Seeking sage advise on classic cars

My preference is oem pre-war vintage, but understand the mod/rod rationale.
Re investment. True recognised low production/ survival classic cars are more likely to retain appreciable value than higher production cars or "oddball" cars of low recognition/demand.
Rodded/ mod'ed cars are largely a matter of taste, high grade mod/rod and popular market restorations may be a labor of love investment with low return after the enjoyment phase.
Later "living-the-dream" luxury class cars can be real bargains for purchase but costly white elephants to restore and maintain.
The exception presently is oem mid/late 20th Century muscle cars, clean unmoded survivors are somewhat rare and seemingly highly desirable.
 
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A friend of a friend was at the Hot August Nights auction this past summer with the intent of buying a '69 Z28 Camaro and taking it to one of the car builders to Pro Mod it with all the bells and whistles. They told him to plan on spending around $200,000 at their shop for a turnkey job. I'll also add that money wasn't an issue for him.

One of the local Chevrolet dealers had a display there, with one a top of the line high horsepower Camaro there (ZL1, if that's what it is). After some head scratching, he plopped down the 60 or so thousand dollars and trailered the new Camaro home. All new, power everything, AC, more horsepower than he could ever use, a warranty, and around $140,000.00 still in his bank account.
 
If you have to hire someone to do the work, then I'd say that isn't a good idea. I want a '62 Plymouth Fury, myself, but since I'm physically unable to do the work then I'd pretty much have to hit the lottery to consider even buying a fully restored model because it is sure to require more repair and maintenance as time progresses.
 
Donny,

A bit late to this game, but here's my two cents - from someone who's been working on a project for 7 years and is likely to have a few more years and never reap one dollar over what I've invested, if I ever get that much back.

I agree with many on here. Don't ever buy an old car as an investment. That's a foolish way to go as the market fluctuates and what is trendy now may not be trendy 10 years from now.

Do you want to learn how to do much of it yourself? If the answer is no, then don't buy that car or any car that isn't mostly done and driving. Anything 40+ years old will have issues. Rubber dries out, grease dries out, the plastic wiring gets brittle and cracks, metal fatigues, components don't work right - gee, I wonder if I'm talking about audio equipment or old cars? I cannot stress how frustrating chasing vacuum leaks and electrical issues can be in a 50+ year old car. And when you get one problem solved, it usually triggers another problem.

If the answer is yes, then get yourself an original shop manual and learn. The first thing I bought was a factory chassis service manual. I call it the "Bible," if that helps. I've learned so much wrenching on mine that I feel confident undertaking another project in the future, if I ever sell it. But then again, I'm also a weekend mechanic who does much of his own work on the daily drivers and I like doing this stuff.

You'll (almost always) never build a car for the price you can buy a finished (or nearly) finished one. The cost of building a car is way more than resale in 90 percent of the cases - just watch the auctions over the weekends (Meecum, etc.) Some of those cars are going from the mid-teens to the mid-twenties and they're gorgeous. Paint alone can run $10,000 for a mediocre to decent job. Bodywork is expensive. Recovering seats are expensive. An engine rebuild can run $3,000 if you're lucky. (Mine was $2,900 for a long-block).

Unless you're rebuilding a 1912 Hupmobile (and even then), parts are available for pretty much anything. However, patience will be your next lesson. If you have none, then undertaking an old car that is not a Mustang, Chevelle or Challenger is not for you. It took me over one year to find a passenger side window. Three years to find good grill inserts. Depending on what you car choose to do, you will spend hours searching the interweb, junk yards and praying to the car gods to find any parts you need.

Find common lost souls. No matter what car you choose, you'll find others out there who have the same thing. This can be very important in the restoration game - especially when parts are hard to find and/or you need guidance or just want to vent. It's been invaluable to me over the years to learn and share info and parts with others who have my car.

There's a lot more to know, but this post is already getting long. In short, buy a project because you want one, not as an investment. Heck, I don't care if you don't love the car, I didn't when I first found mine but I felt sorry for it and didn't want to see if go to the demo derby. Now, I love the beast. Learn to wrench, or at least be willing to. It will save you tons of money in the long run, even if the car is mostly done when you buy it. Don't expect a big payday at the end, even if you do find that '70 Cuda in granny's barn. Buy it as a hobby, a learning experience, whatever, but not as a retirement account.

Finally, enjoy it! Old cars are not worth the trouble and expense, and don't ever let anyone tell you they are. However, they are rewarding. I've literally brought my car back from the dead (non-running and a mess when I got it) and from the fate of the demo derby to a car I've taken to four shows this summer (though it's still a work in progress). It's totally a Dr. Frankenstein feeling. And when I consider that I've done everything (mechanically) to this car myself except for the rebuilt long block - that's pretty freakin' cool in my book.

BTW, it's a 1969 Oldsmobile Toronado.

Toro Show.jpg

Toro engine bay.jpg
 
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I've been through the powertrain twice on this vehicle since I purchased it. But, and I was lucky to find an almost complete car, all the parts are original except for the wear stuff such as brake shoes/pad, hoses, belts and tires. I still have the original wheels, exhaust manifolds, intake manifold and carb tucked away in the shop.

1971NovaSS.jpg


It's interesting that you like the '49 Plymouth coupe. My very first car was a 1950 DeSoto Deluxe sedan.
 
I've been through the powertrain twice on this vehicle since I purchased it. But, and I was lucky to find an almost complete car, all the parts are original except for the wear stuff such as brake shoes/pad, hoses, belts and tires. I still have the original wheels, exhaust manifolds, intake manifold and carb tucked away in the shop.

1971NovaSS.jpg


It's interesting that you like the '49 Plymouth coupe. My very first car was a 1950 DeSoto Deluxe sedan.
Under the hood shot, please!:thumbsup:
 
I have always wanted a classic from the 50's-early 70's. I have had a few project cars when I was a teenager and I now know to be carefull about what I buy!
I found a 1949 plymouth p19 2 door. The best part about the car is,it is rust free. It is being sold because of a botched paint job. Body is straight,most of the trim is there but not on the car. I believe the drive train is good other than brakes. Interior is shot. Price $4000 maybe less...
I'm confident I can do the paint and the brakes. Past that I may have to hire it out.
Would I be better off to save my money for a few more years and get something more finished in a few years at risk of the market going up? I would prob be looking at the $8000 range maybe more. The major con is buying from a stranger. Rust is bad in my area.

I like original cars the best. They will cost the least to own in the long run with a lot less hassle and grief.

Car like this you can buy, own and enjoy - and you can actually make a profit on it if kept as nice as it is now and have something you can be proud of from day one. Original paint, chrome and interior with almost every option box checked and under 30,000 on the clock - for relative chump change.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Cadil...AOSw4c5b32l6:rk:4:pf:1&vxp=mtr&frcectupt=true

Check out what this seller wants for one. He just bought it at Mecum for $14,300. The one above is a no-brainer.

This is the sagest advice you are going to get.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Cadil...54545d72:g:GDgAAOSwuNNb4guR:rk:9:pf:0&vxp=mtr
 
keep in mind that convertibles go for about twice that of a closed car
and woody's are very expensive.

1949-plymouth-2.jpg


The model A ford is the most easily restored car .
 
As others have said though, buy something that speaks to you, not just something that you think will make money. Being rare doesn't mean its going to be worth money either. I have little expectation that my diesel Lincoln Continental is ever going to be my retirement fund. Its just a strange footnote in automotive history.

If I were buying a Caddy, it would be mid-late 60s Coupe DeVille, one of those awesome ones with the stacked round headlamps. I think that was the peak of style for them.
 
As others have said though, buy something that speaks to you, not just something that you think will make money. Being rare doesn't mean its going to be worth money either. I have little expectation that my diesel Lincoln Continental is ever going to be my retirement fund. Its just a strange footnote in automotive history.

If I were buying a Caddy, it would be mid-late 60s Coupe DeVille, one of those awesome ones with the stacked round headlamps. I think that was the peak of style for them.

How about a 1969 Caddy , white convertible with red leather interior. couldn't find a pic
with red interior, ;-)

1_1680.jpg
 
keep in mind that convertibles go for about twice that of a closed car
and woody's are very expensive.

1949-plymouth-2.jpg


The model 'A' Ford is the most easily restored car .
Or a model 'T' Ford, tho the model 'A' is more familiar and 'road-able'.
The model 'T' is a 1908 design minimalist yet 'real' automobile, points of interest include primitive but effective design engineering, good metallurgy, and 19 years of basically unchanged mechanical design (periodically restyled) production with plenty of surviving examples and parts availability.
The 1928 model 'A' that replaced it was more conventional and contemporary that its over-aged obsolesced precessor. Cool "Untouchables" styling.
A stock Model 'A' is a secondary surface road car, comfortable at ca 45-50 mph with pre-anticipated stopping power from 4 wheel mechanical brakes.
 
Or a model 'T' Ford, tho the model 'A' is more familiar and 'road-able'.
The model 'T' is a 1908 minimalist yet 'real' automobile, points of interest include primitive but effective design engineering, good metallurgy, and 19 years of basically unchanged design (periodically restyled) production with plenty of surviving examples and parts availability.
The 1928 model 'A' that replaced it was more conventional and contemporary that its over-aged obsolesced precessor. Cool "Untouchables" styling.
A stock Model 'A' is a secondary surface road car, comfortable at ca 45-50 mph with pre-anticipated stopping power from 4 wheel mechanical brakes.


i had a 1930 model A , it was a fun car..
 
Nice cars HiFi in wyo and yamaki!
I am a mechanic but not on cars. Mostly ATV's. I can do big projects,I practically re-built my house...Never again!
I will wait and buy a driver. You guys have brought up some good points.
 
A stock Model 'A' is a secondary surface road car, comfortable at ca 45-50 mph with pre-anticipated stopping power from 4 wheel mechanical brakes.

You touch upon a very important point. Even if you think you're just going to take your classic out for a leisurely drive, in modern traffic there's always going to be someone who cuts you off and then jams on his brakes. Modern cars accelerate and brake vastly faster than old cars.

It's nerve-wracking at best, and one of several reasons I no longer drive old cars...as much as I like them. 99% of people nowadays don't know a thing about classic cars and moreover don't care a whit about them. You're just another obstacle between them and where they want to be.
 
I`ve been down that road a few times also (probably TOO many for my own good), and have to agree with all the good advice you`ve been given. Currently partnered with an old buddy, we`ve had a `41 Plymouth coupe for about 17 years now, bought it as a fun project, and something to putz around with. It`s been all of that. It`s been pretty low-budget, I think it`s safe to say that we`ve got far more hours than dollars into the car. Building cars (of any stripe) is always a good learning experience, just do it for the fun of it, you only have to impress yourself !

upload_2018-11-8_3-50-10.png
 
Donny,

A bit late to this game, but here's my two cents - from someone who's been working on a project for 7 years and is likely to have a few more years and never reap one dollar over what I've invested, if I ever get that much back.

I agree with many on here. Don't ever buy an old car as an investment. That's a foolish way to go as the market fluctuates and what is trendy now may not be trendy 10 years from now.

Do you want to learn how to do much of it yourself? If the answer is no, then don't buy that car or any car that isn't mostly done and driving. Anything 40+ years old will have issues. Rubber dries out, grease dries out, the plastic wiring gets brittle and cracks, metal fatigues, components don't work right - gee, I wonder if I'm talking about audio equipment or old cars? I cannot stress how frustrating chasing vacuum leaks and electrical issues can be in a 50+ year old car. And when you get one problem solved, it usually triggers another problem.

If the answer is yes, then get yourself an original shop manual and learn. The first thing I bought was a factory chassis service manual. I call it the "Bible," if that helps. I've learned so much wrenching on mine that I feel confident undertaking another project in the future, if I ever sell it. But then again, I'm also a weekend mechanic who does much of his own work on the daily drivers and I like doing this stuff.

You'll (almost always) never build a car for the price you can buy a finished (or nearly) finished one. The cost of building a car is way more than resale in 90 percent of the cases - just watch the auctions over the weekends (Meecum, etc.) Some of those cars are going from the mid-teens to the mid-twenties and they're gorgeous. Paint alone can run $10,000 for a mediocre to decent job. Bodywork is expensive. Recovering seats are expensive. An engine rebuild can run $3,000 if you're lucky. (Mine was $2,900 for a long-block).

Unless you're rebuilding a 1912 Hupmobile (and even then), parts are available for pretty much anything. However, patience will be your next lesson. If you have none, then undertaking an old car that is not a Mustang, Chevelle or Challenger is not for you. It took me over one year to find a passenger side window. Three years to find good grill inserts. Depending on what you car choose to do, you will spend hours searching the interweb, junk yards and praying to the car gods to find any parts you need.

Find common lost souls. No matter what car you choose, you'll find others out there who have the same thing. This can be very important in the restoration game - especially when parts are hard to find and/or you need guidance or just want to vent. It's been invaluable to me over the years to learn and share info and parts with others who have my car.

There's a lot more to know, but this post is already getting long. In short, buy a project because you want one, not as an investment. Heck, I don't care if you don't love the car, I didn't when I first found mine but I felt sorry for it and didn't want to see if go to the demo derby. Now, I love the beast. Learn to wrench, or at least be willing to. It will save you tons of money in the long run, even if the car is mostly done when you buy it. Don't expect a big payday at the end, even if you do find that '70 Cuda in granny's barn. Buy it as a hobby, a learning experience, whatever, but not as a retirement account.

Finally, enjoy it! Old cars are not worth the trouble and expense, and don't ever let anyone tell you they are. However, they are rewarding. I've literally brought my car back from the dead (non-running and a mess when I got it) and from the fate of the demo derby to a car I've taken to four shows this summer (though it's still a work in progress). It's totally a Dr. Frankenstein feeling. And when I consider that I've done everything (mechanically) to this car myself except for the rebuilt long block - that's pretty freakin' cool in my book.

BTW, it's a 1969 Oldsmobile Toronado.

View attachment 1325164

View attachment 1325165


My father had a '69 Toronado that he bought new. It was a really cool car. Would SMOKE the front tires! It started having overheating issues that he just couldn't figure out. I could have bought it from him for $ 1,200 in 1975. But, I was just a kid with no money. BTW, the overheating was a layer of cat hair that got between the A/C condenser and the radiator that you couldn't see.
 
Modern cars accelerate and brake vastly faster than old cars.

By the 60s, cars with disc front brakes stop decently, and many things have brake upgrades available. I'm a big fan of stopping power. I upgraded the brakes on my Towncar and have never regretted it. The Continental and the Mark VII both had good 4 wheel disc from the factory.
 
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