(Was) not hearing a difference between my NAD DAC and CD player: Border Patrol DAC SE Update

Thanks, I've been on the road, so I haven't been able to read and respond until now.

I'm well aware that the NAD DAC is mid-fi, but it's pretty good mid-fi. I have no illusions about it being in the same class as a better R-2R DAC like a higher end Schiit or Audio Note. I'm a fan of Non-Oversampling DACs, and of course the NAD isn't one of those. However, I'm a little annoyed that a similarly-priced CD player by the same manufacturer is essentially identical in sound. It's a fact; I accept it; I'm also annoyed. :no: I'll probably get over it. BTW, I appreciate dissimarly-priced gear being compared. In my many years of playing with audio gear, I know price isn't always the best indicator regarding audio performance, and especially when your preference for certain flavors of sound or presentation is taken into account. But, yeah, more often than not, you do get what you pay for.

I've been playing 44.1 kHz/16 bit CDs exclusively; I also have a Thinkpad with Daphile installed that has hi-res files. But I prefer playing CDs.

I also agree with botrytis about analog implementation of DACs. The chips are important, but how well their power is regulated and rectified, in addition to how the output is handled is crucial. That's why I like Audio Note, at least in principle, since I haven't heard their DACs in person yet. But I have direct experience modifying class D and Tripath amps and I know a stiff power supply is important.

I'll probably order an Audio Note DAC 2.1 kit before the year is out.

Thanks for your thought-provoking answers!

First, sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for. Second though, good for you! Like me, you seem to have been at it long enough to have established your own personal baseline for your system. You know what sounds good, different or better. As others have noted, the DAC IC is often not the most important part of the chain. Like you, I don't care for upsampling - some folks like it as it does impart its own flavor to the sound. The filter used will sometimes have the biggest impact on how the DAC sounds. All kinds of nasties can develop from the filter. For some, it's a plus and others it's a negative. I still listen to a lot of CDs and half the time I use my old 16 bit DAC from the 90s. It just sounds "right" to me. I have a couple of newer DACs and one of them is probably the best (for me) that I've heard in years. The other is a bit pricey too, but for CDs, I just just don't like it. It was one of those "deals" I couldn't pass up. But long term, not such a good investment. So, price is not the last word on how well something will sound to YOU.
Hang in there and keep looking - you'll find it, though you may have to audition a dozen DACs to find it.

Merry Christmas
 
Sometimes, what we hear doesn't seem to make much sense. You can pay a lot of money for a piece of equipment, hoping to get a better sound. And yet blindfolded, you might not be able to identify the piece of equipment you just bought. But you pretend the investment was worth it.
 
Don't regret it. If you're like me you judge gear by how good it sounds to you. I'm looking forward to your listening impressions!

Thanks, Mark. I can be a little hot-headed and over-sensitive at times. I go primarily by my direct experience and not by preconceived notions of how things ought to be. I used to do that, and I learned I was often wrong.
 
First, sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for. Second though, good for you! Like me, you seem to have been at it long enough to have established your own personal baseline for your system. You know what sounds good, different or better. As others have noted, the DAC IC is often not the most important part of the chain. Like you, I don't care for upsampling - some folks like it as it does impart its own flavor to the sound. The filter used will sometimes have the biggest impact on how the DAC sounds. All kinds of nasties can develop from the filter. For some, it's a plus and others it's a negative. I still listen to a lot of CDs and half the time I use my old 16 bit DAC from the 90s. It just sounds "right" to me. I have a couple of newer DACs and one of them is probably the best (for me) that I've heard in years. The other is a bit pricey too, but for CDs, I just just don't like it. It was one of those "deals" I couldn't pass up. But long term, not such a good investment. So, price is not the last word on how well something will sound to YOU.
Hang in there and keep looking - you'll find it, though you may have to audition a dozen DACs to find it.

Merry Christmas

Yep. I've had a bunch of DACs, and a bunch of CD players. My first CD player was a CAL Icon (the original, not the more common MkII), which my girlfriend at the time (1990?) was shocked to learn cost $600 or so. I really liked the sound of that one. More recently, I have found that the ESS Sabre DACs that I've heard often leave me feeling bored and restless after enjoying their initial startling clarity--I just don't get into the music as much. Perhaps it's just the implementation of the PS and analog output circuitry. I'm no expert, but I know what I like! I'm also a dinosaur who prefers to play CDs. I work with servers all day. I don't want to configure and troubleshoot any computer problems before hearing my stereo. It doesn't happen often, but it's aggravating as hell when it does. I like physical media better. I also listen to a lot of classical music and most meta-tagging is woefully inadequate or just plain wrong for classical music. And of course one of the big advantages of classical music is that there is no crushing of the dynamic range. Listening to (and playing) unamplified instruments is very satisfying to me. I hate headphones and how the sound statically follows your ears when you turn your head. It sounds accurate yet simultaneously fake to me. Yeah, I'm one of those guys.

I will get the BP DAC on Friday and I'll give it enough time to account for new-gear-love-syndrome before rendering a verdict on it. But I'm pretty sure my first impressions will be the ones that last--they usually do. I am very happy with my MicroZOTL through my First Watt F6. It's a quick, smooth, extended, dynamic, quiet combination--all that good hi-fi verbiage. My first OTL amp is a preamp!

Merry Christmas!
 
Sometimes, what we hear doesn't seem to make much sense. You can pay a lot of money for a piece of equipment, hoping to get a better sound. And yet blindfolded, you might not be able to identify the piece of equipment you just bought. But you pretend the investment was worth it.

I've been guilty of believing the emperor was wearing clothes. But time removes the scales from our eyes (or wax from our ears?). I loved Magnepans until I didn't. I still love big Maggies driven by big amps. They do so much right. But the smaller 1.7s and MMGs just don't do dynamics very well, and I've come to realize over many years that unfettered dynamics is high on my list of priorities. It sounds more real to me when it's jumping. To me, DACs are trickier. I think the sound of most of them is more similar than different. I think my NAD DAC sounds similar to the one in my Yamaha A-S501. In fact the Yamaha's sound is fantastically neutral (I wasn't crazy about it at first and have come to love it) and works great as a TV/movie amp. So the Yamaha is a counterexample of "hoping to get a better sound," then not thinking you are, and then coming to realize that it was great for its purpose (video dialog, primarily, for me) all along. That's a rare exception, I admit. Still, its sound is not quite good enough for me--for the music I listen to.

Bottom line with regards to your statement is that you're right. But in case it isn't clear, I bought the DAC last year and was sort of content with it. I was using a DVD player as a transport and gave up on that since it was such a PITA. So I used my computer-based audio system for a while and came to realize that I wasn't enjoying music very much (sound and interface were not good). I bought the CD player a couple of weeks ago, simply to use as a transport. I was dismayed to find out that I couldn't hear the difference between the CD player's sound and the DAC's. Maybe I should be happy instead? Anyhow, onward with a new DAC!
 
Okay, what's the next step? Schiit Yggrasil? PS Audio DirectStream Junior? Holo Audio Spring DAC? Or?

The next step is to send me your money because I'm running out and there are still speakers I haven't tried yet. Bigger Maggies, for example
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Your thread caught my eye because I was reading reviews of $3500 and $5000 DACs last night and wondering what I might be missing.
 
grundigger

I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the BP DAC as it is well reviewed plus the guys at LTA like it enough that they sell it along with their gear. As for your preamp, that is one well respected little piece. I've got a friend running it in front of Triode Corp. 845 mono's into SF Stradivari and he thinks it may be the best sounding he has had in his system including a CJ GAT. The system is fronted by a Lumin U1 and the Directstream DAC.
 
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The next step is to send me your money because I'm running out and there are still speakers I haven't tried yet. Bigger Maggies, for example
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Your thread caught my eye because I was reading reviews of $3500 and $5000 DACs last night and wondering what I might be missing.

Your check is in the mail!
 
grundigger

I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the BP DAC as it is well reviewed plus the guys at LTA like it enough that they sell it along with their gear. As for your preamp, that is one well respected little piece. I've got a friend running it in front of Triode Corp. 845 mono's into SF Stradivari and he thinks it may be the best sounding he has had in his system including a CJ GAT. The system is fronted by a Lumin U1 and the Directstream DAC.

That is one impressive system. Dang!

I'm waiting for Louis of Omega Loudspeakers to finish up my speakers. Once I have them in and have had a chance to get to know them a bit, I'll do a little write up on the Border Patrol DAC. That might be a few weeks from now. I'll create a separate thread for that. I just bought a demo WT Simplex/Ortofon Black/Sugden A21 phono stage. That will keep me busy, too!
 
Yes it is and the way things go with him there is no telling how long any of that stuff will stay put. I've never heard any of Louis' speakers but know he has a large devoted following on AC and many are using LTA gear with them. An amp I always wanted to try but even my Spatial Triode Masters are not really efficient enough in a large room is the Coincident Dynamo SE Mk II. Similar power as the ZOTL 10 for about half the price.
 
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Don’t be discouraged by the fact that your CD player sounds excellent. You can return the DAC if you aren’t using it for other sources. I am with you, buy what you can hear the difference for, and ignore the rest.
 
I have an old Assemblage DAC which is fed optically by my Yamaha CDP (has a Burr-Brown PCM5142 to produce analog). Both sources are plugged into my Mc 4300V receiver and can be A/B'd. There is a slight yet maddeningly distinct "presence" difference brought by the DAC. I would characterize it as a deeper, wider soundstage particularly in the mid frequencies. As I listen to a lot of vocal music, I prefer the DAC sound, but I am still searching for that elusive (expensive?) DAC which would really clear things up in an organic fashion .... i.e., more "musical". cheers everybody.
 
I have an old Assemblage DAC which is fed optically by my Yamaha CDP (has a Burr-Brown PCM5142 to produce analog). Both sources are plugged into my Mc 4300V receiver and can be A/B'd. There is a slight yet maddeningly distinct "presence" difference brought by the DAC. I would characterize it as a deeper, wider soundstage particularly in the mid frequencies. As I listen to a lot of vocal music, I prefer the DAC sound, but I am still searching for that elusive (expensive?) DAC which would really clear things up in an organic fashion .... i.e., more "musical". cheers everybody.

For vocals you should try a NOS DAC, they have a different presentation than the oversampling designs. No need to spend 3-4 digits to get a glimpse of the NOS sound, something like this will given you an idea if you like it or not: https://www.amazon.com/Tda1543x4-DI...85&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=muse+usb+tda1543+dac
 
Thanks, Mark. I can be a little hot-headed and over-sensitive at times. I go primarily by my direct experience and not by preconceived notions of how things ought to be. I used to do that, and I learned I was often wrong.
I recently bought the DAC 0.1x Dac and there is absolutely no noise whatsoever - I have extensive experience with their DACs and CD players and there is absolutely no audible noise. Noise can occur if there is a bad tube. My LM 215 has a small hum due to a tube which I will need to replace.

One thing to note though about AN DACs and CD players is they are not what you expect in that you see the words tube and expect a warm sound - don't. They are the opposite in most ways as they allow more signal through - as they're not brickwall filtered. Comparing the AN DAC to many high priced SS cd players in the same room with the same gear at the same volume the AN unit sounded the least homogenous - so while CD players from Bryston and Sim Audio and others presented Lady Gaga and Pulp Fiction Soundtrack, Beethoven and Miles Davis a certain way with similar treble and bass and pitch - the AN CD 1.1 differentiated those recordings - piano sounded different and varied - one track would sound very good - one would tell you the artifacts in the recording more.

There is no noise - I have heard AN CD replay, reviewed it and I have used HE speakers - never heard a single person in 20 years on any forum I've been on state that AN DACs were noisy.
 
Opted for BorderPatrol DAC SE. Report forthcoming in a week or two.

I really liked this DAC at the California Audio Show. Border Patrol has a bit of an interesting relationship with Audio Note. I'm not surprised they have emulated AN's designs.

Indeed check out this article on Border Patrol https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/11/23/on-the-road-a-visit-to-borderpatrol/

And those transformers sure look like AN transformers. Border Patrol and Volti were in my top 3 rooms at California Audio Show - at the time I didn't know that Border Patrol was a NOS design. Coincidence? It's clearly better sounding digital than your average bear. I am pleased to see so many companies following Audio Note on NOS and removing at least the digital filter.
 
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I've been listening to the Border Patrol DAC for a couple of weeks now, and the first few CDs I heard sounded good--the CDs were nothing audiophile-oriented, so everything was noticeably "clearer" and pleasant. Then I put on Laurie Anderson's Big Science. Whoa! Talk about deep and expansive! There have been numerous other times when I felt the need to stop and listen more carefully, as I don't tend to listen to CDs as closely as I do to vinyl. I'm happy with the sound, to say the least.

I don't have my streaming stuff hooked up, so no comment on hi-res stuff.
 
I've been listening to the Border Patrol DAC for a couple of weeks now, and the first few CDs I heard sounded good--the CDs were nothing audiophile-oriented, so everything was noticeably "clearer" and pleasant. Then I put on Laurie Anderson's Big Science. Whoa! Talk about deep and expansive! There have been numerous other times when I felt the need to stop and listen more carefully, as I don't tend to listen to CDs as closely as I do to vinyl. I'm happy with the sound, to say the least.

I don't have my streaming stuff hooked up, so no comment on hi-res stuff.

Border Patrol maxes out at 16bit/96kHz, not quite hi-res. It is more of a redbook DAC. Try to A/B classical music between your CDP and the Border Patrol. I found that classical doesn't sound all that well with NOS, especially the violins, too soft, but maybe it is just me.
 
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