Most Ford "Chop Rods" Use Chevy Drivetrains--Why?

[quaddriver]

I have a '97 T-Bird with the 3.8 V-6. It has oil in the coolant. I looked into changing head gaskets, but they say you have to machine the block and heads before you change them, or the new ones will leaks. I don't want to do that.

well not sure of the ford spec, but gm only cuts the mating surface to within .003 when in mass production, the gasket covers the rest (marine engines to .001) so any time its apart, cut em to 001, this will not alter the intake geometry.

the 88-95 3.8 fords were the worst years in the head gasket department and the CEO had indicated at some point to warrant the gaskets, then later, the 96-98 v6 engines had intake leaks along the coolant path. they were a basket of monkeys worth of fun

 

[quaddriver]

I have not used these in decades, but back in the day, before 'AP's, we had good old fashioned formulas

HP = T*tpm/5252

If you can plot a curve of the T at 100 rpm intervals, you can derive HP, OR use an electric motor for a brake (in other words a dyno) and convert the wattage (746=1hp) to get the HP curve and then glean the Torque curve

trap speed = 234 * cube root(hp/weight)

234 is the constant and it used to be as low as 224, I had once calculated it to be 235 using the year end 1/4 mile times published in 1994 car and driver, the reason the constant drifts, if that for trap speeds over 100mph, wind resistance is no longer a second order effect and as cars get more powerful, they trap out much higher. but its a start

and empirically for a SI motor (spark ignited) HP = AP * VE * CR * CID /180.6/5252

AP = atmospheric pressure at the test site, 14.7psi is sea level at some degrees and some humidity - so you need some calculation to get there
VE = volumetric efficiency of the motor at that RPM,
CR = static compression ratio
CID = duh
then the 2 normalizing constants.

Astute readers will note that therefore, AP* VE* CR* CID / 180.6 is the formula for torque, of a spark ignited gas motor.

if you plug in a known HP/torque curve, say, like the northstar V8 like I did, you find that the VE at sea level is 110% at HP peak. And this is entirely possible on a NA engine, its called pulse charging and it the sole reason why better heads (ports) and intakes increase HP.

 

[MaxxVolume]

HEMI Thunderbird

Hillborn injected, no less....THAT`S bad ass !

 

[BigElCat]

IMHO...your wrong about the Offenhauser motor. It's main claim to fame was it's ability to accept tremendous amounts of boost. Back in the day they could make over 400hp with an old school supercharger. Modern technology could really take advantage of a motor with no head gasket. Modern pistons, computer controlled ignition, EFI, and new blower/turbo.

It bet it's good for 500 reliable horsepower. And it sounds awesome.

Wrong, BigEL...

The Offy was making 1,000 horsepower with the 60's technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offenhauser

I need an Offy for my T-Bird. No more leaking head gasket.

 

[SiliconTi]

I also believe that Chevy has great crate motors, something Ford has been slow to jump on.

 

[BigElCat]

You are free to do as you choose, but there's no way in Hell I'd use any of that band-aid-in-a-bottle type of crap. It doesn't actually fix the problem and just makes a bigger mess when you go to fix it the right way. Especially if the head gaskets are already that bad.

If the block and heads are still true and not cracked, you don't necessarily have to have them machined just to replace the head gaskets.

I actually have a Kia Rio sitting here with a bad head gasket. The coolant and oil didn't mix, but it is putting compression into the cooling system. I have the car up for sale, but if it doesn't sell without me taking a loss on it, it will get fixed the right way, even if it is a pain. I'd just assume junk it before I'd do a half-assed fix that's not going to hold up and / or do more damage in the long run.

I hear you. I doubt the sealer would even get in around the oil passages, it's the oil getting out.

 

[EngineerNate]

The only Ford/Chevy drag racing story I have is of my dad and his younger brother. My dad had a 65 2-door Impala with a 327 and a four barrel. Nice enough, but my uncle managed to get a 289 Mustang and thought he was hot stuff. My dad got tired of him peacocking around with his new car and challenged him to a race. So they go out to one of the backroads, line up, and count down. The mustang, being lighter, pulled away off the line, but once the four barrel kicked in it was all over for the little stock 289.

Apparently my uncle was a little bit more tolerable after that.

As an aside-which 90s/early 2000s Ford motor was it that liked to spit spark plugs out of the heads?

 

[Tim64]

Back in the day to improve the Corvette a Jaguar rear end was installed, take that Chevrolet lol.

Don't forget how many Ford Rear Ends are underneath Chevy's also.

 

[beat_truck]

As an aside-which 90s/early 2000s Ford motor was it that liked to spit spark plugs out of the heads?

5.4

 

[damacman]

5.4

and 4.6

 

[damacman]

Wrong, BigEL...

The Offy was making 1,000 horsepower with the 60's technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offenhauser

I need an Offy for my T-Bird. No more leaking head gasket.

Guys, we’re talking BIG money here! Come on ...

 

[Gazdatronik]

Maybe not in the heavy pig the Vette was, but it's a riot to wag the tail on an E-type lol.

A '61 Jag and a '61 vette weigh the same.

 

[Gazdatronik]

Oh well, I don't always play by the rules.

Miley Cyrus shouldn't be allowed on anything that produces pictures, video, or audio.

Or smells, if science should progress in that direction.

 

[elcoholic]

The only Ford/Chevy drag racing story I have is of my dad and his younger brother. My dad had a 65 2-door Impala with a 327 and a four barrel. Nice enough, but my uncle managed to get a 289 Mustang and thought he was hot stuff. My dad got tired of him peacocking around with his new car and challenged him to a race. So they go out to one of the backroads, line up, and count down. The mustang, being lighter, pulled away off the line, but once the four barrel kicked in it was all over for the little stock 289.

Apparently my uncle was a little bit more tolerable after that.

As an aside-which 90s/early 2000s Ford motor was it that liked to spit spark plugs out of the heads?

Love the Hypo 289. My boss that built my Windsor had 3 ‘65 Mustangs one of each body style. The f/b was a real G350 “R” backup car never raced. The Paxton blower was freaking amazing and the 289 really loved to rev. It would still pull from 50 in 1st. The crack of the Tri-Ys and 12” glass packs was anything but subtle. Menacing sound. The coupe was his track car with a NA hypo 289 as well. 0-100-0 in a quarter mile with 2 passengers. One day at Willow he was shaving 10ths off of Fulmer’s old ‘stang racecar ‘s laptimes all afternoon. No head to head, but great fun just the same.

 

[EngineerNate]

My great aunt apparently had a 67 fastback with the 390 at one point. My dad said it was pretty great to drive for cars of that era.

 

[Djcoolray]

I'm more if an assembler than a builder. One of my best buds owns an engine building business he started in '86. I've learned all kinds of stuff from him. I've never met anyone that knows more about maximizing efficiencies up top than he. Always fun to see his creations on the dyno.

My shit is all iron. Gen IV 4-bolt block and 3964291 rectangular port heads. He spent a lot if time on the heads (I couldn't afford to upgrade to the Darts) and had a nice big hydraulic roller custom ground for it. It's borderline psycho at 6psi and full on psycho at 8psi.

I'm the electrical guy ... that's my wheelhouse. But I also do all my own wrenching.

Sounds like you have quite a history in racing. Also sounds like you may be a bit older than I - I'm 48. I can't tell you the last time I heard of a guy running a 409 in our scene. Quite a storied engine, that's for sure.

Well....

Your lucky to have the hookup with such a great friend, makes the sport so much more fun. That’s the way it was back in the seventies with so many people as there was so many people building just to support their racing habits. A hot summer night in the seventies at the Fremont Raceway with a tight clan of racers and beautiful girls wearing tight black racing t-shirts.......that was the heyday of muscle car racing. There are all kinds of hidden gems in the racing world, like finding a 409 in an early sixties Chevy or GMC commercial short tanker truck that hauled oil products or a county water truck that could be found in Arizona....just look in the back of all the wrecking yards and you’ll find one. Its just knowing what engine was used in which application. It’s a stronger version of the 409 HP motor with heavy forged rods and balancing an engine with heavier rods with a heavier harmonic balancer seems to come off the line quicker. But the real surprise is the 1973 Lincoln 460 engine and the head design for that year engine is unique for some reason, had a guy that had a machine shop porting heads built a ‘74 Mustang with that engine that blew away a 427 SOHC Mercury Comet in complete disbelief....you could not have anyone even believe that someone blew away a 427 with a boat anchor 460 engine. Also, the SD455 Pontiac engine block that was used for one year is a full fledged high strength 4-bolt main racing block that can be supercharged beyond any other 4-bolt main block....saw one in a ‘70 GTO that dusted off a Hemi Cuba badly. Me, I was the junkyard dog with skills, a 409 in an early seventies Nova at the Raceway.....is the last night with Mary Jane.

 

[gadget73]

Man I'm glad none of you old farts are building a hot rod for me, ugly boring motors for sure.

I won't say the SBC is the best or only drivetrain to use. Its just a relatively known quantity, much like the Mustang II front end and a Ford 9" rear. Anyone can open a catalog and just order one. Thats a handy thing if you may not be well versed in internal engine voodoo or be willing to chase down rare or expensive parts to put something less common together.

For what it's worth, I find them and most of the cars they are in to be fairly boring too. Too much of the same thing, even if the work might be very well done.

 

[EngineerNate]

It'd be fun to put one of those Offenhauser engines into something like a vintage Ford Escort.

 

[Djcoolray]

I’ve got a cheap one for anyone that wants performance on the cheap...

E30 BMW Coupe.....

Order a completely rebuilt short block and rebuilt cylinder head from any auto parts house.....a 1988 325 ES short block and a 1988 325 IS complete cylinder head. Then find a company that builds turbo exhaust manifolds for specific turbos like the Teledyne T-3 that does their own software applications for the ECM update. Gas struts and coils by Blistien and your set to terrorize....don’t forget the Brembo brakes for slowing that rocket down !!!!

This will give Porsche and Jag owners a new perspective.....

 

[EngineerNate]

I’ve got a cheap one for anyone that wants performance on the cheap...

E30 BMW Coupe.....

Order a completely rebuilt short block and cylinder head from any auto parts house.....a 1988 325 ES short block and a 1988 IS complete cylinder head. Then find a company that builds turbo exhaust manifolds that does their own software applications for the ECM update. Gas struts and coils by Blistien and your set to terrorize....

If you don't care about looks, E36s have a better rear suspension design and are similarly cheap to purchase. Parts aren't too bad price wise if you're capable of doing your own work. They're money pits if you have to pay someone to do the work.