Well I am down to Ortofon.

I do not have a stage for a low output MC, just a 2325.

I'm leaning toward the X5-MC High output, although I see they have "Salsa" model which is low output.

I guess the real question is, if I spend the cash for an MC, should I just "do it right" and get a low output, then whatever I have to buy to make the low output work? :smoke:

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Come to think of it, why would I spend twice the price for an Ortofon X5-MC when I can buy a Denon DL-110????
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You haven't said but I'm hoping that the arm you are using is right for MC cartridges which generally are low compliance and need a heavy arm. That is particularly true of most of the Denon range - check the compliance figures for the DL-110. I've used the DL-103 and 103R and with the right arm, you are talking a very capable cartridge. Not super in any area but overall good with no major weak spots. I've heard that the DL110 is a good performer as well.

You haven't said but I'm hoping that the arm you are using is right for MC cartridges which generally are low compliance and need a heavy arm. That is particularly true of most of the Denon range - check the compliance figures for the DL-110. I've used the DL-103 and 103R and with the right arm, you are talking a very capable cartridge. Not super in any area but overall good with no major weak spots. I've heard that the DL110 is a good performer as well.
Arm is Technics SL-1200 MK5--is that heavy?

Howdy J,
Generally, most hi-output MC Cartridges like my hi-output Benz Glider (at 1.8mv) usually fall under a subcategory called "Moving Iron" Cartridges. Others that most likely do, would probably be the Sumiko Blackbird.

It is said (and this has been my personal finding also) that MC Cartridges with an output greater than 1.5mv usually work just fine with a wide open loading of 47k. Those that fall under the above mentioned output usually don't, and the general rule of thumb for a good starting point for loading is 25x the Cartridge's Internal Impedance.

The issues that will be important, will be finding either a step up stage, or a dedicated stand alone Phono Stage compatible with whatever Cartridge you buy. This sometimes isn't that easy, so in order to know you'll have a compatible match, one usually needs to know what Cartridge they will settle on, and then find the best matching Phono Stage (Within thier budget) to go with.

Many of the more expensive Phono Stages (Like my $3,000 Sutherland PhD) Usually have a good selection of gain, and loading settings, but even still, one might run into problems. The Sutherland uses Boards for load, and gain that plug into the dual mono Motherboards within the Unit.

Others like the very nice, but less expensive $1,000 PS Audio GCPH use switches on the back for gain/loading, plus a volume/gain control on front, so one can achieve perfect gain, and could also if they wish run directly into a main amplifier, thus bypassing the need for a pre-amplifier section.

You will find, that it will be "very" easy to exceed the cost of your Marantz Reciever with just the Cartridge, let alone an outboard Phono Stage to go with.

I cannot recall what Cartridge you are currently using? Pretty much with all Cartridges bought new today, you'll get what you pay for, meaning that a $400 Cartridge will best-outperform a $300 one, etc.

Of course, the laws of diminishing returns apply, when you start comparing a $3,000 Cartridge to a $3500 one. Yes, they get better, and better, but the differences are more subtle.

You might be best served dollarwise by going to a top of the line MM Cartridge instead?, thus bypassing the need for extenal phono stages?

Of course, you may find less inexpensive stages that will work will a low output MC, but in general, they won;t offer as much flexibility-adjustability. Mark

HI,
I agree with most of what Mark said. It boils down to your goals. If you are heading towards the best vinyl sound you can get, go with the low output MC, buy the head amp, then get ready to bust for a record washing machine. If you are serious about vinyl, you will have to pay the piper.

OTH, if you are not serious or don't know, buy a modest MM and see if serious vinyl is in your future.

I'm bothered about no one mentioning sonic quality and just price. Except speakers, cartridges offer the most oportunity to taylor the sound field to your likes. You should choose carefully. And always remember, you get what you pay for. For cartridges this ranges from dirt cheap to Fararri expensive.

Arm is Technics SL-1200 MK5--is that heavy?

I did a search on Kabusa (technics dealer) and it says that the arm's effective mass is 12gms so I'd say that it's heavy enough. Go for the DL-110 or maybe 160. You''ll get good sound. If you decide later that vinyl is your thing and you are lustin' for the better sound, you can decide to upgrade then...or not...the technics and denon are decent gear. Thakker on e-bay has good prices and a good rep.

Thanks for the input!

markd51, 3,000 for a phono stage is a little high for me, I understand this could well exceed the cost of the Marantz, but that is of no consequence if the sonic result is worth it. Currently have a shure m97x. The needed 2325 pumps DIY (not by me) 92db efficient 3 way (12", 8", 1") bi-wired floor towers, (4' x 19"D x 14"W) using rear bass ports for nice strong corner loading. They punch hard and loud if need be. They look like some AR's I've seen.

karma16, I have a nitty gritty machine, and swear by it, use plastic sleeves, plus I carbon fiber brush each before play, and regularly clean stylus with last stylus cleaner, that's it. So I am serious about vinyl, (but dont say to dump that DD technics, cuz no one has proven it to be a weak link TT under $1000, only the cartridge) but "taylor the sound field to your likes" is what I would like do--but I wouldn't know that really unless I test many cartridges, which I really cant afford to do.

jcmjrt, the DL-110 would probably sound better than the shure m97x, although I have also heard the deal where a high output MC is not really as high output as a MM, so you end up turning up the volume more which in turn could introduce more noise. High output MC's seem like sort of a bandage between a really nice MM and a entry level low output MC, and l would shell out some cash for a low output MC and the stage if the ROI is there.


All in all, I would not mind spending 3 or 4 hundred bucks on a low output MC, and if I could stay under 3 or 4 hundred for whatever black box to make it work with my marantz 2325, AND, it would sound better than a high output MC or my current shure, THEN I would do it.

So what is it, Ortofon low output -- and what "black box" can I get in my price range? Or if I cannot pull it off in my price range, just stick with MM and puchase a high end MM? Cause it sound like a high output MC is sort of not worth it.:smoke:

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You are quite correct that a HOMC doesn't typically put out the voltage that a MM cartridge does. I haven't found that to be a problem, but if you are operating on the edge with your current set-up, I guess that it could be.

Unless your cartridge is just worn and needs to be replaced, your integrated phono amp is probably more limiting to the quality of the phono sound you are experiencing than your Shure M97X which is a decent MM. An inexpensive phono amp which is waaaay better than most phono amps in a receiver is the Hagerman Bugle or Bugle Pro. You can buy it built or diy. It you are diy then it has the capability of being configured (soldering required of a few resistors so you don't change it record to record but system cartridge by system cartridge) for the gain that you desire from 40 - 60 db or anything in between. You could keep your current phono cartridge and enjoy superior sound at 40db gain or buy a HOMC and configure it for 50 db or buy a LOMC and configure the Bugle(PRO) for 60 db and then there are no more gain issues whatever you buy. The Bugle alone without a new cartridge will have you happily listening to all your records again.

For LOMC - you should consider the Denon DL-103R. You can get it from Japan for about $250 and it's a great audio bargain. I'm running that with my system now and am very happy. The DL-103 is also a good cartridge and great bargain at $150 - does nothing super but well-rounded. I don't think that it's quite as good as the R version but it's very good and $100 will buy a few good albums. Denon can sell so cheaply because these cartridges have been around for over 20 years and the research and tooling were paid for long ago. I'm considering trying a Dynavector 20X. They have a warmer sound and I'm thinking that I might enjoy that. That runs at about $600 though and my 103R is just so good that I'm not in a hurry to move on.

Hope this helped.

For LOMC - you should consider the Denon DL-103R.
Hope this helped.

Although I have heard great things about the 103R, and know it's a classic - I have always stayed away from it because it has a conical stylus. I guess I shouldn't let that bother me, but it seems to me that there are a lot of other stylii that best the conical design.

Surface noise is a big turnoff for me too, how is the 103R in that regard?

Any thoughts guys?

jcmjrt, thanks. So what I'm hearing is even though a Marantz 2325 is rated one of the killer vintage receivers, the phono stage is sub standard?

Also, like I said I'm willing spend a little cash on a Phono stage, and from what you're saying, it makes sense that a stage alone could boost my sound quality.

So, since I want to keep this scalable in case I decide to buy a low output MC later, it'd be nice if the phono stage could handle both MM/MC.

What do you think about the Pro-Ject Phono Box MM/MC Phono Preamplifier @ needledoctor for 120.00? Or should I jump for a 4-500 dollar unit? Most say the ROI on a cartridge is worth it, but what about a phono stage?

Clearaudio Micro Basic Phonostage MC/MM?

Where'd you get your Hagerman?

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I haven't heard the Project Phono MM/MC phono amp but at $120 and it's switchable, I'd have to guess there were a LOT of compromises made. It could better your current phono stage. I think that in your price range flip of the switch adjustability with very sound performance just doesn't exist. The Hagerman Bugle (PRO) is as easily changed for a solid, inexpensive phono amp as I know of but it requires soldering so if you can't do that or know someone who can, I think that you really need to decide what style cartridge you want and configure for that.

The phono stage is as important to the quality of sound as the cartridge.

Hagerman is at www.hagtech.com and you can order it as completed or diy. His support board is at audiocircle.com under circles, and then Hagerman Technology.

I built a Bugle Pro as a diy. The Bugle Pro incorporates the Bugle Amp and Bugle Power Supply into one box and adds some adjustability for records that were cut pre riaa standard. The Bugle Amp run off batteries is very nice though as there is no noise from a power supply.

As a former Sumiko phono box owner I can tell that it does a decent enough job and is in fact an upgrade over most 70's type receiver phono sections. Decent but not great. I was looking at different options in this same area recently and what I finally went with was an Amber II preamp. I chose the Amber because it has IMO an excellent phono section, is switchable between MM & MC and I can still run it through my Bottlehead Foreplay tubed preamp through the tape out. Now this may not be the conventional rule of thought, but when I can get a preamp that meets my specs shipped for $125.00, screw conventional.....
I am not using a MC cart right now and I don't necessarily plan on using one right away, I still can if I change my mind. I'm real happy with my vinyl playback as of right now and like you have a Nitty Gritty, fiber brush, stylus cleaner etc., but most of my LP's are second(third, fourth LOL) hand and I am also running Altec Horns and I'm afraid to have anything too revealing. You may want to hop on over to Audiogon and see what kind of phono preamp offerings are available. Good luck with your quest and please keep us apprised of you progress.
Bill

Am certainly enjoying what I consider the terrific sound from my Jolida JD-9A hybrid/tube phono stage. Bought from Underwood HiFi for $380 last week. It has settings (four sets of dip swiches) for all ranges of MM/MC cartridges. http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd9a.shtml

Here is a review that I am in agreement with (haven't tried the tweaks as of yet - give me a few months).
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/jolida.htm

My guess is that you will find that the Denon 103 is not that much of a step up from the M97xE. If you want a Denon and want a nice step up, get the 103R. Or, get the Ortofon XC-M5 (how about the new range of Ortofon Rondo MC's? You'll need that Jolida JD-9A or other phono preamp, if you do).

Now a bit about HO MCs. You can't fight physics. The only way you can get more output is to put more windings in there. More windings mean more weight (mass, actually). Therefore, you lose some of nuances of the lighter weight internals of the LO MCs. The Kontrapunkt-b I use is sort of a middle ground with 450uv output. My next cartridge will be something like a Lyra Helikon or Ortofon Jubilee. I'm saving all my change for one. Figure I'm about 2-years away (got ~500 hours on the K-b, so timing should work out well).

Well I am down to Ortofon.

I do not have a stage for a low output MC, just a 2325.

I'm leaning toward the X5-MC High output, although I see they have "Salsa" model which is low output.

I guess the real question is, if I spend the cash for an MC, should I just "do it right" and get a low output, then whatever I have to buy to make the low output work? :smoke:

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Check the specs of your MC. The Phono input on the Marantz you have is load impedance 47 ohms. I had a High Output MC load impedance 100 ohms. Wouldn't match up!!! Speakers started thump thumping like they were gonna blow as soon as I hooked it up!!!

EDIT- I just Googled the specs for the Ortofon X5-MC, "Recommended load impedance
47 kOhm"
So it's a match for your Marantz

Well I am down to Ortofon.

I do not have a stage for a low output MC, just a 2325.

I'm leaning toward the X5-MC High output, although I see they have "Salsa" model which is low output.

I guess the real question is, if I spend the cash for an MC, should I just "do it right" and get a low output, then whatever I have to buy to make the low output work? :smoke:

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In my experience low output MC cartridges sound better than the medium and high output ones. It may have something to do with the higher moving mass in the high output ones.:smoke:

jcmjrt, you're probably right about the Project Phono MM/MC phono. The Hagerman Pro sounds nice and I would just buy the assembled unit. Although I've heard about the Jolida JD-9A that Yamaha B-2 is talking about for a little less money..also the Clearaudio Micro Basic MM/ MC is on ebay for 275...I'm pretty much boiling it down to these 3 I think...

cableguy, excellent point. I know there are some nice preamps out there with decent phono stages, I had a parasound preamp once but that phono stage was really no better than the one in my marantz. I have this feeling that this would be the cheapest bang for the buck since I think the stand alone phono stages are being marked up anyhow versus preamps w/phono inputs.

Yamaha B-2, yes heard about the Jolida JD-9A. Makes me immediately think about the Bellari VP129 tube phono preamp. Man there's some choices!

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Thumping sounds like some other problem other than load impedance. I've never heard of a cartridge, regardless of how unmatching for loading doing this.

The issue with this Ortofon Cart,. and whether it will be compatible with the 2325 Marantz, is, What is it's output? If it's 2.5mv or less, fougettaboutit!

You really need a Cart with output of 4mv or better to do well with the Marantz, otherwise, you'll be cranking the volume knob to 3 oclock.

I sold a very worthy Phono Stage on A-gon some months back, my previous mint McCormack Micro Phono Drive for $300. This had two gain settings of 40db, and 50db, and the 40db gain would've been ideal for pretty much all MM Cartridges. Default loading was 47K, and could be adjusted via clip-in Vishay 5 watt resistors on the board to whatever value your heart desires. This usint was $750 new, and once in a blue moon, they pop up. Steve McCormack himself can also mid, and upgrade these units till the skies the limit, with outboard Power Source, better caps, etc. which will no doubt bring this unit into true contending with the megabuck units.

In stock form, it was a very darn good unit, clear, pure, precise, lacking grain, and spit, and I would say went 80% of the way of my new Sutherland PhD Pre-amp. The Sutherland exhibits better slam, a slightly quieter noise floor, better seperation of instruments-voices, and bit better detail, and purity. It should at $3K.
Mark

My guess is that you will find that the Denon 103 is not that much of a step up from the M97xE. If you want a Denon and want a nice step up, get the 103R.

There's a huge sound difference between the 103 and the M97xE - I own both. The 103 is clearly a step up in refinement and every other sound area I can think of compared to the Shure.

FWIW I don't think there's a huge difference in sound between a plain jane 103 and a 103R. I've heard both, and if I didn't know beforehand which was which I'd be hard pressed to pick each out of a lineup.

B-2: glad you got the Jolida. That's a bargain price for a tubed, fully adjustable MM/MC phono stage. I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on one....maybe this winter. Let us know how it sounds as you continue to listen:yes:

Jeff

jcmjrt, you're probably right about the Project Phono MM/MC phono. The Hagerman Pro sounds nice and I would just buy the assembled unit. Although I've heard about the Jolida JD-9A that Yamaha B-2 is talking about for a little less money..also the Clearaudio Micro Basic MM/ MC is on ebay for 275...I'm pretty much boiling it down to these 3 I think...
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Any of those would probably clearly better the phono amp that you are using. It's always fun to listen to the tunes again when you've made a major improvement in the system. Enjoy it!

There's a huge sound difference between the 103 and the M97xE - I own both. The 103 is clearly a step up in refinement and every other sound area I can think of compared to the Shure. JeffOops....my little fingers just can't keep up with my brain (or is it the other way around?). I meant the 110 and not the 103. Duh.

B-2: glad you got the Jolida. That's a bargain price for a tubed, fully adjustable MM/MC phono stage. I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on one....maybe this winter. Let us know how it sounds as you continue to listen:yes: Have all ready started doing so. http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87707&highlight=Jolida Have started looking into tube rolling, tube dampeners and feet.

I have decided on a Bellari VP129 tube phono preamp, 210.00 bucks delivered, 12AX7, rumble filter :yes:, MM only, smaller size is better for me, and lots of good reviews. We will see...

Y'know, I'm betting a lot of the hype around Low output MC's being the way to go comes from the fact that most who go that route needs to purchase an external phono stage anyhow, (which in of itself could be the biggest improvement), thereby making the LO MC appear superior.

Isn't it funny how the thread started out as me thinking about purchasing a HO MC or a LO MC, and ends up with a phono stage for a MM.

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Not funny at all. You and we have all learned something......some more than others. Not a bad choice. When I was using a Yamaha CR-820 receiver as my center-piece, lo-those-many-years-ago, I bought a Threshold FET 10/pc to run a Shure V15MRxV through. It was an astounding up-grade. Made a huge difference with the MM cartridge. The down-side is that it started me on the madness of the gear I listen to now. But......tis a gentle madness.

Now you start the craziness of tube-rolling, tube-dampeners, feet, different cartridges, etc. Enjoy!!

I have decided on a Bellari VP129 tube phono preamp, 210.00 bucks delivered, 12AX7, rumble filter :yes:, MM only, smaller size is better for me, and lots of good reviews. We will see...

Y'know, I'm betting a lot of the hype around Low output MC's being the way to go comes from the fact that most who go that route needs to purchase an external phono stage anyhow, (which in of itself could be the biggest improvement), thereby making the LO MC appear superior.
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Cool. And now you'll get a chance to join the tube types in some tube rolling. There's always more madness for we audio lovers :D

i have a std 305m/adc alt/i/ortofon om20 and i was toying with trying one of the denon m/c range...... but the adc is only 7gm.would any of them work with this arm? i also have a denon au 310 step up.

I'll second the recommendation of the DL-110/DL-160 cartridges. I have a DL-160 mounted on a headshell here, and have used it on a Technics SL-1200Mk5 and found it to work quite well with the arm as far as tracking slight warps and the like. It seems to be a real good match for that table, and at the price for the cartridge, sounds great. The Denon will have noticeably more high end than the Shures, at least that's what I found. Its voltage output is about the same as the V15VxMR I used to have. I just ordered the HFN test record, when it gets here I'll be able to see what the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge combo is and if it falls in the desired range.

i have a std 305m/adc alt/i/ortofon om20 and i was toying with trying one of the denon m/c range...... but the adc is only 7gm.would any of them work with this arm? i also have a denon au 310 step up.

That sounds like a really low mass arm, and ideally would like to see a high compliance cartridge like a Stanton 881S, one of the Shure V15 cartridges, etc. A lower compliance cart like most of the MC stuff likely will push the resonant frequency up close to the audible range which can result in sound coloration on music with lots of bass content, simply because resonance will the occur with desired signals. www.cartridgedb.com has a resonance evaluator which can help find the resonant frequency based on cartridge compliance and tonearm effective mass.

That arm was probably from the 70's or 80's when high compliance cartridges were all the rage. Nowadays, low output MC is the rage instead, and these lower compliance units require heavier arms. High compliance was touted as the way to lower record wear and increasing tracking ability.

I've used a Denon DL103 since the early '90s in my Rega Planar 2. I had been around lots of audio before but had never heard of the Denons until my high end audio salesmen neighbor recommended the DL103 and sold me one.

Initially, I used the same Denon AU310 step up transformer mentioned above because my former preamp only had mm level inputs ( Luxman 5C50 ). While I thought it sounded good, I always was concerned that additional connections to the delicate phono signal path might degrade sound quality (perhaps this was just a case of "audio nervosa" though).

Present preamp has switchable mm/mc inputs (B&K Pro10mc) and other internal phono sections have this capability including the Sumo Athena preamp.

If you are considering a Denon DL103, check out the review on TNT Audio:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/denon-dl103_e.html

thanks for the link on cart/arm values,excellent info.it seems like i will be looking out for a heavier arm if i want to play denons.any recomendations?

I thought this was an interesting way to look at it:

"Bass takes space. Vinyl is a mechanical medium. The groove contains the wavelength and velocity information for all the musical frequencies contained in it. The signal's wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency. Using the equation:- wavelength (?) = velocity (V) / frequency (f)

We find a bass frequency of 50Hz has a wavelength ( groove wiggle) of 0.1cm (1mm) at the peak recorded velocity of a vinyl LP (5cm/sec). With 50:50 spacing, you'd only get 40 revolutions, and at 33? RPM that's just 1 minute and 12 seconds!

At 1kHz (middle of the band) the wiggle is 0.05mm - enough for 24 minutes, but at 10kHz, the wiggle is so small it would be swamped by the noise of the vinyl's polymorphic structure.

The cure is to turn the bass down and the treble up while cutting the record master. So when you play a record you need a clever bit of electronics to change it back. That's the job of the Phono Stage.

The more accurate in frequency and phase performance the phono stage is - the better the sound. Not forgetting that the phono stage must not add to the background noise already on the record.

The best phono stages are: Fast (wide bandwidth); Quiet (low noise) and distortion should be inaudible. And that is not an easy task!"

:scratch2:

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/category17_1.htm

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I did a search on Kabusa (technics dealer) and it says that the arm's effective mass is 12gms so I'd say that it's heavy enough. Go for the DL-110 or maybe 160. You''ll get good sound. If you decide later that vinyl is your thing and you are lustin' for the better sound, you can decide to upgrade then...or not...the technics and denon are decent gear. Thakker on e-bay has good prices and a good rep.
I agree! I'm using a Denon DL-160 with good results in my Thorens TD 125 MK II with the Thorens arm 16g effective mass. I bought it from Thakker, and was pleased with the purchase in all aspects. Plenty of output for my C28's MM phono input. Hard to beat for the $$$ IMHO
Jim

If you are considering going with the Denon DL 103, and can do a little DIY, I suggest you check into a cinemag SUT. You can do a search on it over at the Vinyl asylum. Costs about $100 and you can plug it into the phono input of your 2325. $160 for the Denon on the bay and $100 for the cinemag SUT. Not too shabby for an outlay of only $260. I had a Shure M97 xE and I prefer the Denon. Just what you needed, another option to consider.:scratch2:

Kim