Cornwall I vs II-help-

[Batigol]

Hey guys, this is my first thread here although i have been reading these forums for weeks. I have decided to take the plunge into vintage two channle audio and through browsing these forums i have really learned quite abit. Im starting from scratch here and will be soon in the process of acquiring some gear. I have decided upon Mcintosh MX-110 as my tuner/preamp and most likely a solid state amp even though i would much prefer a tube amp my budget at the moment will prevent this. Now to the question i have for you guys.

I have decided upon a set of cornwalls as being the speakers for me. I have managed to listen to a pair of cornwall IIs and was blown away. So my question is if having a choice between I's and IIs are there any diferences? What are the pros and cons if any? I cant afford IIIs and im all about old school vintage anyways so please if you guys can steer me in the right direction on this i would apreciate it.

Thanks guys

[Texas42]

I've owned both the Is and IIs although at different times so was never able to make a valid comparison. That said, I enjoyed both and don't think you could go wrong with either. The Cornwall is a very listenable speaker, especially with the right amplification. In fact, for the money, the Cornwall and Forte' models, in my opinion, are the best Klipsch speakers ever made (note caveat, 'for the money'). That said, trust your own ears. If you 'know' you like the IIs you listened to and don't have a pair of Is to audition, go with the pair you know you will like, although I don't think there is a large difference between the two. Some prefer the earlier, some the latter...

[mhardy6647]

I have never understood the Cornwall geneaology. The original Cornwalls had vertical horns (the right way to mount them). Later Cornwalls, like mine, had horizontal horns (no need for mirror symmetrical pairs for stereo -- cost savings for Klipsch). I don't think those count as 1's and 2's, though. Still later Cornwalls had (at least) tweeters with ceramic magnets, and I do believe different MR horns. Were those the true "2's"?

The Klipsch 2-channel forum is the best place to ask; are they "up" or "down" at this point?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/dampedcornyhornies.jpg

EDIT: I am attaching a nice photo of an (updated) vertical Cornwall, which I must've snagged from the Klipsch forums.

[Batigol]

Thanks for the advice guys. Ive been scowering the web and ebay trying to learn as much as i can before diving in and like mhardy said the genealogy is pretty dam confusing. While personally i do prefer the vertical horn set up of the real early corns those are a little to old for me to feel comortable buying, im a real newb when it comes to vintage stereo gear.

Texas im leaning toward your way of thinking, i have heard the IIs and loved them and probably should go with IIs. The main reason im trying to find the difference between Is and IIs is that i can purchase Is cheaper and if there is no tangible audio diference i would like to save the money and put it toward my amp.

Thanks again fellas

[Brian]

Personally, I would go with whatever is local. The 1s with metal horns are more amenable to modding such as chaulking to tune them than the later phenolic horns.

[BECtoo]

Thanks for the advice guys. Ive been scowering the web and ebay trying to learn as much as i can before diving in and like mhardy said the genealogy is pretty dam confusing. While personally i do prefer the vertical horn set up of the real early corns those are a little to old for me to feel comortable buying, im a real newb when it comes to vintage stereo gear.

Texas im leaning toward your way of thinking, i have heard the IIs and loved them and probably should go with IIs. The main reason im trying to find the difference between Is and IIs is that i can purchase Is cheaper and if there is no tangible audio diference i would like to save the money and put it toward my amp.

Thanks again fellas

It is a real problem to try to figure out the Cornwall saga. The vertical and horizontal horn models were built concurrently up until sometime in the 70s. Some of the Cornwall vertical horn models are designated as Cornwall II and some are not. I have a set of vertical horn Cornwalls with one marked Cornwall II and one marked Cornwall. When you get to the end of the original Cornwalls in the early 80s, all bets are off on what you find inside the cabinets. The driver sets and crossover types are bewildering.

Then we get to 1986 and the "newer" Cornwall II. They have a (in most cases) MDF cabinet instead of the earlier plywood and the backs are not removable. All drivers mounted from the front. The crossovers in these are a genuine mess and look like they came out of Mrs. Beasley's kindergarten arts and crafts class. The crossovers will need a rebuild. In fact they needed the rebuild before leaving the factory. The Cornwall II moved completely away from the expensive driver set found in the early Cornwalls to a driver set that probably cost about 1/4 as much and a cabinet that cost much less to build also. Somehow the speakers manage to sound very good.

Bob Crites

[cubdog]

Bob, when looking for Cornwall's, specifically, what are the most desirable years?

cubdog

[Batigol]

Just when i thought this couldnt get anymore confusing BECtoo comes in an opens up a can of all kinds of worms lol. Cubdog asks and excellent questions what are the most desirabl years for corns?

And what the hell does this mean :)

"...such as chaulking to tune them than the later phenolic horns."
?

what is chaulking and what are phenolic horns?

[Brian]

Klipsch had metal bells (see Mark's photos) and then switched to phenolic, a type of plastic (okay so I ain't no specialist). The metal bell rings and is a source of what many call the horn or honky sound. By experimenting with wrapping them you can change the sound. The later phenolic does not ring anywhere near as much and wrapping the bell does not affect the sound as much. It would seem that going with the latter would be the way but with the ability to affect the sound of the driver/bell you can "tune" the speaker to come closer to what you like. With that and doing some upgrades to the x-over you really take control of what the speaker will sound like. I almost think Paul designed the early speakers specifically with this in mind as they really can be improved with so little work.

[BECtoo]

Klipsch had metal bells (see Mark's photos) and then switched to phenolic, a type of plastic (okay so I ain't no specialist). The metal bell rings and is a source of what many call the horn or honky sound. By experimenting with wrapping them you can change the sound. The later phenolic does not ring anywhere near as much and wrapping the bell does not affect the sound as much. It would seem that going with the latter would be the way but with the ability to affect the sound of the driver/bell you can "tune" the speaker to come closer to what you like. With that and doing some upgrades to the x-over you really take control of what the speaker will sound like. I almost think Paul designed the early speakers specifically with this in mind as they really can be improved with so little work.

Paul Klipsch (at age of about 90) once threw one of his engineers out of his house when the engineer asked the question about whether the metal horns could be improved by using rope caulk to dampen them. He said "Do you really think that in the last 40 years tweaking my speakers, I would not have come up with that one if it worked?"

Along this line, I have had a midrange horn that had some ringing. Just tightened up the mounting screws and fixed it. Rope caulk would probably have fixed it also, but that would have been rather like putting sound deading material around a squeaky hinge so you could not hear it instead of putting a little lubrication on the hinge.

I am really opposed to use of rope caulk on the horns. I used to think that it at least did no harm, but changed my mind about that. I got a pair of Heresys that had been rope caulked about 10 years earlier. The rope caulk had de-composed and the oil from the rope caulk had run down the interior of the cabinet and dripped on the woofer.

I like the Cornwall models made up until about 1980 best. They were built by true craftsmen and cost saving had not been applied at all during that time. I think by the early 80's the goal was to see how much cheaper we can make them and still have them sound pretty good.

OK, now for Cornwall tweaks. All of them need at least a rebuild of the crossovers. That is a pretty simple job. Next, they can all profit from a better tweeter. The K-77 (EV T-35) only goes to about 16 khz on its best day and a lot of them only make it to 12 khz.

Next, a larger midrange horn is really the thing that takes the Cornwall to the next level. See my avatar.

Bob Crites

[Richard C.]

Bob,
Is there a database of T/S specs for the various woofers used in the Cornwalls down thru the years? I would expect them to be quite different from the horn loaded ones. I wonder just how different they are from your CW1526C.

Richard C.

[BECtoo]

Bob,
Is there a database of T/S specs for the various woofers used in the Cornwalls down thru the years? I would expect them to be quite different from the horn loaded ones. I wonder just how different they are from your CW1526C.

Richard C.

From some point in the 70s, the Cornwall, Lascala, Khorn and Belle shared the exact same K-33E woofer. In 1985, the FS of the K-33E changed from 27 hz to 34 hz. In 1986, the Cornwall II used the K-34 woofer. The Lascala, Khorn, Belle (now discontinued) and now the Lascala II all use the 34 hz version of the K-33E. My CW1526 is like the pre 1985 K-33E and is, IMO, the best woofer you can now purchase for the Cornwall.

Bob Crites

[Batigol]

All very intresting to say the least. I did not know that the khorn, lascalla and cornwall shared the same woofer. I was under the mistaken impression that it was the woofer in cornwall that was its major atribute compared to the khorn. Perhaps its the housing design of the corn that really acentuates its base over the the khorn? That little tidbit of information has got me thinking i would really like the khorn with its larger horn but unfortunatley for me those are out my price range at this time.

I really apreciate all this information guys and will now set my sights on finding a pre 1980 cornwall.

BECtoo what would you recomend as a tweeter upgrade for the corn?

As far as the crossover rebuild is concerened you say its a simple job, do you mean a simple job for a speaker technician to perform? I personally would not have a clue if it was to come to me doing it myself.

Thanks again guys.

[BECtoo]

Well, I should have said that if you are able to solder, the rebuild job is easy. Just two capacitors on the type B crossover that need to be replaced.

What tweeter? I am just too modest to answer that, but:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110035291726

Bob Crites

[jcmjrt]

That little tidbit of information has got me thinking i would really like the khorn with its larger horn but unfortunatley for me those are out my price range at this time.

I really apreciate all this information guys and will now set my sights on finding a pre 1980 cornwall.



Another thing to keep in mind is that the Cornwall (I, II or III) is relatively easy to place in the room. They can be placed against a wall or in a corner. The KHorns need a corner (false or otherwise) to sound right. Most speakers need space - usually at least a foot to a foot and half - from the wall to sound right. The Cornwall is big and that's a little difficult to work with but after that it's easy to settle in to a room.
I wouldn't worry all that much about what year you get. Find a good pair that's near you at a reasonable price.

[silversport]

Bob is far too modest but he sells his own tweeter...woofer (had I known I would have bought mine from him instead of Klipsch) and upgrades and updates to crossovers...VERY reasonably priced and a great guy to work with.
Bill

[Batigol]

ahhh so it looks like that you really do know what you are talking about lol.

I'll certainly keep you in mind down the road, i would think that a solid 3khz improvement could be fairly substantial. Right now im just looking forward to getting my hands on a set of cornwalls and living with them as is for a while. Cant wait.. But the information on what i can do to improve is great to know for the future. I imagine ill have these babbys for a long time :)

[pmsummer]

Look locally, if at all possible. Cornwalls are a PITA to ship due to their size and weight.

Bob is a great resource.

BTW: getting some glass tops for Cornwalls improves the WAF dramatically.

[Batigol]

i hear ya on that, there monsters. Now that i know exactly what i want i just have to be lucky enough to find them and within driving distance.

[mhardy6647]

The rope caulk had de-composed and the oil from the rope caulk had run down the interior of the cabinet and dripped on the woofer.
Certainly plausible. Perhaps I'll Saran wrap mine.

[pmsummer]

Certainly plausible. Perhaps I'll Saran wrap mine.

Always use Mortite (tm). :thmbsp:

[mhardy6647]

I did. I think.

[pmsummer]

I did. I think.

I've never seen Mortite decompose like some oil-based caulk.

[Mike Stehr]

http://www.tvacres.com/images/mrs_beasley.jpg

Mrs. Beasley is currently a hooker on Sunset and Gower. For fifty dollars she's the best piece of plastic you ever had."

[Richard C.]

The CW1526C specs look great for some of the speakers I plan to build. These appear to be similar to the Altec 416's. I won't horn load them so the lower "BL" doesn't bother me. I would rather give up the ~3dB of sensitivity to get the extended bass response of a direct radiator. I really like the cloth surrounds better than the foam on most woofers with a low FS, too.

Do you have the specs and maybe a freq / polar plot on the new CT125 tweeters? Are all these drivers being "custom built" for you? Were you able to get the new Pyle horn and driver to give decent output at full power down to 400 Hz?

Richard C.

[BECtoo]

Richard,

You can look at this thread on the Klipsch forum to see lots of testing done on the CT125 by Al Klappenberger.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/705271/ShowThread.aspx

And, yes, the Pyle horn performs admirably down to 400 hz using a K-55 or Atlas PD-5VH driver.

Bob Crites

[Richard C.]

Thanks Bob, that's just what I wanted.

Richard C.