Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

Status
Not open for further replies.
correction for a previous post--if i shake my 1/2 empty bottle of solution it DOES foam up. I had mis-remembered what happens when I shake it. apologies.
 
Looking at EngineerNate's PDFs; if I use the 91% ISO to 99%, should I lower the amount of ISO due to the higher concentration?
 
Interesting test, but this conclusion goes against scientific evidence. As any compatibility chart will show (e.g.https://www.calpaclab.com/pvc-polyvinyl-chloride-chemical-compatibility-chart/), many of those solvents (e.g. acetone) have severe effects on PVC-based polymers. Furthermore, extraction of chemicals within PVC-based products have been measured (using MS-HPLC, for example) with even mild solvents like alcohol at concentrations over 60%. So while the record may appear and play OK, it certainly is different than the original composition. Could be fine for common or short-term records, but the idea behind this thread was for long-term preservation of collectables. Records are chemically tough, but like all plastics, they do have a useful life span. This life may be over 100 years, and I wouldn't want to shorten it doing things that might not be fatal, but are scientifically known to be harmful. Same reason I don't smoke, though I don't judge those that do.




You are good with the Hepastat (your doing a 1:1000 dilution resulting in a little over 0.02% quat, which is within the suggested range). I can't say on the iso as you don't say what stock % you are starting with. Likewise,I don't know what conc. Tergitol is in that product. Let us know how it works out!


This has been addressed many times in this thread, but in summary:
1.Photoflo contains a non-ionic detergent (5-10%), but is mostly propylene glycol (25-30%). The glycol is a problem. Ilfotol is better, as it only contains the non-ionic detergent (they don't specify, but it is an alcohol ethoxylate, exactly like Triton). Problem is it is only 1-5% detergent so you are paying dearly compared to pure Triton.
2. Small amount of foam is a good thing. You can reduce the concentration of the detergent if it becomes bothersome. That said, there is no excuse for not rinsing a record after deep cleaning with any detergent. It is an important step as folks here have attested. Also why aren't you using a quat in the mix? I know Rushton uses them as I gave him the recipe. Finally, if drying is an issue, you might want to invest in a vacuum RCM. This will allow a quick rinse step after the US and greatly facilitate drying...win-win!
Point is the tiny amount of time we use alcohol to clean a record it is not significant and there is no evidence I have seen that sell this idea to me. Also how long do you guys want the record to last? I have been cleaning mine with isopropyl alcohol for decades, I am 47 now and hope to be able to still hear well enough to enjoy them the rest of my life, but dont really care what happens to them after that. My test demonstrated one thing that is they wont be in contact with alcohol or any solvent long enough to do any audible damage in my life time and longer so irrelevant Some may claim they can measure so tiny leaching but honestly you are more likely to damage you record by replay than washing it.
Chris
 
Point is the tiny amount of time we use alcohol to clean a record it is not significant and there is no evidence I have seen that sell this idea to me. Also how long do you guys want the record to last? I have been cleaning mine with isopropyl alcohol for decades, I am 47 now and hope to be able to still hear well enough to enjoy them the rest of my life, but dont really care what happens to them after that. My test demonstrated one thing that is they wont be in contact with alcohol or any solvent long enough to do any audible damage in my life time and longer so irrelevant Some may claim they can measure so tiny leaching but honestly you are more likely to damage you record by replay than washing it.
Chris
Moderation Note:

Heads up on your input to this thread. The title of this thread is unfortunate. There are many ways that folks have been using for years. If what you do and use works for you, that is quite acceptable, but it is not the topic or intent of this thread.

This thread is specifically intended to squeeze the last drop of goodness from our cleaning processes. There is "good enough" and there is "not good at all." This thread is shooting at the getting as close to perfect as we can get. If you want to talk about general record cleaning, there are plenty of threads on the subject here on AK. If you want to participate in the "as good as you can get get with modern science," this is a thread to enjoy.

Concepts for various chemicals and processes have been discussed previously in this thread. Having addressed those, we are now into serious refinement and understanding. Please honor the intent of this thread, pick another thread to enjoy, or feel free to start your own.

Rich P
 
Moderation Note:

Heads up on your input to this thread. The title of this thread is unfortunate. There are many ways that folks have been using for years. If what you do and use works for you, that is quite acceptable, but it is not the topic or intent of this thread.

This thread is specifically intended to squeeze the last drop of goodness from our cleaning processes. There is "good enough" and there is "not good at all." This thread is shooting at the getting as close to perfect as we can get. If you want to talk about general record cleaning, there are plenty of threads on the subject here on AK. If you want to participate in the "as good as you can get get with modern science," this is a thread to enjoy.

Concepts for various chemicals and processes have been discussed previously in this thread. Having addressed those, we are now into serious refinement and understanding. Please honor the intent of this thread, pick another thread to enjoy, or feel free to start your own.

Rich P
I had no intention of disrupting the thread or moving it off topic, actually it is a topic I am interested in as my albums are into the thousands. I conducted my solvent tests on VE for this reason as there is a lot of internet psudo science on the subject. My reason for posting my comments here on this thread were that the folks here are making a recipe for a cleaning solution which is great. My issue is we are steering the recipe in a particular direction with false facts. I am the dummy in the family, buy I have a masters degree. My partner has a Phd and she has worked many years post Doc and she is seriously well publish in a number of subjects including polymers. Personally one of my businesses steered my the way of plastics. I developed and designed a bipod for FTR shooting and for it to make weight restrictions with increasingly heavy rifles I needed the top and feet and ankles to be made of composites and plastics so I went into business with an expert in plastic moulding. This alcohol and leaching from the plastic question I put to my new business partner. His response was any plasticiser found in alcohol after a contact with a record would almost for sure come from plasticiser dissolved in the release agents. He also said any stripped from the vinyl would be unlikely and if they were it would be totally insignificant amounts. My partner said similar long ago but it was interesting talking to someone in the industry.
My 2c re the recipe is what damage can be done to the record or the stylus if the record is not cleaned properly? Used records smoking residue is terrible to remove how can this be removed without alcohol?
I did my own experiments a number of years back and I had some success with photographic wetting agent but nothing removed stubborn grime like alcohol could. I now have my own decent microscope so thinking to do tests again and will try the results of this thread too. My idea is to get a really dirty charity shop record cut it up into strips and examine each strip under the microscope. Then clean each strip with test solution and recheck under microscope to see how much grime has been removed. Plasticisers aside how clean the test samples are after this test will be interesting.
Chris
 
For records, the effect of solvents on plasticizer is less than leaching of other additives. In modern LPs, the PVC is in a copolymer with PVA, which has the plasticizing effect, and is difficult to extract. The included stabilizers, conditioners, and lubricants are indeed solvent extractable (they can also be extracted with detergent which is why we need to be careful). One can measure increased frictional resistance, and the resulting increased noise, after treating a record with solvent (experiments at RCA and Shure for examples). I would be interested in more scientific measurements on your treatments with stylus friction and dynamic range in mind as I think it is important before proclaiming that it is OK to treat records with solvents. Also, are any of the solvents beneficial to cleaning...do they bring anything to the table by doing something the detergents do not? I previously summarized some of the common compounds in resin formulas in post #1548. Perhaps your partner could contribute to this list. There are others additives that are proprietary, including specialized plasticizers, depending on the manufacturer. All of these additives are all there for a reason, and we need to be mindful of retaining them for both record performance and long term stability. That's all I was getting at. People sometimes misinterpret this to mean we are saying that alcohol melts records. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Last edited:
For records, the effect of solvents on plasticizer is less than leaching of other additives. In modern LPs, the PVC is in a copolymer with PVA, which has the plasticizing effect, and is difficult to extract. The included stabilizers, conditioners, and lubricants are indeed solvent extractable (they can also be extracted with detergent which is why we need to be careful). One can measure increased frictional resistance, and the resulting increased noise, after treating a record with solvent (experiments at RCA and Shure for examples). I would be interested in more scientific measurements on your treatments with stylus friction and dynamic range in mind as I think it is important before proclaiming that it is OK to treat records with solvents. Also, are any of the solvents beneficial to cleaning...do they bring anything to the table by doing something the detergents do not? I previously summarized some of the common compounds in resin formulas in post #1548. Perhaps your partner could contribute to this list. There are others additives that are proprietary, including specialized plasticizers, depending on the manufacturer. All of these additives are all there for a reason, and we need to be mindful of retaining them for both record performance and long term stability. That's all I was getting at. People sometimes misinterpret this to mean we are saying that alcohol melts records. Nothing could be further from the truth.
So we agree that plasticisers are safe, but the worry is lubricants and conditioners which will be basically removed with detergents anyway. There is nothing really that is in the plastic that is going to be removed with alcohol, yes there may be something on the surface that may or may not be beneficial that could be removed but most normal cleaning will remove it anyway. The question of what solvents like alcohol bring to the table is simple, and that is it is almost impossible to remove many types of grime without it. Buy a record used which has lived in a smokers house and alcohol is the only thing that will get it clean.
Chris
 
Hello all,
Been doing my best to digest the info here. This is what I had been using prior to reading this thread:
Mix of record cleaning solution:
3/4 gallon distilled water
1/4 gallon alcohol
19ml of wetting agent (ILFOTOL)

What I do:
Wet the record thoroughly with cleaning solution and let it set for maybe 15-20 seconds.
Vacuum off with Squeaky Clean RCM
Thoroughly wet with distilled water
Vacuum off

Questions:
Is my solution too harsh with too much alcohol?
I have quite a lot of ILFOTOL still. Can someone recommend me a solution more in line with what is recommended in this thread if possible? Or should I ditch the ILFOTOL and just use the recommended solutions here?

Appreciate any insight.
Thanks!
 
So I've made my first bit of solution and I have some undissolved bits at the bottom of my mix. I'm not sure if it's the EDTA or not? This is after it sat overnight cause I heard the Triton can take a while to integrate. Any tips?

IMG_20181102_092055.jpg
 
I had some precipitate in my concentrate and ended up throwing it out. I tried to heat it up to see if it would go into solution but it didn't. I made 16oz of the cleaning solution, from that concentrate, that is clear and I'm still using it. I'll eventually make some more concentrate.
 
Hi I posted this back in January. No one commented on it, Can any of the chemical experts like @phantomrebel weigh in on this product?

How about this product I use at my restaurant for getting rid of grease and other tough stains, Grease Gobbler ( http://www.emulso.com/product/grease-gobbler/ ).

I recently used it in its ratio of 50/50 we mix for work to clean a stubborn stylus that had crud 10 cleanings with Stylast could not remove. One application of the 50/50 Grease gobbler
removed it 100% !!! I have tried a mix of that with some Distilled water and De natured alcohol and about 10% Grease gobbler for a really dirty record. It worked well but I have no way of telling if it had any adverse affects to the record. It worked better than some record doctor cleaner I have been using.

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-tech.pdf

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-safety.pdf

But As a stylus cleaner I am sticking with it when I find a used cartridge/stylus with massive gunk on it.



Athanasios


Thanks guys

Athanasios
 
Last edited:
@phantomrebel

How about this product I use at my restaurant for getting rid of grease and other tough stains, Grease Gobbler ( http://www.emulso.com/product/grease-gobbler/ ).

I recently used it in its ratio of 50/50 we mix for work to clean a stubborn stylus that had crud 10 cleanings with Stylast could not remove. One application of the 50/50 Grease gobbler
removed it 100% !!! I have tried a mix of that with some Distilled water and De natured alcohol and about 10% Grease gobbler for a really dirty record. It worked well but I have no way of telling if it had any adverse affects to the record. It worked better than some record doctor cleaner I have been using.

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-tech.pdf

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-safety.pdf

But As a stylus cleaner I am sticking with it when I find a used cartridge/stylus with massive gunk on it.



Athanasios
 
Last edited:
So, what I would like to ask is: is there a "conditioner" for LP's that would both remove grime, dust, surface grease while preserving the pvc/vinyl components? I'm a lazy and cheap teacher who likes to experiment with this stuff. I've cleaned a couple dozen really beat up Goodwill specials at this point, detailed on the other vinyl cleaning thread, and with 90+ pages here, I'm wondering if my question has been asked? I'm good on the Triton 100 and pure Isopropyl Alcohol, distilled water, and paint pad "gentle" scrub (used something similar and it worked great.)... and now I've gotten thru 40 pages here, so I gave this thread the College Try, but the Iron Bowl came on and, well... The beers came out of the fridge and one thing has lead to another... I'm interested to know from a chemist's POV, is there anything that both cleans AND conditions at the same time so the vinyl won't be compromised?
 
Nashou: Sorry, been moving the beach house, then the holidays, and haven't had much time to read this thread. I would not use that Grease Gobbler on my records. Primarily because it is a caustic mix of salts, pyrophosphate and potassium hydroxide. The pH is up there around 13, way too basic. These mixes are fantastic at cleaning glassware but anything containing a strong oxyanion I would never recommended for records. If it works for you, I understand, I just think it would strip endogenous additives like lubricants off the record surface and potentially make it susceptible to static so I would personally avoid it.
drjohnny: a neutral quat- based cleaner would do what you describe. This is what we have come up with in this thread. Some use an all-in-one shampoo/conditioner, but these generally contain lots of additional ingredients we might not want on our records so we are making our own pure mixes. So a good quat surfactant would do the trick (both clean and condition) if you can source it, and something like Hepastat has been recommended because it contains a good mix of them without too much other stuff at the dilutions used.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom