Idler wheel turntable opinions

Hello. Does anybody know a source of a belt for Kenwood/Trio turntable? I had bought two and they are too thick. Robert.

Unfortunately I don't have an idea where to get a belt for this Kenwood but if I find a source, I'll post it here.

Nice! Looks a LOT like mine!

Thanks!

Probably the nomenclature just differed due to where they were sold.

JE
 
I understand these are grease bearing turntables as are the early Garrards.
Can anyone here educate me about how grease bearing turntables work versus plain or sleeve bearings?
Is the grease likely have dried out?
Thanks in advance again for any advice!

I’m not in a position to describe the technical difference between grease and oil bearing Garrard 301. But I’ve been using an early gray grease bearing 301 for over 20 years as my main turntable. I’ve also had a chance to hear oil vs. grease bearing 301s fitted with the same tonearm/cartridge in familiar set ups and I cannot tell if there is a significant difference in sound between the two.

In the past I’ve used Castrol GTX which worked but too thick - took a little longer for the platter to get up to speed. Now I use 2.5 NGLI multi-purpose grease from Home Depot or Lowe's for my G301, Neat P58H and will use the same on the PC350 when the need arises.

JE
 
The Dual 1009 (I have the SK version) is a fun-sounding little table. Very punchy, but decent resolution!

I want to try it with a Benz MC cartridge.
 
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Also, I repair and restore Duals and many other brands. If you have questions about it, feel free. At this point, you have already found a wealth of assistance here. Have fun.
Hi Flasher 1. Thanks for offering to be a resource about questions on this turntable. I am planning to change out grease. It looks like there are two bearing wells: one for the spindle and one for a pulley driven by the belt. I am attaching pictures of the underside for reference. (I'm not sure "bearing well" is the correct technical name for the parts I am discussing. That's just my best guess.) The spindle bearing looks like it could easily be removed from above, but the other bearing well(?) looks like it would have to be removed from beneath.

Both of the bearing wells LOOK like the bottoms could be screwed off from beneath without removing them for the table itself. Do you think that would work OK?

Also, what is your recommendation for grease for these bearings? I have seen several types of grease recommended, and am curious if you have a preference.

Thanks again for offering to help. Sorry if I am being a PITA.
 

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Hi Flasher 1. Thanks for offering to be a resource about questions on this turntable. I am planning to change out grease. It looks like there are two bearing wells: one for the spindle and one for a pulley driven by the belt. I am attaching pictures of the underside for reference. (I'm not sure "bearing well" is the correct technical name for the parts I am discussing. That's just my best guess.) The spindle bearing looks like it could easily be removed from above, but the other bearing well(?) looks like it would have to be removed from beneath.

Both of the bearing wells LOOK like the bottoms could be screwed off from beneath without removing them for the table itself. Do you think that would work OK?

Also, what is your recommendation for grease for these bearings? I have seen several types of grease recommended, and am curious if you have a preference.

Thanks again for offering to help. Sorry if I am being a PITA.

Not a PITA at all. It would work better if we could speak and I hate to type on a phone but here goes:
The spindle wells both can be removed by the top by removing three screws. Both you don’t really need to because as you’ve already figured out, you can unscrew the bottom. Once you do you will look into the cap and will probably see something green and nasty looking. It is what’s left of the thrust washer. I believe it was originally a wax like substance. Anyway, both of mine were messed up. I dugout all the old stuff, cleaned the cap real well, then made some new thrust washers that were approximately the same thickness. Installed them in the cap, and added some oil and screwed the cap on. That’s it. You will most likely need two new thrust washers made.
I cut mine out of a piece of white cutting board on my table saw. I’ve seen some trust washers in different sizes at a large ace hardware. You know the ones with all the little boxes with odd screw, washers etc.
Hope that helps. Mine is the most quiet tables I’ve ever had.
 
Not a PITA at all. It would work better if we could speak and I hate to type on a phone but here goes:
The spindle wells both can be removed by the top by removing three screws. Both you don’t really need to because as you’ve already figured out, you can unscrew the bottom. Once you do you will look into the cap and will probably see something green and nasty looking. It is what’s left of the thrust washer. I believe it was originally a wax like substance. Anyway, both of mine were messed up. I dugout all the old stuff, cleaned the cap real well, then made some new thrust washers that were approximately the same thickness. Installed them in the cap, and added some oil and screwed the cap on. That’s it. You will most likely need two new thrust washers made.
I cut mine out of a piece of white cutting board on my table saw. I’ve seen some trust washers in different sizes at a large ace hardware. You know the ones with all the little boxes with odd screw, washers etc.
Hope that helps. Mine is the most quiet tables I’ve ever had.

That does help. In fact it helps a lot. I got antsy and opened up the bottom of the smaller well and saw EXACTLY what you described! There was little or no grease in there, and the thrust washer was in tiny pieces, just like you said. It had started to make a slight rattling noise, so I stopped using it immediately.

I can't tell at all what the original part looked like. Would a regular old rubber or plastic washer do? Or would the hole in the middle of the washer be a problem? Thanks again.
 
Idlers are torquey, durable machines. I have a 50H & a 770H . If you use a discwasher or similar wet-wipe cleaner,prior to playing, these can't be beat. On a silent groove, you may get a bit of rumble, but low-filter can mitigate that. I can live with it. Belt or direct -driven tables will bog down when using this method of cleaning. Reliability plus! But that's just me...:rockon:
 
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That does help. In fact it helps a lot. I got antsy and opened up the bottom of the smaller well and saw EXACTLY what you described! There was little or no grease in there, and the thrust washer was in tiny pieces, just like you said. It had started to make a slight rattling noise, so I stopped using it immediately.

I can't tell at all what the original part looked like. Would a regular old rubber or plastic washer do? Or would the hole in the middle of the washer be a problem? Thanks again.

No can do. The bottom of the spindle has a rounded point at the bottom. That point rests on the heist washer. It’s really a thrust disk. That crud that is in the bottom was the old thrust washer.
I use a cutting board as they are made of PTFE or something like that and it is very slick and makes a good bearing surface for the spindle. I have a strip of it left over. If it looks suitable, I let you have it. You will just have to cut the disks out of it.
 
No can do. The bottom of the spindle has a rounded point at the bottom. That point rests on the heist washer. It’s really a thrust disk. That crud that is in the bottom was the old thrust washer.
I use a cutting board as they are made of PTFE or something like that and it is very slick and makes a good bearing surface for the spindle. I have a strip of it left over. If it looks suitable, I let you have it. You will just have to cut the disks out of it.
I'm having a hard time picturing the cutting board being thin enough to use. Aren't most of them about 1/4 inch thick? The little fragment I removed looked more like a 16th of an inch thick. Does that matter?
Could I just buy a cutting board at a discount store?
Would something like this work? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teflon-Ptf...hash=item213901aa88:m:mdlNCbMhxsxy0058fBYcvNA
Thanks again
 
I had a Bogen/Lenco B60 with a stamped steel platter. I would avoid that one as it has severe rumble, My Dual 1009F and 1015 models were vastly superior. The Lencos with heavy platters are probably a lot better.
 
I am in the middle of renovating two 1959 RCA cartridge (tape) players and I have nothing good say about idler wheels.

Others have mentioned rumble transmitted by an idler. Yes, that is a major issue. But it gets worse. You are relying on the perfect circularity of a piece of rubber to maintain constant speed. That is hard to achieve. Where the rubber touches the motor shaft or the turntable, it deforms a bit. If it does not, then it is probably too hard and may slip.

In belt drive all wheels are of rigid metal. The belt just has to have a smooth inner surface and all goes well. Plus the belt provides tremendous isolation against rumble.

People refer to superior torque when talking about idler drives. First you really need very little torque in a turntable. In a tape player where you need more (fast forward, rewind all require some) the idler shows its worst — see the required torque makes the idler press harder or softer against the motor shaft (and the other turning part), partially helped by a spring. This all becomes quite unstable and only works when the rubber’s coefficient of friction and the pressure from the combination of the spring and motor torque all work optimally... a rare event.

In sum, idlers are fine as a historic curiosity but have little place or use in today’s world. Even HDDs use belt or direct drive.
 
My lenco l 70 with a new Audiosilente idler wheel is the quietest table I have. Sony Ps X6, Technics Sl D202 and Pioneer PL 10. Only gripe I have is my Ortofon MC10 Super cart does not get along with the AC motor. So I stick to MM carts for now.

Using the iphone RPM app, my Lenco holds dead on at 33.39 rpm.

My Dual1229 I had for a short time sounded very nice but had bit of rumble that is non existent in the Lenco
 
Do you care to sell it? I could use the parts. I have a KP-5021 which has many of the same parts.
Larry
 
My vote goes for my Pioneer PL-7E. Restored by me and its as quiet as any belt drive table ive ever heard. Idler wheel rebuilt.
 

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