:scratch2: As the newest Altec guy Iv'e been lurking look:scratch2: ing at prices. They seem to be all over the place I got my first pair of 14's for 400.00 but I see a pair on ebay with a buy it now of 1500.00 Granted they had grills and mine don't but my woofers were also redone by GPA, If these sell mine will be up for sale in a heart beat. Also I see A-7's for 4 to 6 hundred?? what gives? I have 4 altec 14's but I sure would like to turn them into a pair of 19's.

Three main reasons, LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION!

You have been blessed with the karma twice now! (you bought your first pair for the value of just the woofers!) In your situation, they're an investment as well as superb speakers.

Consider that in many buyer's situations shipping/moving will easily exceed the purchase prices you have paid.

If you're handy at building boxes, or have access to a shop there are AK members that will guide/advise you every step of the way to build your own 19's successfully. A good sale of a pair of 14's would cover a good portion of the cost of a 19 building project.

Sadly in a sense (for those of us wanting to own), many people are rediscovering that the model 19 is arguably one of, if not the finest sounding loudspeaker ever produced for consumption by the general public...................... there i said it!

For those of us that try to keep our hobby on a modest budget, i think you can make a close contender for the 19's out of valencias by adding some internal bracing, and building new crossovers that are basically clones of the model 19 network.

Remember that ebay is a very subjective market and prices on things like large vintage speakers can and do fluctuate dramatically.

IMO, 1500 is close to double what top dollar should be on 14's, but if they're "minty" and in a location where there's multiple interested parties within local pickup distance, then the bidding can sometimes get crazy.

Well said Bowtie!

14s are a nice speaker but I think much nicer in a price range under $600 and close enough to pick up.

I do however tend to get stuck in a groove where prices are concerned.

A pair of 19s for under $1000 is a good deal when you consider the cost of raw and unknown parts is well over this.

This entire concept of parts being worth way more then whole and working speakers is quite depressing when all things are considered. There won't be any more 14s or 19s and I really wonder how many have been parted out and the cabinets up in smoke because no one is willing to pay shipping costs.
We can build great cabinets and fill them with all the correct parts but we can't call them Altec 14s, 15s, or 19s.

Kind of like Lakefront property, they aint making it any more and it just goes up in value so if you snooze you loose.

Gary

Yes I know what you mean Speakers are a very hard thing to ship, But if someone was going to pay me that kind of money I would carry them to him LOL I love my 14's I have them stacked but I'm looking at building a unit for my system and put them all on the floor . I am going to sell or put in the attic my Ohm's and Pioneers No need for them now that I have Altecs!!

Perfectly understandable that at those prices you consider selling them.
Before I made my big Altec I had 4 Yamaha NS 1000Ms. Great speakers!
Bought one set for $400 and the other a bit beat for $300 and I refinished them.
Once the Altecs were built I figured I would sell a pair of the NS 1000s.
They got bid to $1100 for the pair and the buyer wanted the other pair for the same price. I shed a tear as they went down the road that was quickly gone as I headed for the bank!

All of these vintage speakers that were great will always be worth good money if kept nice. Getting over the shipping hurdles and costs is the major
problem and I doubt we can do anything about that here.
I still say the $1500 price tag on those is over twice what I would even think about paying but YMYV.

Gary

All over the map. I've a pair of Flamencos; Orion says "wholesale average condition $160.00, Mint-$240.00, retail-$400.00", which is insane. :) Epay says anywhere from $1200 - $3200 (!??!). I guess the old saying is true: something is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. :D

It does seem like Altec prices are very nebulous. I saw the pair of A7's that were sold in the classifieds on AK and if I had been quicker they would be mine. I've seen other A7's in poorer condition sell for 3-4 times as much. There are a pair of Barcelonas for sale that are local to me. I hope to find the time to give them a listen.

If it is Altec w/811/511 horns and $500 or less I usually just buy first and ask questions later. Otherwise when you get your research done and find out how good of a deal it is someone like me has already gotten the deal.

Ok, I am confused...

What is the difference between Altec 19's, A7's and Valencia 846B? I saw a pair of Valencia 846B in a Walnut cabinet that states they are the same as an A7 VOTT??

I'd love to find a good set of Altecs to try out.. Anybody bringing some to AKFest 2007?

No big difference, but the cabinet designs.

They say they are the same, because Altec designed several home boxes and used exactly the same components as found in the VOTT system.

This pleased both the wife and husband.

As far as price goes - location and how much you got? I would say if you can get 19s, barcelonas, or valencias for under $1500.00, that's always a good day.

I feel that the far east collectors are drying the market and alot of sellers are parting out the cabinets and components.

That is the main reason prices are going up. Finding a pair of complete speakers with the boxes is becoming rare.

I would not doubt that in the next 10 years, prices will double.

Does not matter to me, though - I am never selling my pair of Altec 846Us.

Good luck on finding a pair - it will happen...just be patient.

-Storm.

Did Altec vary the driver models between the different cabinets? I mean, do Valencia's, Barcelona's, VOTT, all have the same drivers? I know there are different drivers as to the year of manufacture. Which poses another question, what are the most coveted combinations, and how is that reflected as to price?

Did Altec vary the driver models between the different cabinets? I mean, do Valencia's, Barcelona's, VOTT, all have the same drivers? I know there are different drivers as to the year of manufacture. Which poses another question, what are the most coveted combinations, and how is that reflected as to price?


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/catalogs/1975-home.htm

The only true correlation between price and rarity, is the very early examples.

Noted combinations include the most common: 811B horn, 806-8A Driver, and a 15" 416-8B woofer.

Take a look at the link above. That catalog - from 1975 - shows clearly that the components they placed in the professional cabinets were identical to what is in the home versions.

Notably, the 846 series and components are equivelant. I dont know about barcelona, but I do know that they used a different woofer than the 416-8B.

I think most of the times, the grey industrial A7s get less due to the wife acceptance factor, or better known as WAF.

That is why Altec tried to get into the home market with WAF friendly cabinets - Flamenco, Valencia, etc.

Make no exception - these home versions are A7s, Voice of the Theatres.

If you can find any large loudspeaker system made by Altec prior to 1978, purchase it. It will be the cream of your audio nirvana.

Good luck.

-Storm.

The differences between the A7 VOTT and the 19 are vast in my opinion.
Completely different speakers all together.
A7 is a Horn Loaded design for the woofer where the 19 is direct radiating.
A7 XOs are crossed at 800 hz where the 19 is crossed at 1200Hz and it's XO has filtering to tame it a bit for home environments.
The 19 was usually sold with the 802-8G HF driver while the A7 contained various others such as the 808-8A and had Symbiotic diaphragms and loading caps for higher power.

Many of the Altecs went through various component switches during their production runs and still many others could be purchased with your choice of drivers to compliment your specific needs. All are not created equal and it is entirely possible to have two sets of either model with completely different drivers, XOs or other components.
This notion that the 19, 846/Valencia, Flamenco and others use the same components as the A7 Vott is completely wrong but most are to a degree quite similar.
Woofers could be any of 5 or 6 variations, XOs also came in numerous variations as did the horns and drivers. There simply is no set load pack for any of these models given the production runs of most and tech advancments during those times.

The most coveted drivers is a completely personal assesment! I like 19s with 416-8B woofers and 802-8G HF drivers. Some had 416-8As and still newer versions had the ferrite motors instead of the Alnicos. Production years as well as many other factors determines the load packs.

Gary

Gary -

I beg to differ.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/catalogs/1975-home.htm

Scroll down to the second to last row - image on the right. Click the image and it will give you side by side comparisons between the VOTT home and VOTT professional.

-Storm.

The differences between the A7 VOTT and the 19 are vast in my opinion.
Completely different speakers all together.
A7 is a Horn Loaded design for the woofer where the 19 is direct radiating.
A7 XOs are crossed at 800 hz where the 19 is crossed at 1200Hz and it's XO has filtering to tame it a bit for home environments.
The 19 was usually sold with the 802-8G HF driver while the A7 contained various others such as the 808-8A and had Symbiotic diaphragms and loading caps for higher power.

Many of the Altecs went through various component switches during their production runs and still many others could be purchased with your choice of drivers to compliment your specific needs. All are not created equal and it is entirely possible to have two sets of either model with completely different drivers, XOs or other components.
This notion that the 19, 846/Valencia, Flamenco and others use the same components as the A7 Vott is completely wrong but most are to a degree quite similar.
Woofers could be any of 5 or 6 variations, XOs also came in numerous variations as did the horns and drivers. There simply is no set load pack for any of these models given the production runs of most and tech advancments during those times.

Gary

Differ you may Storm but the reality is you can and will find many Valencias/846 models with different components as well as A7s and 19s.

Your link is very nice and showing one moment in time and is not indicative over a very long production span.

Member DGWOJO I believe owns as many as six pairs of the A7s and almost every pair has something different inside of them. 846s are the same as are the 19s. It is virtually impossible to determine what is inside any of these models based solely on model numbers alone.

Gary

Okay, point well taken.

However, most of the time the difference in components are the result of the owners changing them out.

I am only going by the catalog, but I would beg to argue that Altec did not switch components from the ones in the catalog to the corresponding models.

My only point is that the home versions - flamenco and valencias, alike - are indeed Voice of the Theatre speakers. It is just that they are in home version cabinets. Nothing is the difference between an A7-8 and the Valencia series besides the boxes and configuration. The same components are utilized, therefore making them VOTTs.

-Storm.

Differ you may Storm but the reality is you can and will find many Valencias/846 models with different components as well as A7s and 19s.

Your link is very nice and showing one moment in time and is not indicative over a very long production span.

Member DGWOJO I believe owns as many as six pairs of the A7s and almost every pair has something different inside of them. 846s are the same as are the 19s. It is virtually impossible to determine what is inside any of these models based solely on model numbers alone.

Gary

Again Storm I would have to disagree.
Based on your statments if the chevy 350 V-8 in your Nova blows up you should be able to go to the junk yard, buy a 350 and drop it in.
You might need to have alot more info to be correct in this. Likewise with Altec speakers.

Gary

That is not what I said. That is taking two different components from two different companies.

I am not saying take a JBL part and put it into an Altec.

In the case of several VOTTs having different compoents, that was due to the owners replacing bad drivers, woofers, etc with whatever they could get their hands on.

Altec had a set guidline of what a VOTT was --- read the catalogs.

-Storm.Again Storm I would have to disagree.
Based on your statments if the chevy 350 V-8 in your Nova blows up you should be able to go to the junk yard, buy a 350 and drop it in.
You might need to have alot more info to be correct in this. Likewise with Altec speakers.

Gary

FWIW, the A7 has been shipped from the altec factory with nearly every possible combination of internal components imagineable, they've sold versions loaded with 803's, 416's, 421's, and 515's, for the purpose of this discussion we'll only discuss the small format 1 inch compression drivers, and the 2 sectoral horns 511 and 811. They used them ALL! in different A7 renderings.

Ocupatto, i would refer you to the 1978 altec catalog, specifically to the "A7X" system/components, 828 cabinet (A7) with 416-8B woofer, 811B horn, 802-8G driver, and the 1200hz N1201-8A crossover network.

Spend some time here at the library, particularly in the catalogs. Remember the posted/claimed specs are not always gospel, but you can me sure that if an item apears in a catalog, it was indeed produced and sold.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/altec.htm

Sure, Many owners switched things but so too did the company.
You can buy completely stock factory built 19s with 416-8A, 416-8Bs, 416-8Z
and they may even have come with the 803 or 3156 woofers early on.

Same with A7s, you could order them with any load pack you needed so to say all A7s have the 416-8B woofer is completely wrong.

VOTT is Voice of the theater and was widely used to describe Altecs line of large speakers. It in no way implies any set pack of component drivers.

Your own version of the 846U also came in 846A & B versions as well as the flamenco and I am willing to bet if two guys here have 846Us there is every possibility there will be some difference from the factory unless they were built on the same exact line in the same year and production run.
They are all quite close but not at all the same.

Gary

First off , what does FWIW, mean?

Okay. I am wrong and I am sorry for that.

I understand that you could custom order.

I was wondering - did Altec dealers have several pairs in stock, or were the speakers custom order to begin with? Does anyone know?

So, basically - any large Altec speaker with a horn is considered a VOTT? It does not matter about the actual configuration of the components?

Thanks.

-Storm.

don't forget the 416-8C Gary, we have a member on the other board ready to flip his 19's because the -8C has significantly different/less desireable bass response in the 19 as opposed to the alnico -8A and -8B versions.

Gary correct me if i'm wrong, but looking here doesn't the A7X use EXACTLY the same components as the 19 with the exception of the larger 511 horn?

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1978-home/page12.jpg

FWIW=for what it's worth

Occupatto, in my opinion VOTT refers to any of those industrial grey horn type enclosures that were originally intended for use in theaters for broad, even, accurate reproduction of voice and music. It has become a very slanged and loosely used term. I don't think just because a speaker has an altec horn and woofer makes it a VOTT, others feel differently.

I truly encourage you to study the bulk of resources at the heritage library, you will even discover a few minor contradictions among their own literature, but overall you'll find a lot of vast and enlightening information that a lotta folks don't take the time to peruse.

Yes Bowtie but with one exception. I have never seen a Model 19 with a XO network that said 1201 on it. They all say MODEL NINETEEN on the front plate but I am told they are one in the same.

The model 19 is a number given to the home version of a particular speaker that came in either oak or walnut veneer. Very similar speakers were produced but had different number designations when the components were placed in plywood or stage ready cabinets.

Gary

don't forget the 416-8C Gary, we have a member on the other board ready to flip his 19's because the -8C has significantly different/less desireable bass response in the 19 as opposed to the alnico -8A and -8B versions.

Gary correct me if i'm wrong, but looking here doesn't the A7X use EXACTLY the same components as the 19 with the exception of the larger 511 horn?

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1978-home/page12.jpg


I need to talk with this member :smoke:

Great thread folks! I just purchased a pair of M19's so this is great info for me. I am not sure what is inside the cabinets but will pick them up Saturday and hopefully, unload and open them up so I can see the components.

I am a novice overall when it comes to Altec speakers although I just discovered I had a pair of Grey 803/416 (Heathkit) woofers from 1959. Need to be reconed but I am not sure if these are desireable or not as well as some large crossovers N-500 maybe?, and 605A cabinets. This is in addition to the Heathkit Altec AS-21's. Guess I should look at what I have stored more often!

Appreciate all of the shared knowledge you folks are providing!

I have never seen a Model 19 with a XO network that said 1201 on it. They all say MODEL NINETEEN Agreed

My feeling is that a great deal of emphasis was put on the cosmetics of the 19, and probably crossover substitution was not allowed.

But, from first hand experience i can tell you anything is/was possible. January of '79 we dragged home and pair of model 17's, brand new in their boxes. One had a network that was labeled MODEL 17 (604-8G), the other network was labeled Stonehenge III. They are both identical networks, but obviously the stonehenge 3 network was a leftover for a speaker then 3 years out of production. Maybe they just figured us "east coasters" wouldn't know the difference.

I'll be the first to agree that Altec did some strange, and sometimes less than favorable things, especially in the later years.

Welcome Barry, If yours are the Raliegh/eshreck ones I am pretty sure they should have 416-8Bs and 802-8Gs unless owner switched.

I am not up to speed with the 803 woofers but you could certainly call Bill at GPA and get the skinny on it. Possibly it could be re coned to 416 specs.
Let me know if you need his number.

Gary

Okay. I am wrong and I am sorry for that.
I don't think an apology is necessary, you've fueled a great discussion where every one of us who participates will come away with more knowledge and information................... this is the one of the big things that sets AK apart from the other audio forums.

Yep, I have heard all sorts of things like this.
Altec was certainly not alone. If you happen to own a beautiful set of KHorns there is absolutely no telling what drivers are inside unless you open them up fo ID.
When I hear a guy say his 19s are better then my 19s I always have to think, He may be right!

Gary

I just discovered I had a pair of Grey 803/416 (Heathkit) woofers from 1959Gary makes the best suggestion with a call to GPA. AFIK, the 803 evolved into the 416, infact i think the only difference between late 803's and 416A's (not to be confused with 416-8A) are the same woofer. At some point the 803 went from an all paper surround to the pleated cloth doped surround. If your heath's have the doped cloth surround i think it's safe to call them a 416A or 416Z, GPA will give you the exact specifics on this.

So this brings me to a question about my Valencia 846B's and the woofers. From the 1975 Home Catalog, it shows the Valencia having the 416-8B woofer which says it's a "die cast aluminum frame"...ok. Here's a link (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Altec-416-8B-15-woofer-NEVER-USED-nos_W0QQitemZ280079000579QQihZ018QQcategoryZ50597Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) to an auction for a pair of them on Epay. The woofers in MY cabinets say that they are 416-8Z's which have the same cast frame (it appears) but the magnets look different.

What's the difference?

I have heard of GPA but who are they and how do I contact them?

Gary, they are indeed the ones in Raleigh.

Barry

http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/

EDIT: Bill Hanuschak worked for Altec from 1980 to 1998 when EV shut them down. He was a loudspeaker production engineer, acoustic design tech, and acoustic product engineer, he is ................... GreatPlains Audio. He has and uses much of the original tooling used to make the diaphrams and voice coils from the original Altec products.

For those of us hopelessly obsessed with Altec, Bill is the Grand Wizard!

So this brings me to a question about my Valencia 846B's and the woofers. From the 1975 Home Catalog, it shows the Valencia having the 416-8B woofer which says it's a "die cast aluminum frame"...ok. Here's a link to an auction for a pair of them on Epay. The woofers in MY cabinets say that they are 416-8Z's which have the same cast frame (it appears) but the magnets look different.I believe those -8B's have 1 piece cast return pot, your Z's have a welded steel return pot, and A's/8A's have the same welded steel return pot but have a tin cover over them.

I cannot attest to one sounding better than another, but i can tell you that the -8C version of the 416 has very different T/S paramters, there's some variation between all models.

GPA is Bill at 405-789-0221

Gary

Altec also built some pretty significant models for export that have rarely if ever been seen in this country.

Did they ever make anything better than the 19?

Possibly, in very small quantities, imagine shipping these puppies:

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/speakers/6041%20Hi%20Fi%20Speaker.pdf

I sure would like to know more about those tweeters!

Aren't those 6041's upside down in that photo? It looks like the tweeters would be aiming about 4-5 feet above the engineer's head! From what I remember of the similar-looking UREI 813's, the 604 duplex's were usually on the bottom...

Great Thread Guys. Is there that big a difference between the 416-8B and the 416-8C? I know that Altec put the 8-C in the last Model 19's they made. Must be the ferrite magnet because the frame looks the same. I have some 9849 VOTT's and one has a 414-8A Alnico magnet and the other has a 414-8B ferrite magnet and I cannot tell the difference.

Agreed................ think they were intended to be floor standing. I think in a control room/studio, i'd soffitt mount them horizontally rotating the 604's 90 degrees to maintain correct dispersion.

Note that when i said tweeter i was referring to the 6041 supertweeter and not the HF section of the 604. I wonder if that tweeter was "outsourced" and if so what the heck is it?

Is there that big a difference between the 416-8B and the 416-8C?I cannot relate first hand experience, i can however refer you to a thread on the altec board where and intelligent experienced user has modeled both woofers and is also unhappy with the bass performance of his 416-8C equipped model 19's. The results of his modeling supports his claim of disappointing bass performance.

414-8A AND 414-8B should both be alnico motors, i "think", the ferrite version would be 414-8C. Pretty sure it's the same as with the 416's, the -8A's will have a tin cover over the welded return assembly, the 8B's use a more modern looking either cast return assembly or a very tight fitting cover. The ferrite 414's are unmistakeable as the magnet is nearly as big around as the baffle opening.

Remember that even tho 2 woofers appear identical, and their parameters are similar, each can behave quite differently in the same given box.

Seems like a fellow member was looking into building a clone of these. Theophile maybe :scratch2: ?

I am a novice overall when it comes to Altec speakers although I just discovered I had a pair of Grey 803/416 (Heathkit) woofers from 1959. Need to be reconed but I am not sure if these are desireable or not as well as some large crossovers N-500 maybe

I stand corrected as the Heathkit Altec speakers are Model # 401-17's which MAY be the equivalent of the 803/416 (maybe not). No indication if they are 8 or 16 ohm. I may have an ohmeter somewhere but is there any way to tell ohms on these other than a meter? I assume they came in both.

Also, thanks for the link and # for GPA. Not sure what it will cost to recone but I am sure it is worth looking in to.

B

My Mistake, the 414-8C has the stepped Alnico Magnet and the 414-8E is the Ferrite Magnet. I knew they were different from the 416's. Just goes to show you how cut and dried Altec's A-B-C is between speaker sizes, not very.

Anyways, here are the links.

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/speakers/414-8C%20LF%20Speaker.pdf

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/systems/9849-8B%20Speaker%20System.pdf

Hillman, I have the 414-8Bs in my 9849s and all I can say is that is probably one of the finest sounding woofers Altec ever made.
I think Bowtie has 98XX models that contain two 414s and they must have fantastic bass response and the mids to go with it.

My idea of one of the best all around Altec speakers would certainly be a box containing 2-414-8Bs and an 811 horn with 802-8G driver. Where the 416-8B is a bit short in the mids the 414 is not.

Gary

Interesting post, guys. :thmbsp: All I know for sure is that if I had more room, I'd have another pair! :D

While we are at it we can open another entire can O worms and mention names like Heathkit, Roe Ami, simplex and a few others that all contained some very fine Altec drivers and components.
I have seen some very pretty Heath models that will rival many of Altecs own cabinets in workmanship and finish and should always be looked at when treasure hunting.
I think Barry has a gorgeous set of maple heaths that could be had and sure ought to sound great.
It has a great deal less to do with the name on the front or rear and more to do with whats inside.

Altec sold speakers and didn't much care who bought them or what box they went into or what name ended up on them in the end. You can find great Altec Vintage drivers in the strangest of places and applications and even the military was a big user.

Gary

Gary, I think I told you what I plan to do with my 9849's. Veneer them in Walnut and add the Model 15 xover's & 802-8G HF drivers to them. I will have to change the Xover point down to 1500 Hz though. I sure wish I could find another 414-8C and have been looking, never see them. May have to send the other 414-8E in and have the magnet glued back on and both reconed. When I get the house done and basement set up, these will be my rear surround speakers with my 19's up front. I may build a center channel with the remaining 414-8C and use a 902 and Mantaray or 32B horn . Maybe get a few tweeters from Paul like the ones he suggested. Then I can sell all my AR HiRes speakers and use all Altec's.

Just goes to show you how cut and dried Altec's A-B-C is between speaker sizes, not very.
You're absolutely correct! I stand corrected.

One of those things that would perfect sense, so indeed it's NOT that way.

Now that there are more people involved in this thread --- I have one question....

Does anyone know if Altec Loudspeakers were custom ordered?

Or, did Altec dealers have enough in stock that you could take them with you the same day?

I would think it would be kind of huge gamble - the bigger systems - being that shipping was probably expensive and back then, a pair of Valencias sold for $960, or about $3K todays money.

I bet they were custom ordered.

What do you guys think?

-Storm.

I would imagine that the home speakers were not made to order but probably could have been if that makes sense. The VOTT’s were advertised a certain way and probably could be special ordered with different drivers. I bet there were price cuts and price breaks depending on what you ordered, how many or what drivers you used. Lord knows there are many variances of Altec’s out there. Some components were just changed out over the years because of price or availability. Heck, many speaker companies will help design a speaker to your specs if you buy enough of them. I know Eminence will for drivers. This is mostly speculation mind you.

Great question Occupatto, I bet the answer would vary depending on the specific systems and the era of production.

I'm sure there are certain things that they built everyday at the factory all year long, while other things were produced in far smaller numbers.

Also, Altec's heyday was during a time when the word "dealership" meant a lot more. Likely they had a good communication network thru their dealers, and could somewhat accurately forecast demand.

Interestingly there is a set of magnificents on that auction site that have date codes on the components from the 50th and 52nd weeks of '64, and 1st and 2nd weeks of '65 which suggests to me that those components saw little shelf or wharehouse time. Consider the 51st week is Christmas, so those components were all made in a span of 4 production weeks suggesting to me that at that time they weren't making raw components very far ahead either.

I'd guess that at least in the case of magnificents, they were more than likely a special order item.

But in the 70's where the home models are concerned, i'm pretty sure they produced large numbers and then marketed/advertised the bejeezus out of em. We always stocked a few of the smaller models in our store, and larger models were wharehoused in NJ by our supplier F.A.D. Co. I remember a customer ordering model 15's and picking them up maybe a week later.

We bought our 17's brand new from a department store of all places!

Keep in mind I am talking about pro stuff and not home models here.

Dealers and sound contractors had full abilities to order what they refered to as Load Sets for a particular cabinet such as the A7-500. Yes there was a sandard load set for that speaker but a theater or a band or a school auditorium might require different load sets so it was very common to simply order the cabinets you wanted as well as what components you wanted in them.
With home models they were pretty much what they were depending on the year and model. In 1976 when I bought my 19s they came with 416-8Bs, 811B and 802-8Gs. Later versions did get the 8C woofers and I think the 902 drivers while some of the very earliest could have had 416-8As or even 803s.

Valencias/846s were similar in that they had some standards that did change throughout the production run and even some variations depending on the A, B & U designations. It could be said all valencias had 416 woofers and 811B horns and 806A drivers but I think you might find this is not necessarily correct and there certainly is some differences between the 416-8A&Bs and later versions such as the C & Zs.

All I will say for sure is if I wanted an A 7 with 515Bs and 511 instead of 811 horns they could easily be had the exact way I wanted them. Altec was in it to sell speakers and didn't much care how you wanted to build them for your application.

Good ideas there Hillman, I know if you do the veneer work they will be gorgeous but I still think you could use 800, 1200, 1500 or 1600Hz XOs with your 9849s and 802-8Gs.

Gary

Hmmm...I thought that the 416-8A and 416-8Z were the same driver, with the exception that the 416-8A has the magnet cover, and the 416-8Z does not..?

Be sure it is a 416-8Z and not 416Z, 416Z i'm pretty sure will be 16 ohm.

The model numbers didn't become hyphenated until they began to offer 8ohm variants. 416-8A is an 8 ohm woofer, the 416A is a 16 ohm woofer.

If you're not confused yet (i am), please read on

I'm pretty sure MOST "Z" variants will be 16 ohm and without a magnet cover, all that i've seen have indeed been including the 414-16Z's in my 9844A's.

Just looked at the repair parts list at GPA and it lists no less than 9 variants of the 416 woofer! Including a 416-8Z, which blows outta the water my theory of ALL "Z's" being 16 ohm.

Does get confusing, doesn't it? :) Mine use the 416Z, 16 ohm, which again I have heard is identical to the 416A, save for the magnet cover. Though the drivers in mine are 16 ohm, the label on the back states that it is "8 or 16 ohm". :scratch2:

Did they ever make anything better than the 19?


Don't forget about the Magnificents....

Is anyone bringing some large Altecs to the AKFest?

If not, Does anyone have some large Altecs in the Ohio, Indiana or Michigan area that I could get a listen to?

Dan

Pair of Altec 14's with a BIN of 1800.00 SOLD with a best offer of 1600.00 which is how this thread got it's start, to me prices are all over the place

Proof that what I said earlier is true and I am stuck in a groove as far as prices these days.
I still think the buyer will be happy if they are honestly advertised and working great.

Gary

My view on prices -

If someone has the cash and wants them, then have at it.

Price is relative anyways. Where else can you get speakers like that for WAY under what you would have to pay if you went to one of those high end audio stores.

I bet you would have to slap down at least $5K to get comparitive sound.

So, if you even spend $2K on a pair of used Altecs, that is a bargain.

Money comes and money goes...but music will last forever.

I think Altecs are going for way too cheap.

If half the amount of people who purchase JBLs knew about Altec, I doubt the prices would be this low.

Just look at the far east. They are scraping up all the best of our vintage audio, including Altec and JBL.

Let's learn now - before they are all gone. The people who are buying them in the far east obviously know something, that these speakers are worth at least 5x times more!

If you find a good pair of Altecs and you can scrape the money up to buy them, do it!

My dad always told me - "You can always make more money." - smart man!

-Storm.

Storm,

I am looking forward to picking my M19's up tomorrow. And yes, much of our top end vintage equipment is going overseas as we in the US are not willing to spend the $$ that the Asian market is willing to cough up. When you consider shipping, they pay a HUGE amount in order to own pieces of US built American audio history!

Not sure that they know more than we do but many (not all) in our society think with a Wal-Mart mentality and are always looking to get things cheap or go to extremes with some of the newer Boutique equipment that dollar for dollar really has no better overall sound than the vintage equipment with we on this forum so highly covet. Nothing wrong with getting a bargain but as more goes overseas, the fewer opportunities we will have to experience the sound that created who we are today and much of the music that we listen to. These pieces are what made music explode in the 60's and 70's that were, and still are so much a part of our everday lives.

No more rant and just happy to know I have collected most of these gems and continue to expand my overall collection. While I too have sold many pieces to overseas buyers and have no problem doing so, I would love to see more stay here. That being said, the folks across the world only want what we do and I am glad they are enjoying the opportunities to purchase and enjoy also!:music:

My .02222

barrynsue,
Oh yeah.They know.

They know that given excellent electronics,a good pair of Altecs are very hard to beat.
They put their money where their mouth is.
They have no regrets.

Theophile,

Just to make sure my comment was not miscontrued, my point was that we here in the States do appreciate the quality but are not as willing to spend as much as you folks overseas that pay a HUGE premium just to get them shipped. In addition, you appreciate these fine vintage pieces so much that you are also willing to pay a premium to purchase them also.

Maybe we are just a little spoiled in the fact that the equipment manufactured in the Us is much more abundant and assume we will always find another deal at a cheaper price so we wait. If we keep waiting, in time we will have to pay the premiums to get it back!!:yes:

I for one am always happy to assist my buyers all across the globe and appreciate every last one of them!:thmbsp:

Barrynsue,
No problems,I promise.You probably have seen the reason for the domestic market being more demanding.A plethora of choice.Supply and Demand.
I know from my own experience that selected vintage can be sonically competitive with very high reputation new componentry.Even sonically superior than some with huge reputations.Worth seeking-out.Worth paying a competitive price.
That auction site has enabled me to have a system the likes of which I could only formerly dream about.Dreams which never would have been realised,had I been forced to look for this level of quality in new components.
A lot of foreign buyers have heard another's select vintage system and been set on the path to an overseas purchase.They must only be doing this because there was a special quality to the music reproduction which can't be found in another/other components.This then drives them to look to the marketplace(U.S) where they have the greatest chance of finding that cherished vintage supercomponent.
Luckily for future generations of US music lovers the resurgence of interest in vintage hi-fi will keep many pieces in the US.

Someone mentioned a model with two 414 woofers and an 811B horn? It's the 9844A studio monitor. There was also a home cabinet version as well as a Heathkit just like it as well. I have a pair of high mileage 9844A that sound fabulous. They don't lack much in comparison to my Klipschorns and have nicer mids in some ways.

The top sections are 811B with 806A drivers. Networks are N-800-F. One network was a fixed attentuation unit like nothing I've read about in a VOT model. Looked homemade. I replaced with a matching N800. Woofers are 414Z in one and 414-16B (I think) in the other. They sound identical.

You guys should really spend some time browsing the library at audioheritage.org. Tons of info there.

BTW, large studio monitors particularly of that era were meant to be soffit mounted, hence the HF sections on the bottom. The 9844A have a 10 deg downward angle to the pattern this way. Engineers need them up and out of the way for various reasons.

I would be very cautious when posting on audioheritage. They dont like to talk about Altec that much.

They love JBL at that forum and DIY guys are popular too.

Rest assured, the Altecs in my avatar are staying in the family for life! No oversea buyer will ever pursuade me to sell them.

At audioheritage guys tell me that once I hear JBL L200, JBL L300, or JBL 250TI's, that I will want to throw my Altecs away. Is this really true?

Oh, they dont like opinions either - must be facts.

That is why I like this site - clearly stated above; All Audio. No attitude.

Since the short time I have been here, I have seen no attitude and only a love for ALL audio. Unlike Audioheritage, which rarely talks about anything except JBLs and DIY stuff, no one talks about audio and everything else associated.

Thanks again for making an Altec owner feel welcome.

:music: ...I am truly in audio heaven!

-Storm.

Ben, sounds to me like you are running mismatched speakers, kind of like I am doing with my 9849's. Do the 414-16B and the 414Z have the same parameters? Probably do or close just maybe different years. I saw a pair of 414-16B's on EBay this week. A lot of us go to the Altec Library at www.lansingheritage.org/images/ and also to www.altecpro.com/products/vintage/index.htm for info.

I run my 9849's with the horn at the top. They are about 6 inches off the floor on stands slightly angled up. They sound much better to my ears that way rather than with the Horn at the bottom. If they were mounted on the wall, or higher probably wouldn’t make much of a difference.

I run my 9849-8Ds like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/Speakers/DSCN1414.jpg

I do so out of necessity but have found a few good points in this combination.

The bottom 15s sound great up off the concrete floor and on rare ocassions when more SPLs are needed I A+B both sets. Keeping the horns at ear level seems to produce the best sound stage in my room.

I enjoy each set by themselves for normal listening and have some mixed feeling when I am switching back and forth. The 15s have great horns with the 802-8Gs while the 9849s have great bass & mids with the 414-8B woofers.
I also think Altec missed out on a fine combination they could have called the model 16 by pairing the 414-8B woofer with the 15s cabinet, horn, driver and XO.
They are both 12" woofers yet will not interchange due to frame differences.

Gary

What is the white stuff on your speaker Gary? Shiny reflection or do they get you that excited? lol I still think the 9849 should be called the Mini-Valencia 846B.

http://www.tubesrit.com/audio/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=2

At audioheritage guys tell me that once I hear JBL L200, JBL L300, or JBL 250TI's, that I will want to throw my Altecs away. Is this really true?

Storm,

In my opinion, JBL L200 is not even close, L300 I am not sure of, but my memory says about the same as the L200. I never heard the 250Ti, but I hear the 250Ti is the best JBL ever produced. I sold the L200 and L300 new.. consequently I listened to them in many different setups and rooms... In my mind, my opinion is well founded.

That said, there are many many tweeks said to make the L200 and L300 more listenable such as wiring, stuffing the box, tuning the port and XO mods. There was at least one article in Speaker Builder magazine about how to improve them.. JBL built many great speakers. The L200 wasn't one of them.

Net result, tweeked out L200 or L300 I can't comment.. but stock, Hell no. Not in my opinion.

For others with opposing opinions: "Don't flame me because you don't like my opinion. You are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine. Opinions vary and to each his own.. You must be the judge. If you like them, that is great, you won't have to worry about me competing with you to buy them."

Enough said.

This is a great thread. I have never heard any Altecs other than my 17's with 604-8g. I love them. I know 19's are a totally different animal, but has anyone compared the 17s and 19s? I am just wondering what I might be missing. I am in the planning stages of changing over to Markwart crossovers, as mine are still originals. And have been looking for some Mastering Labs for a long time, but they seem nearly impossible to find. When they do show up, they go for big bucks. I appreciate if someone that has heard both 17s and 19s could comment.

Storm,

In my opinion, JBL L200 is not even close, L300 I am not sure of, but my memory says about the same as the L200. I never heard the 250Ti, but I hear the 250Ti is the best JBL ever produced. I sold the L200 and L300 new.. consequently I listened to them in many different setups and rooms... In my mind, my opinion is well founded.

That said, there are many many tweeks said to make the L200 and L300 more listenable such as wiring, stuffing the box, tuning the port and XO mods. There was at least one article in Speaker Builder magazine about how to improve them.. JBL built many great speakers. The L200 wasn't one of them.

Net result, tweeked out L200 or L300 I can't comment.. but stock, Hell no. Not in my opinion.

For others with opposing opinions: "Don't flame me because you don't like my opinion. You are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine. Opinions vary and to each his own.. You must be the judge. If you like them, that is great, you won't have to worry about me competing with you to buy them."

Enough said.

Did you sell Altecs also?

Wow, if you said that comment over at AH then you would have already had flaming responses.

I love this site - very honest people. Love it!

So, the L200 is not even comparable to what I have? What about the L300?

Thanks a bunch!

-Storm.

Hey Steve, why not just rework the xovers you have and make them the way you want? There are a few people here that can help you with it.

Cosmos comments are right on the money and I have said it right over in the LH site and never got flamed.

Facts are facts and there really is nothing wrong with L 200 and L 300 that can't be tweeked but therein is my concern, why should very expensive speakers need to be tweeked to sound great? Believe me, those speakers with the correct updates can sound every bit as nice and even nicer then our 19s but at what cost?

I suppose we could tweek our 19s as well or our 846s and the game never ends.

Regarding 19s Vs 17s; I heard them all in the showroom back in the mid 70s and picked the 19s over all of them. 14s, 17s, 18, 19s, L 200, L 300, K horns, CVs, Bozaks, Bose and a few others were all present.
The very hardest decision of them all was between the 17s & 19s. The 19s won and I really think it was a simple matter of they looked cooler and bigger and got louder. Back then just watching that 416 pounding was a big deal and the tiny horn in the middle obstucted my view.
I might get some flames here but it is possible the 17 is the nicer sounding of the two as far as a ballance is concerned.

I know Storm loves his 846s as I love my 19s but the 17s, 18s, 14s or 15s should never be overlooked and just might fit in with my less intense listening of today, 30 years later.
I have heard some mighty nice L 300s with updates and I have heard some mighty fine K horns but my favorite is still and always will be the 19s for a straight factory speaker to do it all.

Just an opinion ofcourse but one from a long life and love affair with the Altecs.

Gary

I would be very cautious when posting on audioheritage. They dont like to talk about Altec that much.

They love JBL at that forum and DIY guys are popular too.

Rest assured, the Altecs in my avatar are staying in the family for life! No oversea buyer will ever pursuade me to sell them.

At audioheritage guys tell me that once I hear JBL L200, JBL L300, or JBL 250TI's, that I will want to throw my Altecs away. Is this really true?

Oh, they dont like opinions either - must be facts.

That is why I like this site - clearly stated above; All Audio. No attitude.

Since the short time I have been here, I have seen no attitude and only a love for ALL audio. Unlike Audioheritage, which rarely talks about anything except JBLs and DIY stuff, no one talks about audio and everything else associated.

Thanks again for making an Altec owner feel welcome.

:music: ...I am truly in audio heaven!

-Storm.

Well, there's a ton of info in the library. No need to post in the forums if the responses make you uncomfortable. I was suggesting in response to a lot of questions that could be cleared up by clicking around on the multitude of images in the library. It's time consuming but worth it if you're interested the facts about the speakers rather than someone else's guess.

Regarding the mismatched speakers -
These were definitely a factory pair, but have seen commercial use. The original woofers were replaced at some point in their lives. Like I said, they sound identical to my ears. I've listened closely and found them to perform identically. If they were close but not quite exact, I could simply swap one of the woofers between cabs so I was running mirror imaged pairs.

I've only heard 19's in the showroom and in someone else's home and don't feel i've had enough exposure to them to pass any judgement beyond this:

Having lived with 17's for almost 15 years, and subsequently lived with 416-8B's and -8C's in various sized and tuned boxes, i think the mod 17 with it's 515 motored bass driver has hands down better low mid and bottom end than the 416 is capable of. On the other hand the 17 has a very small "sweet spot" and finds itself at home in smaller rooms than you would expect from a speaker that large, kinda supports the design logic of the 17 being built for control room monitoring, and the 19 being built to bring top notch hifi to even the largest of living rooms.

Where imaging is concerned, again i haven't lived with 19's and don't feel i can make an intelligent statement regarding the 19's in that department. I can say that the only other speakers i've heard come close to the 17's are tannoy dual concentrics, and the PAS DIY duplexes i'm currently running in my living room.

I guess in a nutshell i'd say which speaker (19 vs. 17/18) is better for any given person would depend most on room size and how dedicated your listening position is. Consider that most of my listening is done from an upright seated position at my desk, with my speakers placed/set up to put me dead center of the "sweet spot", if i move more than a foot in any direction it's evident that i'm approaching the boundaries of said sweet spot.

The 9844's used in a very similar set up and elevated so the 811 horn is at ear level have far far broader coverage and make it difficult to find the boundaries of the sweet spot, i suspect the 19's behave much the same way in this respect. I believe it's difficult with the 17's and other duplexes for 2 listeners in the same room at the same time to hear them exactly the same way.

Did you sell Altecs also?

Wow, if you said that comment over at AH then you would have already had flaming responses.

I love this site - very honest people. Love it!

Storm,

No, I did not sell Altecs. I wish I had the opportunity to be around them that much.

Regarding the other comments, we all have our opinions. I don't fault someone if theirs' if they differ from mine. When asked, I will volunteer mine. You are correct, I love this site for the people, their opinions and their willingness to share them.. whether I agree with them or not.

I honestly don't remember the L300 as well as I do the L200. Take my comments and opinions for what they are worth.. In the end, YOU need to make the judgment and decision.

Thank you all for your comments on the 17s vs. 19s. Since my room is only 11x13 I think I have the right speakers for me. I do listen what I consider nearfield (6' away) and they do sound great to me with my MC40 amps.

Also, thank you for suggesting I keep my original crossovers and just putting in new caps. I have no experience with changing caps to get the sound I want, so I wouldn't know where to begin. Actually, I can't think of what I would want to change in the way they perform. I did have an Altec friend test the caps and he said they were at spec., so I guess I have time to think about it and learn before needlessly changing things and spending money. He also spent a day listening to them with me when I first got them and he said they sounded exactly like they were supposed to. I have owned them for about 18 months and love them just as much as I did day one.

This has been a very cool thread with great info on some awesome speakers.

In a room such as yours WWWR I would highly recommend against the model 19s.
I am a firm believer there is such a thing as too much speaker for a given room and you will never realize the full potential of the 19s in yours at 6 feet away.
I would recommend the model 15s in such a tight space because they have the same HF driver but a much smaller horn and woofer and would probably have a much nicer presence.
One thing we all have to realize is that horn speakers do in fact sound the best when you can get far enough away to allow them to blend and give them a few watts to get moving a bit.
When I just want some low volume background music while doing other things and not particularly listening, I find my old Advents sound much better then my 19s until I start cranking them a bit. It might sound odd to most but the 19s really don't start to sound good until they have a few watts going to them. 15s are the same but they don't overfill a room and they do sound better when in a smaller room then the 19s.
I am not sure I am explaining this right but if the wife and I are talking and listening the 15s are perfect. If we want to get loud and don't wish to talk then the 19s get flipped on.

Gary

This entire concept of parts being worth way more then whole and working speakers is quite depressing when all things are considered. There won't be any more 14s or 19s and I really wonder how many have been parted out and the cabinets up in smoke because no one is willing to pay shipping costs.
We can build great cabinets and fill them with all the correct parts but we can't call them Altec 14s, 15s, or 19s.


Gary

I tend to agree with you completely Gary and I shudder to think at how many empty model 19 cabinets out there have been coverted into dressers & bookcases!:nono: But we'll never be able to say the supply has dryed up simply because we have NO way of knowing how many pairs of a given model number of speaker Altec produced. 500 pairs?....2000 pairs?....20,000 pairs? Nobody seems to know. Don't forget also all those speakers out there in permanent homes that'll never be up for sell (mine for example!) But, ah yes! I bought mine from an original purchaser who kept them from 1978 until I bought them in 2004. I was lucky. NO ebay and a $650.00 price tag. As for Altec prices, they seem to be all over the map depending on condition/location/local sell-vs-ebay/sellers ignorance (or lack of interest and just wanting to get rid of them....women for example:D and on & on.

The average for a nice pair of model 19's I'd say is somewhere between $1000 & $1200 bucks....but they CAN be found for less depending on above listed conditions. I think ebay has very little to do with current Altec pricing because I can say that I spent an entire summer back in 1989 jocking my telephone searching out a pair....I believe this was BEFORE the coming of ebay. (or the popularity of the internet, for that matter)....and I had 2 leads on a pair of 19's. One guy wanted $1000.00 FIRM for a pair in another state and another guy would NOT let his go locally even at my offer of $1500.00. The reason I never snagged the $1000.00 pair is a story beyond the scope of this thread, but I did give up looking for a long period and finally found a pair at a great bargin in 2004. Whew! The fact is....MOST Altec owners know what they have and set the price accordingly.

So if thats the case then why did I get mine for such a "steal" when the original owner knew exactly what he had? Who knows!! Well, I suspect the guy HAD to get them out of his mothers sewing room and the dude just wanted to move them quickly without having to deal with ebay. He simply did'nt care about taking a bit of a loss.

Right place at the right time indeed!:thmbsp:


Russ

My thoughts on parting out originals.

While for most of us parting out is at the very least an unsavory thought/act, it IS sometimes a necessary evil. Like gramma use to say "there's no bad, but what some good comes of it".

I deal with antique musical instruments, and i used to get quite worked up when i'd see certain things destroyed or rendered for parts. I now after many years realize that the cannibals and destroyers just serve to increase the value of my collection and those of my customers.

As more and more original Altec systems are rendered for their parts or out of ignorance, it just drives the value of the remaining ones up.

Also in Gary's case, if the trend continues he'll find that his investment in restoring all those drivers wasn't in vain as he'll likely be able to build scratch 19 cabs, and if he chooses he can sell the first "brand new" pair of 19's in over 20 years.

Since during this current season we've witnessed a pair of 802-8G's sell for 1125 bucks, would it be out of line to suggest that a newly constructed pair of 19's loaded with GPA freshly restored components should fetch 3000-5000 bucks?

Consider the model 14's that initiated this thread by selling at 1600.

So long as they're not my Altecs, please by all means part out and destroy as many as you can, it's really to my fellow Altec lovers and my own benefit in the long run.

I don't really have a problem with folks parting-out Altecs ( or other brands too) as long as the empty cabinets find a home for their intended purpose as well, even if it meant the guy had to give them away. I examine the walnut veneer on my 19 cabinets and the craftsmanship Altecs cabinet makers put into it is wonderful. This kind of work in speaker cabinets does not happen any more. Gary (gamalot) could likely build cabinets even better but he's one of the very few that could do this.

Garys earlier comment about unused cabinets possibly "Going up in smoke" after the seller of the original componets had no further use for them made me cringe:D ....I hope that don't happen often!

If I were a seller parting out a system I'd make sure the cabinets found a good home even if I had to give them away if I could'nt store them.


Russ

It seems to me that there have been alot of 17s that have been parted out. I see lots of 604 drivers and matching crossovers being offered, but rarely complete original Model 17s or 18s.

I think there where a lot of 604's sold as raw driver/crossovers especially considering their original design target was soffit mounting in studios.

I bought my 604-8G's off an original owner who bought the drivers/crossovers in the 70's and built his own cabinets for them. His boxes weren't that bad but slightly smaller and narrower than the 620A. New cabinets where a major step up sound-wise and I didn't feel bad about tossing the old ones.

I think there where a lot of 604's sold as raw driver/crossovers especially considering their original design target was soffit mounting in studios.

I bought my 604-8G's off an original owner who bought the drivers/crossovers in the 70's and built his own cabinets for them. His boxes weren't that bad but slightly smaller and narrower than the 620A. New cabinets where a major step up sound-wise and I didn't feel bad about tossing the old ones.


Thanks Bill. I wasn't sure how the 604s were primarily sold to the public. I kinda figured they were like most other speakers. I love the cabinets you built for your 604s. What are your suggestions on crossovers? I have looked at the ones you built, but I am not capable of duplicating them. Do you recommend I change the caps in my original with better ones, or find someone to build the Markwarts?

There's two pairs of 9844 cabs on ebay right now. I can't remember ever seeing those come up as empties. I see the drivers up all the time, but figured the boxes get dumped as they don't look like much.

They sure do sound right, though.

It seems to me that there have been alot of 17s that have been parted out. I see lots of 604 drivers and matching crossovers being offered, but rarely complete original Model 17s or 18s.Billfort is absolutely correct, as well as many horns and drivers Altec probably sold more 604's as raw speakers than they did in assembled systems.

When it comes to buying loose/raw 604-8G's it's very important to watch the date codes, as a rule i don't look at any made after the second half of 1978. It was at some point after that time that Urei was rejecting over half the 604's they were getting from Altec because of quality control issues.

This has made it difficult for me to obtain another pair at what i feel is a reasonable price.

What's a reasonable price?

I figure anything over 900 for a pair is too high as new and superior 604-8HII's can be had for under 1400. Consider full rebuild of 604-8G's is going to run upwards of 500 plus shipping (i personally wouldn't put original -8g's into service without rebuilding them first). Fact is that my -8G attraction is purely sentimental, altho the -8G might enjoy a slight LF advantage over the -8HII, according to listener's and spec sheets the -8HII has it all over the -8G in regards to HF pattern control and delivery.

In a nutshell it's much like comparing a BMW to a Mercedes, either one is a damn classy ride and will put a cheshire grin on it's owners face time after time.

just an additional windy .02 from the dimlit recesses of my mind

IMO the Model Nineteen is the best turnkey, all-in-one-box home speaker that Altec made. This on account of the extended bass from the large enclosure and extended highs form the EQed crossover.

Best Altec system I ever had was A5s augmented with dual JBL 4648s below 100hz and various tweeters used above 12,000hz. Neither turnkey nor all-in-one-box.

My Heathkit AS-21s (9844s) in furniture boxes sound marvelous but lack high frequency extension compared to the Nineteens and lead me to the notion that a dual 414--802-902 system with a Model Nineteen type EQed crossover could possibly be the best one box Altec system of all.

My 605As (in Barzilay cabinets) are the best imagers and have robust bass but sound a little warm in the vocals and lack high frequency extension. These would be a good candidate for an EQed crossover like Jeff Markwart's. Had I not come across the Nineteens I was going to tuneup the 605s by bi-amping and EQing and replacing the high frequency diaphragams, now they (and the new diaphragms, GPAs) sit unused.

My 890C Boleros are the best "small" speakers I've ever had and because of the amazing 406 woofer allow the presence and tonality of the big Altec in a small speaker. Excellent tonal balance and clarity.

Valencias, Iconics, Nineteens and other home Altecs use VOT components but are not VOTs. The Magnificent was, literally, a VOT.

Anybody up Ohio way wants to come down Kain-tuk-kee way and hear some Altecs give a holler, I'm retired and usually around. We oughta start a horn club in the Ohio Valley, the one in Chicago was great fun.

Tom, just how many pairs of Altecs do you have?! Where on earth do you keep these beautiful but massive speakers? :scratch2: Wish I were near enough to come and check 'em out. :thmbsp:

TS---I have a fairly large house. The AS-21s are in the living room, the Nineteens are in the HT room, the Boleros in the music room and the 605s in an alcove off the bedroom. But I think I'll sell the 605s.

A7s just sold and went down the road and I have Bozaks for the garage.

I've never had the guts to even think about spending the money to buy a pair of Altecs, until I started following this thread.

What an education! Not to mention gaining a bit too much enthusiasm. Let's see, if I sell a few things...

There have been quite a few threads over the last couple of years that truly exemplify everything that AK is all about. This is definitely one of them. It's been a pleasure to read it.

Fisher and Altec is like ham and eggs, corned beef and cabbage or cavier and champagne---those things that when together add up to more than the sum.

And I have lived with Altecs since the mid 70s and can't imagine all of those who have truely missed out.

I think if there is anything left to be said in this discussion it would be to listen to what has been said.
We don't keep bringing up the old greats just because, but rather, because they were and still are great.

Gary

Fisher and Altec is like ham and eggs, corned beef and cabbage or cavier and champagne---those things that when together add up to more than the sum.

Oh, stop it, willya!!

You're making it worse!:D

Oh, stop it, willya!!

You're making it worse!:D

Oh just bite the bullet and join the club!:thmbsp:

Hey Fisherdude, you have 1/2 the equation in your avatar. What are you waiting for? The price of Altecs to go up more? :D

The guys have a point, Fisherdude -- might as well jump in now. :) Guarantee you won't go wrong with whatever you buy, and they'd sure sound sweet with those tubes of yours, don't you think..? :scratch2: Besides, life's too short to wonder about what you might be missin'!

And you are missing a lot. I remember hearing Altec’s back in the 70’s and thought then I could never afford any. Things change. Now I know Altec’s are not only a lifestyle; they are some of the best sounding speakers obtainable for around a Grand. Well worth the money as you can tell from this thread. I have had many different speakers over the years. Older AR's & newer AR Hi-Res, KLH, Cerwin Vega, Mach One's, Sansui, Pinnacle & Advent to name a few. None of them can hold a candle to my M19's. The trick is to wait and find them local or within driving distance and save on shipping. Gary (gamalot) talked me into buying some trashed M19’s last April for $450.00. When they got to the house, my wife started in on me about how junky they looked and how big they were and how they were not coming into her house. I went chicken sh!t and told her they were Gary’s, lol. The only thing that was still working in them were the HF drivers. The 2 speakers were mismatched with components. One 802-8G had the old style cover that had 33952 printed on it. The other 802-8G had the new style cover. The LF drivers were different also. One was a 416-8A and the other a 416-8B, both blown. I found a big frame 420A on eBay, got it for like $6.49 and had it shipped to GPA. I sent the two HF and the 416-8A drivers I had to GPA at the same time. While they were gone, I re-veneered the cabinets and painted the horns. I was still looking for a 416-8B and the prices seemed to be going up fast. Got the drivers back and rebuilt the xover’s with some help from Dave Wojo on where he got his caps, values, and such for MJ Clemmer’s xover’s. A few caps were leaking on my originals. I used polyfill instead of fiberglass and some high-density foam mat material for dampening. I made sure both speakers were the same and yes, I used the three-side rule for dampening. Gary made the black bases for me. Put the M19’s together and they sounded fantastic. Picked up another 802-8G cheap on eBay with a 32B horn attached for like $75.00. I was still looking for that 416-8B and prices were really going up by this point. Finally bought one for $125.00 and had it shipped to GPA. Sent the 416-8B I had to GPA. Changed the LF drivers to 416-8B’s and Sold the two 416-8A’s to Gary. I honestly think the 416-8B’s sound better than the 416-8A’s. Probably all in my head. I am going to try some mods on my M19’s later on and will not cut or harm these in any way. Oh, by the way, Gary says he wants his speakers now, lol. These are the Best sounding speakers I have ever owned.

Post Script, Time Line approximately 8 months to complete.

Fisherdude, Let me tell you W/O question you need to get a pair of Altecs, Tom And Bowtie helped me out a ton I only have the 14's but I can tell you this within a week of getting my first pair They became the only speaker in my system 2 weeks later I had the chance to buy another pair and grabbed them, The first pair needed some cosmetic help But I got them for 400.00 the second pair I bought were as a package with a Compltete JBL amp Mixer exciter and compresser all in a roadie case , I gave the guy 550.00 and Ran.
When I started this thread it was because a pair of 14's sold for 1600.00, Botom line is that prices are all over the place BUT everyday one more person finds out that Altecs are all you will ever Need. Get a pair In the mean time I'm on the Hunt for the 19's!!!!

My Altecs have rendered all but a few other speakers in my home obsolete. I don't even have any of the coveted Altec woofers in any of the pairs I have. While I await the opportunity to get a pair of the "good ones" I am using Eminence drivers in conjunction with the horns. For me it is the sound of the horns. I will always be looking for deals on them and will try my best to buy them when they do appear.

I was in the super-freaky position of finding my Altecs at a Salvation Army store,here in Australia(for approx $190 US).
Let me tell you,you don't find 'em in thrift stores in Australia more than once in a lifetime.:no:
The biggest mindf*ck of owning Altecs,is just how well they convey the pros/cons,ability/incompetence of the system which preceeds them.
The Valencias have shown me more difference in preceeding electronics than anything I've heard,or owned.Oh,I have some gear which indeed sounds alike via the Valencias.Those are the pieces which share a level of ordinariness.You know,you'd call them competent(actually you'd call them good,if you didn't know better),but lacking that which elevates them above the pack.
The Altecs make judgements,ranking-type judgements child's play.The speakers themselves have so much sheer raw ability that they have the capability to convey more,more,MORE.
If you are lucky enough to afford to be able to buy the world's best componentry,or lucky enough to assemble a system of vintage's best gear of yesteryear,a good pair of Altecs will keep pace with and accommodate the abilities of the superlative accompanying items.
Of course the result of owning a pair of speakers which can discriminate so effectively is that a lot of gear with good reputations reveals itself as merely "nice" sounding(as opposed to faithful).The halfway results can sound so good you'd wonder why you'd ever want more,but still they have the ability to take your journey further.They can take you to a performance level(only with truly superlative gear)which seems only to exist in your wishes.The Altecs can show you that it isn't a dream.
Hi-Fidelity is the goal.Altecs just make it easier to ascertain how close you are to attaining it.:yes:

Thanks again guys -- an interesting post for me. :thmbsp: One of the reasons I love AK is that info, opinions and experience with gear that I love is so accessible and available. Keep it coming! :D

For what it's worth, I still have my Valencia 846B's and they are just in the garage covered up not being used. They just won't work in my setup because my listening room is similar to one of the others mentioned earlier. The room is both my office at home and listening quarters. I think it's maybe 11 X 10 and has to house a desk, a couch that folds out to a bed (when 3rd daughter is home), and the rack of stuff. My best choice for in here is the smaller speakers. I wish someone would give these speakers a proper home and enjoy them like they should be enjoyed. I know they are too big to ship reasonably and it's hard for me to imagine having to pack them up to do so.

If anyone out there is interested in a pair, please email or IM me and we'll see if we can work something out. If they go to a fellow AKer, I will definitely donate to the Forum as I love this site. I have learned lots of neat things here and only hope I have even partially given back to the site what it's given me...

I just scored some 414-8C LF drivers the other day on Ebay. They came up right after my post that I was looking for some. I must have AudioKarma. :scratch2:

So...What has changed since the last post. I have moved up the Altec food chain from a pair of 872B Madrids, to a pair of M19's, to three soon to be in transit Simplex W's and 1005/288 tar filleds. Yes there are still bargains to be had out there. The W's and associated horn/driver combos cost me slightly less than my M19's. OK, so the packing/shipping will be prolly 1.5 times the purchase price, but in general, still be well worth it from a sonic and value perspective.

Size does factor into the equation. Not many people are going to purchase the speaker system from a whole theater and try and find a way to cram it into a personal living space....:no:....:D

I have my priorities straight though....I'll find a house to fit my sound system into....:D

Seriously though, keep your eyes open, refuse to take "I don't know" for an answer, and be persistent. Great systems are still out there...

That sounds like it's gonna be an awesome HT and music system. :drool:
Keep us posted. :yes: