Teach me about the pros/cons of a dedicated Preamp and power amp over an integrated

I believe that matching a separate power amp to a pre is as important to its success or failure as the choice between integrated and separate . I would if possible choose a power and pre amp that were designed to go together. If not I would plan on experimenting with different combinations, or more likely just look for a good high quality integrated with more than enough power to drive my speakers.

I like my Kenwood separates because they were built for each other with the intent to compliment.
 
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My preamp has 2.1 HT bypass with high & low pass filtering. I don’t use it for my HT. I use it for my sub. I’m not sure I’d find this on an integrated.
 
I have always been a fan of Integrated Amps, a nice step up in quality over run of the mill receivers and even some "better" receivers. As I am not a fan of radio, why pay for a tuner, that I never use? I did make the leap to seperates about a decade or so ago and was pleased with the upgrade in quality sound. That being said it was an apples versus oranges fight both in wattage and cost. I will say that as I am approaching retirement, forced or otherwise, and the realities of the golden years dawn upon me, my plan is to revert back to an Integrated Amp for the sake of simplicity. 1 button on & off with a 12V trigger to the cd player. The "KISS" theory, keep it simple stupid.
 
Another pro to the integrated, the pre and power are a matched set, designed to go together. Having multiple systems I currently have pre with two power amps biamping the mains, and an integrated as pre with two power amps biamping the mains, another with an integrated driving the mains, and my son's rm a receiver driving the mains.

All are enjoyed equally, it's not a matter of which is best, but which suits the situation best.

It's a hobby, have fun.
 
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87 db i meter 1 watt with a response from about 40 to 20,000 Hz. They are very flat from 300 hz on up, but are very susceptible to room loading and placement is what I found.

With the small woofer they aren't going to produce big levels with low distortion, so I would Imagine 100 watts would be about it unless you install a high pass filter to roll off the bass below 40HZ saving stress on the amp and speaker. Listening at 10 ft you might just be able to reach concert level with no provisions for peaks. 104 db with both speakers operating. But as average folks listen around 85 db with 10 to 15 db peaks you make it just under the wire. They work rather well in smaller rooms with short listening distances and have a nice ambient sound that some folks really love. I prefer speakers with a firm foundation to build upon. But having speakers that are pleasant to the ear and sacrifice a little bass allowing the room to make up for the weakness is sometimes a good thing.
 
87 db i meter 1 watt with a response from about 40 to 20,000 Hz. They are very flat from 300 hz on up, but are very susceptible to room loading and placement is what I found.

With the small woofer they aren't going to produce big levels with low distortion, so I would Imagine 100 watts would be about it unless you install a high pass filter to roll off the bass below 40HZ saving stress on the amp and speaker. Listening at 10 ft you might just be able to reach concert level with no provisions for peaks. 104 db with both speakers operating. But as average folks listen around 85 db with 10 to 15 db peaks you make it just under the wire. They work rather well in smaller rooms with short listening distances and have a nice ambient sound that some folks really love. I prefer speakers with a firm foundation to build upon. But having speakers that are pleasant to the ear and sacrifice a little bass allowing the room to make up for the weakness is sometimes a good thing.
Wrong thread?
 
Separates:

Pros:

Flexibility. If you need more power, you replace one component, the power amp. Or more inputs, you can replace preamp, and etc.

Service/Downtime. Similar flexibility as above. Borrow a component from another system, or from a stash - don't have to send all to shop.

SQ. Varies by brands and models, but separates are often a brand's best effort.

Cons:

Usually a higher price.

Take up more space, and heavier.

May require careful matching, especially when mixing brands. (also can be an advantage, though)

Requires more cables.

Often lower WAF.


Integrated Amps:

Pros:

Take up less space, usually.

Less cabling.

May be less expensive.

Cons:

SQ may not be as good as separates.

Servicing requires sending whole thing, of course.


My brain is running slow this morning, so I probably have glaring omissions. Regardless, even the few I cited aren't always accurate. It comes down to cases. I dare say my integrated's SQ will compete in respectable separates territory, as well it should. I do think, however, that it is in careful matching by those with access and experience which provides the key advantage of separates.
 
I don't get the need for a "matched set". Wouldn't just about any good low distortion power amp compliment a nice preamp?
Yes and No.

I recently tested that theory by dropping a Hafler 9180 in place of my Counterpoint amp in main system.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....mp-or-my-old-hafler-9180-is-no-slouch.765891/

Although the Hafler performance did surprise me, it was out of the league of the Counterpoint. "Any amp" is not a good compliment, but the better your Pre Amp is, the better it will allow your Amp, mediocre or higher end, to perform.
 
Separates are great. However, I wanted tube power from Rogue Audio and their Cronus Magnum integrated was only about $100 more than the Atlas, which is amp only. That $100 bucks bought an integrated tube preamp, phono pre and high quality remote control. There are variable and fixed outputs on the amp, so I could use the pre with another amplifier if I wanted to experiment.
 
My Cary Audio SLP 50B tube pre-amp and Carver solid state C2 pre-amp played separately with:
Carver Magnetic Field Power Amplifier M-200t
Marantz 4140 Quad Integrated in 2-Channel
American SP-4 Modded Tube Amp
And a number of other amps and receivers.

It all sounded slightly different, some worked ok, some were orgasmic.

Like I said, it's like sex.
 
Yes and No.

I recently tested that theory by dropping a Hafler 9180 in place of my Counterpoint amp in main system.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....mp-or-my-old-hafler-9180-is-no-slouch.765891/

Although the Hafler performance did surprise me, it was out of the league of the Counterpoint. "Any amp" is not a good compliment, but the better your Pre Amp is, the better it will allow your Amp, mediocre or higher end, to perform.

I get what you're saying, but isn't the Hafler a $200-$300 amp and the Counterpoint closer to $1500? That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.

I'm currently using a good running modded Sansui AU999. I like the sound from the amp, I just don't think it is giving my Dahlquist speakers enough power to really open up. I thought running the 999 as just a preamp and getting a nice power amp that can give the speakers what they want would help.
 
No, the Hafler was a $650 amp when new and the Counterpoint was $4500 :) and it's a Hybrid


My Dynaudio speakers needed a Stratos Amp to perform better than the Hafler could drive them. Dyns open up nicely with more power and current.
 
No, the Hafler was a $650 amp when new and the Counterpoint was $4500 :) and it's a Hybrid


My Dynaudio speakers needed a Stratos Amp to perform better than the Hafler could drive them. Dyns open up nicely with more power and current.

My price guesses were off but the point still stands that that doesn't seem like a fair comparison.

Since I can't afford a $4500 amp, what should I be looking for in an amp that I can afford?
 
Not every power and pre amp combo is automatically superior to integrated amps. Actually the European audio companies have made it an art form to build quality integrated amps that are not a compromise in terms of sound quality. There are quite a few out there, and I have spent a year listening to one that is certainly a quality piece.

The Musical Fidelity NuVista M3 uses tubes in the pre amp stage, and a factory rated 275 WPC solid stage output stage. However the one I bought had a factory upgrade and is just north of 300 WPC. These amps can drive below a 2 ohm load, pass a ton of current, and can be paired with difficult load speakers. The architecuture is pure dual mono, and the power supply is choke regulated.

Integrated amps do not have to be a compromise.

mfm3a.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/201mf/index.html



Regards
Mister Pig
I have been enjoying the sh@t out of my Tri Vista since I got it, it's no compromise to my seperates, takes up less space has power to spare..it's a winner.
mf 114.JPG
 
I don't get the need for a "matched set". Wouldn't just about any good low distortion power amp compliment a nice preamp?
Sometimes the preamp's gain can be too much for a power amp to match well. Then there are other tonal qualities of both that together can create magic, or something along the lines of mud. Of course this is all subjective, but the chances are with a matched set in the integrated that it will sound better and work better than the power/pre that isn't a well matched set IMO.
 
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I get what you're saying, but isn't the Hafler a $200-$300 amp and the Counterpoint closer to $1500? That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.

I'm currently using a good running modded Sansui AU999. I like the sound from the amp, I just don't think it is giving my Dahlquist speakers enough power to really open up. I thought running the 999 as just a preamp and getting a nice power amp that can give the speakers what they want would help.

Your idea to leap-frog over the power section of the Sansui makes sense in terms of getting more power output. If you are fixed on retaining the pre section of the Sansui- and that's fine- it does not make sense to get crazy in terms of price on a power amp.

Today's budget power amps can likely better the power section of the Sansui in many ways. Your particular application does not require more than 100 watts so something from Emotiva would work very well at low entry price. Plus you can try it out for 30-days with the option to return it.

I don't know the Dahlquist 16 but I do have experience with the well known 10. It is not a system that can take a lot of power yet (to me) it was a system that seemed to want a lot of power to open up. Unfortunately the woofer seemed to get bogged down in thermal compression when pushed hard and this went counter to getting some punch and dynamics out of the system. Anyway, point I am trying to make is that there is probably a very real limit to what kind of power is needed in your project. So, I would think 75 to 100 modern watts is about what you should look for.
 
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