it works well enough I reckon. RG 8 you say? HEY! I got a TON of RG 6, quad shieled too! Howzzz bout that?
You know...A few months back as I was climbing around on a strip malls roof doing an estimate, I saw a big a s s run of some cable that was one pair of RG 6 or 8 under one sheith but this had a copper stranded core. Must have been some kind of Dish on that roof for a bar or something at one time eh? Anyway, the wire clearly had been abandoned and there was easily 100 plus feet of it. Somehow ( don't ask me how ) it jumped off the roof right into the back of my truck. AMAZING!! ;)
WildWest,
Trouble with RG-6 (cable TV wire) is that most of it doesn't contain much copper, and the diameter of the center conductor is pretty thin. RG-8 , commonly used up towers for CB is at least all copper and the stranded center conductor is equivalent to about #14 AWG. If you could find RG-9 or RG-214 you will find two overlayed solid silver wire braids and a silver multi-stranded center conductor that is close to #13 or #12 AWG. That's the stuff I'd use if I thought there was anything to be gained over lampcord. I've even got hundreds of feet of it, but need it for the radio telescope. At several gigahertz what you use for 'interconnects' DOES make a difference.
Rob
WildWest
06-24-2002, 06:53 PM
Kewl Rob! But clear this up for me if you would be so kind. When you say, "most RG 6 doesn't contain much copper and the diameter is thin". So a copper core RG six cable has a low copper content as well as being a small gauge, something like 18?
I am suprised to hear that a copper core RG 6 cable isn't basically pure copper (99.9%) like the THHN that I use all the time for line (off the grid) voltage. I never asked that question when purchasing RG 6 from my wholesale supplier. I always assumed when it was a copper core it was just that, not a lower ratio copper content.
Radio telescope you say? NEAT! What's your background Rob?
WildWest,
From Reference Data For Radio Engineers, Howard Sams/ITT:
JAN Type RG-6A/U, center conductor copper covered steel #21 AWG. Shield braiding, inner silvered copper, outer copper.
The stuff I see in CATV uses a foil 100% outer with a tinned copper loose weave braid over top. Not much copper cross section for low frequency P O W E R.
One of my many hats says SETI radioastronomer since the early 80's. I take a bigger interest in random noise than most folks.
Rob
WildWest
06-24-2002, 07:47 PM
What is being used here in Tucson by Comcast and therefore installed by the industry as a whole in this area, is what the Cable installers called "quad shield RG/6". I found it to be of a much heavier constuction from it's UV/PVC coated insulation to its heavy weave braid. I remember the guy really making it a point to say that it was a solid copper core cable. GEZZZZZ Rob, now you have me going out to the wire pile and cutting off a piece to double check! See how you are!? (snicker) Anyway, I will tell what I find. :)
Oh heck yes, in your business one has big concerns with random noise. You would know! Hmmmm, I might be pickin your brain from time to time. Sounds like me..."many hats". Funny how you get more of those hats as you get older eh? ;)
Canadian eh? My best friend growing up through school was a Canadian. Funny how we met. I am from Rochester New York. He was from the opposite side of Lake Ontario. I mean really, we both lived in neighborhoods right by the lake. So in the second grade we meet here 3,000 miles away in Tucson, Arizona. Friggin unreal or ?
:dunno:
calsaint
06-29-2002, 04:57 PM
Hiya.
I did a 27 pair braid of Cat5 for my speaker cables per ChrisVHs instructions on his website. Total bear on the fingertips, but based on what I've auditioned I think I ended up with a pair of cables that'd be tough to beat for the dough.
His page is at geocities.com/venhaus1
Wardsweb
06-29-2002, 05:07 PM
You want copper? I got your copper cable!
http://www.nobbi.com/gallery/bts/other/heliax.jpg
:D :D
Beat this!
Well as long as were talking 'interconnects' why fool around? I have some here that is perfect for stereo with the 6 conductive 2" wide x 1/4" thick aluminum busses wired in parallel pairs of three, or for bi-amping or even tri-amping. This stuff is VERY low inductance and the capacitance is comparable to coaxial cable. I have about 400 feet in all for sale. Comes in straight ten foot sections that you bolt together. I also have 90 degree 'E' and 'H' bend sections (to borrow from microwave waveguide terminology). CSA and UL rated. Make me an offer! :)
Rob
Wardsweb
06-29-2002, 05:41 PM
:lmao:
you break me up!
Standby to copy
Houston we have problem :D
over
Wardsweb,
I ain't lyin'. This stuff IS in my barn and I need the room. I HAVE to sell it. :)
Rob
Wardsweb
06-29-2002, 05:53 PM
I don't doubt you one bit. It's just if my stereo pushed enough power to utilize interconnects in the microwave 1 Gig and up range, either my meter on my house would burn up or I'd fry all the squirrel for half a block. :D
are these cat5 braids worth it to make?? what does everyone think?
http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
calsaint
06-29-2002, 11:33 PM
Like I said above, they were for me.
Chris consistently posts on AA not to bother if you don't have the teflon covered strands, though. I got mine from MECI
What do some of the regulars think?
I made an interconnect once out of 12 pair telephone PABX inside cable. It was 12 twisted pairs of #22 AWG solid in a single grey outer PVC sheath. I connected all the 'tips' (one marked side of each pair) and all the 'rings' (the other side of each individual pair) together at each end of the cable. I never ran any comprehensive tests on it, just used it to drive one of my HF horns for 20 years. This is an easy way to get something similar to the CAT-5 DIY cable just described without having to go to summer camp to learn how to weave. :)
Rob
WildWest
06-30-2002, 06:32 PM
Well Thor... if it were me I just wouldn't bother. To many other things I can be doing. If I thought for one second that building such cables would improve my sound to a degree worth putting the effort into it why, I would do it in a heartbeat! Stick with your 14, 12 or maybe 10 gauge 99.9% copper wire and you can spend better time like uhhhh listening to the music and slammin a few cold ones! WOOHOOO!!
Well you asked soooo, there be my .02 cents. :zoom:
Well I didn't think I could make the commitment to do all that work anyways ;)
Why is there all this hullabullo about cables anyways? Back when I started this audio trek I read a scientific paper posted in the forums of AR that showed that all you needed was a certain guage of wire due to the length of the run and it explained scientifically why just plain copper lamp cord worked as well as big money cables, I think it is a famous article and was posted in one of the big audio mags back in the day.
poorboy
07-05-2002, 07:17 AM
Hey Guys, i'm new to this site, and i'm very much enjoying your discussions.
Now, the reason i'm writing. I run the cat 5 cable for my HT and my 2ch systems. I can say that they do make a difference and are worth the effort. Before using the cat5 I was running basic 12 guage and IMHO the cat5 was a big change. The bass extenstion was much better, not boomy or muddy, just deeper. The mids and highs are very nice. I run them bi-wired into my missions M71. They take a little patience to make, but worth it.
Oh, by the way, I didn't braid them, my friend from the west coast who is a bit of a sailor did it for me.
shibby
Poorboy,
Your post has raised an issue I have that I'd like to share.
At the risk of sounding patronizing, and I'm not trying to be...
It makes no sense from an engineering perspective that your bass would have undergone the improvements you note with the change to Cat-5 unless your 12 gauge wire previously used was nichrome resistance wire. In this case the added series resistance with the speaker would partially counteract the damping factor control from the amplifier.
Don't throw out that #12 wire. It could come in handy for thawing out pipes.
There is a lot of marketing hype in the audio marketplace designed specifically to target the unwary consumer and convince them to open their wallets. The speaker cable, ..sorry 'interconects' arena is one of the biggest areas of fraud going IMO. Wether you pay outrageous $$$ for glitsy, well marketed commercial products, or save and DIY, the laws of physics are the same. It is my hope that through forums like this one some of these myths can be dispelled.
Another big one I've recently noted is for power interconnects. :eek: Unless you change the entire line from your amp back to the hydroelectric dam, and re-wind the power station's transformers and alternators with pure silver wire, how is changing the last 6 feet of the path gonna make a bit of difference? Fact is, even if you did, it wouldn't. Copper is a very good conductor, and the way aluminum is used on the high tension parts of the circuit, it is too.
Oh and while I'm on the soap box, I just first saw this last night. How about "age annealed" copper wire for output transformers in one of the more recent nose bleed amplifiers. Geeze! This says to me, salvaged, reused magnet wire folks! :) Made from only the finest hand selected atoms as old as the universe itself! Wow, those must be expensive!
Off the soap box now.
Rob
WildWest
07-05-2002, 09:58 AM
It's sort of like back in the day but a more modern version of the magic elixer, "cures what ails ya". And the uneducated would buy into it and the money would flo. While there is some truth to cables, after all silver/gold conducts better than copper. I would venture to say that's about the extent of it and it really doesn't do anything anyway. Rob explained it well. Heck even as Rob said, aluminum works just fine too, just size it up a bit to cover the load being served. But tweaking is fun and one can't fault anyone for trying anything if they want. Hmmm I should get into making cables. It's so easy to do and make them look very sweet. The mark up on such items is beyond belief. Get me a nice web site with good exposure. WOW! CHAA CHINNGGG goes the bank account!
" hand selected atoms as old as the universe itself" :lmao:
I REALLY enjoyed that one! :lmao:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WildWest
[B]...While there is some truth to cables, after all silver/gold conducts better than copper.
WW,
Sorry to dispell yet another common myth. Gold is not a better conductor of electricity than copper! Truth is it is just barely better than aluminum. The benefit of gold is that it does not corrode (form an oxide layer) so contacts plated with it are always clean for best connection.
From Radio Data For Radio Engineers, Howard Sams /ITT.
Resistivity in (ohm-cm X 10 E-6)
Aluminum 2.62
Gold 2.44
Copper 1.7241
Silver 1.62
Room temperature superconducting Unobtanium 0.00 :smsex:
Glad you liked my new hype sales pitch line. :)
Rob
WildWest
07-05-2002, 01:09 PM
"Sorry to dispell yet another common myth. Gold is not a better conductor of electricity than copper"
Alas, it has been 20 some years since graduation from the apprenticeship program. Seemed in the back of my mind that during some of the "fundamental" training that gold and silver were mentioned to be better conductors. Ahhh but when I whip out one of my old school books here I read... "Copper is a better conductor than gold and silver better than copper". uggghhhh I need to go back to school. All that fundamental stuff is slipping away in the old age of my youth.
That's right, gold just keeps things cleaner. I think by my saying it conducts better I was lumping it into the fact that by keeping things cleaner it tends to conduct better that's all. :D
WW,
It's easy to forget little things like this as we get wiser in all other ways. :) I couldn't remember my name half the time if I didn't have it written down on stu-uff.
It is true though that a large number of radio shaft technical sales representatives believe that gold conducts better than copper.
Rob
"Room temperature superconducting Unobtanium 0.00 "
:eek: Where can I get me some of that!!!
I think you hit it on the head ((% of people who claim to hear improvements with these DIY and other high falutin cable are folks who had bad cables with poor copper content them just got high priced cables using no better copper than good heavy duty speaker wire.
Thatch_Ear
07-06-2002, 05:42 AM
I know that debating cables and interconnects is a real can of worms. I will be making my 1st set of serious interconnects next week when my Vampire OFC RCA plugs show up. A friend of mine makes these and sells them and I have listened to a pair vs a few name brand pairs and there is a difference. His are neautral. Silver seems bright. Silver over copper sounds bad possibly because of 2 different conductors. The stuff sure was expensive. Anyway the interconnects I am making use Cryo treated OFC magnet wire. Anyone that has a good set of RCA plugs ought to go to Rat Shack and get some magnet wire and braid up a pair and compare them to some big bucks ones given the chance. 2 strands for pos and 2 for neg, silver free solder, mark the source end so you always plug them in the same way and be very careful not to kink them. And yes a break in period is needed. No snake oil here guys. Just copper. Just be carefull of the RCA plugs. The cheaper ones are brass with gold plating. The goal is to change the signal as little as possible. If you have a lot of time and $$ invested in your system you know that often the simple little things do more for your sound than most people think. If you like what the cheap magnet wire does then spend a bit more for better.
poorboy
07-06-2002, 08:48 AM
Rob, thanks for you insite. Now i know that a lot of the interconnects and speaker cable business is wacked. How does one justify spending 10 grr on cables is beyond me.
Now concerning the speaker cable, i have a basic understanding of electricity and conductors, but can't explain why things happen when i changed to cat5 cable. Does it have to do with the fact that you've got 24 strands of solid core cable (24ga), each one seperate? Wouldn't it behave differently then the 12ga that is multistrand? I don't know, i'm just asking. But there was a difference when i changed to the cat5.
Concerning interconnects, i do find a difference between them. I had some Electrohome IC's that were the heavier shielded type (the retailed for 30 cdn, more than i would want to pay for IC). I made a pair of IC using a shielded cable with 4 strands of 24ga wire and 1.50 terminations. I found that the diy cable tended to sound more neutral, taking away a "bump" at around the 100-80 hz range. I then tried a set of IC's using 3 strands of 24ga silver plated cooper wire that i quite enjoyed. I've also used braided 24ga pure silver in teflon tubing that sounded nice. I don't know the scientific explaination for the differences but did notice some. Out of the first two they cost me a total of $15, at this price i'll try anything once.
Concerning the main cable, wouldn't it be better to have a thicker cable so that when your amp needs the power it has: ie. bigger cable, more juice runnning throught.
I don't know, just the ramplings of one obsessed audio fan
shibby
WildWest
07-06-2002, 09:03 AM
A break in period?? On conductors?? I am confused, please explain to me what exactly breaks in ok? From my understanding the electron on the valence of the atom in a condutive material jumps freely and extreamly quickly. Uhhhh you blink and it's done. No break in required what so ever. What moving part is there on the cable other than the electrons in the valence of the atoms of the conductive materials?
I REALLY need to get into marketing cables...
"step right up all you audiophiles, I
have the magic cables of sound."
(total investment to build cable 50.00. Sale price
after markup. 500.00 WOOOHOOO!!)
Well anyway, I apologize to those that enjoy experimenting with conductive materials and insulation. Various insulators can affect the properties of conductors. If you say it works, then by God it works for you and that's all that matters! It all comes down to tweakin and having fun. ;)
Thatch_Ear
07-08-2002, 03:42 PM
It is one of those things that drives us all crazy. If you can't measure it ,it can't be true, or is it that we just can't measure it yet. Or is it just wishfull thinking that after being used for a while the wires have everything all alligned and everone has a happy face on. Or is it true? Best way to tell is to make 2 pair and only use one pair for 2 weeks and then test them against each other. Actually I really don't care. These interconnects sound great, are easy to make and won't break the bank. What more can you ask for?
celticguitar
02-28-2007, 08:59 AM
Hi all I know this an old post but I made up for experimental purposes some interconnects out of some left over wire from speaker wire job. It is 6 conductor 26 gauge I used one conductor for center tap and the rest as shield. Well I had monster cable between my TT and amp they were the shortest I could find at 3 feet bought at CC, my DIY are about 18 inches. Unless I am deluding myself my DIY sound much better more focused better sounding in general. I thought I had read some where that shorter and thinner the better for TT hook ups as close as if you had the cartridge plugged directly into amp. All food for thought and dissensention(?):scratch2:
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