Metalownz
Audiophile? Getting there
Thank you!VERY Nice!
Thank you!VERY Nice!
That turntable is awesome!I have owned a Dual 12229Q, Dual 1019, Elac Miracord 50H, Rek O Kut Rondine Jr L-34 (look at my avatar pic and click on view picture for a better pic), several lower ended Garrard changer types, Rek O Kut B-12H (being restored now), and also have a Maggie console that has the idler table in it (which also will be getting a full restoration). All of them had one thing in common-better and quicker bass response to me than a belt drive.
Now prior to them being restored as best as I could myself, there was audible rumble, afterwards-none that I could hear. I am nowhere near a professional either. I also didn't hook anything up to any equipment to test,but used my ears as well as a few other people's ears. I've noticed redoing the idler wheel, and redoing the motors and replacing rubber grommets were the key.
I have also been interested in trying out a Lenco, but for the price vs what needs to be put into them, it hasn't made financial sense for me to do it at this point.
You'll also notice, outside of Dual, Elac, and a few others, all of them need to be heavily modified in order to get superior sound quality against the stock ones (belt,idler,and dd tables included) with arms, removing parts, adding parts etc. So if you're not looking to drop much money,I'd go with a stock Dual or Elac, or maybe even a Garrard. My ROK L-34 had a Grado wooden arm, and the ROK B-12H has the micropoise arm, and they came with them that way. The L-34 when finished along with my 1019 when finished were super quiet and could hang with my fully modded AR-XA (pictured in the middle of my avatar), as well as my Ariston RD-11 Superior (which was also fully modded,to the left), but you could hear they slightly lacked in fine detail due to the stock set up.But the differences in $500-$700+ in mods should have made one.
I also use my belt drives for slightly more laid back music and the idlers for rock,dance types of music. I have come to like the sound of the Dual 1019,ROK L-34 over the others with the ROK being the nicest of them. I can't really say much about the B-12H until it's finished it's about 80% of the way there though.
Here's a few pictures of the B-12H, many have turned their noses up to the color I redid the plinth in, but the original color was very badly done, so until I decide on another plinth, or color,or veneer, I chose the Colonial Red high gloss. I really like the color on it, and as you can tell in my avatar, like tables a little out of the ordinary when it comes to their plinths. Photo quality isn't that great, but you get the picture.
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JFRACE,I have owned a Dual 12229Q, Dual 1019, Elac Miracord 50H, Rek O Kut Rondine Jr L-34 (look at my avatar pic and click on view picture for a better pic), several lower ended Garrard changer types, Rek O Kut B-12H (being restored now), and also have a Maggie console that has the idler table in it (which also will be getting a full restoration). All of them had one thing in common-better and quicker bass response to me than a belt drive.
Now prior to them being restored as best as I could myself, there was audible rumble, afterwards-none that I could hear. I am nowhere near a professional either. I also didn't hook anything up to any equipment to test,but used my ears as well as a few other people's ears. I've noticed redoing the idler wheel, and redoing the motors and replacing rubber grommets were the key.
I have also been interested in trying out a Lenco, but for the price vs what needs to be put into them, it hasn't made financial sense for me to do it at this point.
You'll also notice, outside of Dual, Elac, and a few others, all of them need to be heavily modified in order to get superior sound quality against the stock ones (belt,idler,and dd tables included) with arms, removing parts, adding parts etc. So if you're not looking to drop much money,I'd go with a stock Dual or Elac, or maybe even a Garrard. My ROK L-34 had a Grado wooden arm, and the ROK B-12H has the micropoise arm, and they came with them that way. The L-34 when finished along with my 1019 when finished were super quiet and could hang with my fully modded AR-XA (pictured in the middle of my avatar), as well as my Ariston RD-11 Superior (which was also fully modded,to the left), but you could hear they slightly lacked in fine detail due to the stock set up.But the differences in $500-$700+ in mods should have made one.
I also use my belt drives for slightly more laid back music and the idlers for rock,dance types of music. I have come to like the sound of the Dual 1019,ROK L-34 over the others with the ROK being the nicest of them. I can't really say much about the B-12H until it's finished it's about 80% of the way there though.
Here's a few pictures of the B-12H, many have turned their noses up to the color I redid the plinth in, but the original color was very badly done, so until I decide on another plinth, or color,or veneer, I chose the Colonial Red high gloss. I really like the color on it, and as you can tell in my avatar, like tables a little out of the ordinary when it comes to their plinths. Photo quality isn't that great, but you get the picture.
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JFRACE,
I notice in your last picture of the red plinth, there is a blue plinth in the background. Could you tell me how to get that deep blue and still have the wood grain show through so well? I am going to build a heavy plinth for my Garrard Lab 80 mkI this summer and love how that blue works on yours.
Dave
Thanks, Jim. I can do that kind of work, but never thought of using ink before.The plinth was done by Larry Spence on here, it's a blue and black ink, so the tiger maple's wood still shows through. He then gave it a guitar finish. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that type of work.
Jim
I'll look that up, too.Use oil based wood glaze (not the water based crap). It's for that - and it's easy. 3 - 5 layers would leave the grain visible. After that it gets too opaque.
I have a Braun PS600, great TT if you can find one in good condition. Based on Miracord mechanism, with electronic speed control. see my avatar pic. I think is keeps up with the big boys very well. But this isn't a table to hot rod. It is what it is, It sees sunday driver use, and is my stacker. I love it. But my daily driver is an 80' AR.
Good luck in your search. This is a great place for info.
Cheers, Chris
I am in the middle of renovating two 1959 RCA cartridge (tape) players and I have nothing good say about idler wheels.
Others have mentioned rumble transmitted by an idler. Yes, that is a major issue. But it gets worse. You are relying on the perfect circularity of a piece of rubber to maintain constant speed. That is hard to achieve. Where the rubber touches the motor shaft or the turntable, it deforms a bit. If it does not, then it is probably too hard and may slip.
In belt drive all wheels are of rigid metal. The belt just has to have a smooth inner surface and all goes well. Plus the belt provides tremendous isolation against rumble.
People refer to superior torque when talking about idler drives. First you really need very little torque in a turntable. In a tape player where you need more (fast forward, rewind all require some) the idler shows its worst — see the required torque makes the idler press harder or softer against the motor shaft (and the other turning part), partially helped by a spring. This all becomes quite unstable and only works when the rubber’s coefficient of friction and the pressure from the combination of the spring and motor torque all work optimally... a rare event.
In sum, idlers are fine as a historic curiosity but have little place or use in today’s world. Even HDDs use belt or direct drive.
I use a strobe disc and LED lamp to check table speed. My Garrard Lab 80 runs spot on and doesn't waver. My Garrard SL 95b is just a tad fast, but holds steady there. Well within tolerance for accuracy standards. My ROK Rondine B12 runs a bit slow on a cold start, but after around 10-15 minutes is dead on with no wavering. The various Dual idler drives I've had run a bit slow on cold start, but warm up fast and stay there. The belt drives I've had: The Thornes TD160 ran a bit fast, but probably withing standards. It had no wavering. My AR-XA was dead on. My DD Denon DP75 is dead on from the git-go and stays there. If speed is what one judges a turntable on, The Denon tromps all of mine except the AR-XA and Garrard Lab 80. My guess is that absolute speed is not what makes a turntable sound great. My AR-XA didn't do it for me at all. Something else on it caused me to sell it, even though speed was right on and rumble couldn't be heard. The Thorens sounded good and quiet, but was unusable on my suspended floor. The Denon and ROK Rondine B12 ignored floor bounce. Ultimately I chose the ROK over the Denon. It was just more involving in spite of the Denon having perfect speed (oh yeah, the Denon was mounted in an after-market 2 part plinth with layered floating sub-chassis and hardwood base). There is no way I could describe what I heard that made me always come back to idlers (went back to a Dual 1019 after first after the Denon, Thorens and AR). Every time I went back to any of my idlers, after spending a few months with each of the DD and BD tables, I just breathed a sigh, "Oh yeah! This is it!"
Not true properly serviced idler are silent headphones or otherwise.As a class, idler-wheel turntables have rumble characteristics inferior to those of belt-drive and direct-drive turntables. This could be an issue if your speakers or headphones have a lot of low-end reach.
Not true properly serviced idler are silent headphones or otherwise.
Chris
+1 - the inferior statement is not true regarding a sorted idler wheel table and in my estimation comes from a lack of experience with said tables.