Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[jackgiff]

Some clarification needed here.

I am using the 3-18-08 crossover with JBL 2225h (97db) I believe. should I try the other crossover? It sounds great as is, what changes would I notice? The high freq section is plenty hot enough for the 2225H!
should I keep the 3-18-08 woofer circuit (1200 hz) or change out for the (900 hz) woofer circuit along with the 3-14-08 high freq circuit?

Thanks,
Russellc

Russellc, thanks for pointing that out.

The crossover dated 3-14-08 is specific for the LE14A woofers I was using at that time. It had a large hump just at the upper end of it's range, so the low pass was dropped to 900 Hz to alleviate that. Since the Altec and Trusonic woofers didn't have that hump, the 1200 HZ low pass is fine. And it even works OK for the LE14A's, but 900 was marginally better.

Since you have enough top end, what you are using is fine. And with any other woofer than LE14A's, 1200 HZ is preferable

If using a woofer of greater than 95 Db, use only the HF end of the 3-14-08 crossover schematic. The Low Pass should still consist of 1.5 Millihenries and 12 Microfarads. When using an LE14A (which is dynamite), use the 900 Hz low pass.

For further clarification, I have added three schematics here. The first is for use with woofers producing greater than 95 DB SPL's and is dated 4-5-08. The second is for woofers producing less than 95 DB SPL's, and is dated 3-18-08. The last is specifically for the JBL LE14A, and is dated 3-14-08.

The first two use a low pass frequency of 1200 Hz, while the LE14A uses a low pass of 900 Hz.

 

[Russellc]

Russellc, thanks for pointing that out.

The crossover dated 3-14-08 is specific for the LE14A woofers I was using at that time. It had a large hump just at the upper end of it's range, so the low pass was dropped to 900 Hz to alleviate that. Since the Altec and Trusonic woofers didn't have that hump, the 1200 HZ low pass is fine. And it even works OK for the LE14A's, but 900 was marginally better.

Since you have enough top end, what you are using is fine. And with any other woofer than LE14A's, 1200 HZ is preferable

If using a woofer of greater than 95 Db, use only the HF end of the 3-14-08 crossover schematic. The Low Pass should still consist of 1.5 Millihenries and 12 Microfarads. When using an LE14A (which is dynamite), use the 900 Hz low pass.

Next order from parts express will have the 3-14-08 H.F. parts, and I will report....right now, these are playing great.:yes:
The L-pads are just a touch shy of 12:00.

PS well, now I'm paranoid....Ive got them full tilt and they dont sound bad...I need an RTA.
russellc

 

[Russellc]

OK, I'm in. Just ordered a CX-3400, so it should be here in about 4 days.

I will play with it using the EconoWave and see what happens. I only have JBL LE14, Altec 416Z, and Trusonic 120FR and 150FR woofers, so won't be able to try lots of common ones. Maybe someone can loan me some 12 and 15 inch ones to try.

I am anticipating moving up the learning curve another notch with this investment. JackLab will never rival ZilchLab though, I fear.

Good grief, what if we end up with another pair of "keepers?"

Krikey, I guess I'll have to get one to, got my eye on a 6260 on ebay to go with my 6230. Here we go again!

Russellc

 

[m4rz]

Russellc,
No my stuff hasn't arrived yet, which is probably pretty good, since my allowance has been taken away from the wife Seriously though, yes the jbl's have been ordered and then I will grab the seleniums. I figure that I will get serious about this project over the next few weeks. It's been a hassle at work, so even my eves are taken.
I am going to try these with the A7s first, then probably ask for Zilch's advice regarding the Eminence woofers that I have. Then, if I have the wood, I might just do the entire econowave speaker thing. We'll see.
Trying to get my head around this stuff has been a challenge!

 

[Russellc]

Russellc,
No my stuff hasn't arrived yet, which is probably pretty good, since my allowance has been taken away from the wife Seriously though, yes the jbl's have been ordered and then I will grab the seleniums. I figure that I will get serious about this project over the next few weeks. It's been a hassle at work, so even my eves are taken.
I am going to try these with the A7s first, then probably ask for Zilch's advice regarding the Eminence woofers that I have. Then, if I have the wood, I might just do the entire econowave speaker thing. We'll see.
Trying to get my head around this stuff has been a challenge!

Ihad great luck with the waveguides on top of the A7s. I did it on a lark, just hooked it up to a JBL 2425H pair I had, using the crossover that was in the A7.

Based on my comparison of the 811B and the 511B, and greatly prefering the sound of the 511B, I incorrectly assumed "bigger is better". I had previously tried the Eminence horn of about the same size as the wave guide, H290 I believe, and it wasnt up to the task.

This wave guide was different, that's for sure...it kept up just fine. I dont remember what high frequency unit you are using, but if it isnt screw on, you'll need an adapter, which is inexpensive as well.

Stay on this one, its a nice opportunity to get a really nice speaker out of the deal. Really nice!

Russellc

 

[Greyhawk17]

Zilch/JGiff....question

Hi,
Gathering parts for the project and have a question or two,.....As of now,
going to be using a pair of 'revised' RS Nova 8b's of approximately 2.0 cf,
plus 12" Klipsch K-22's, and in checking with a friend on the Klipsch forum,
I was told they have an SPL of 95.5-98., so would I then use the xover
from 4/05/08 on them? Also, do you think extra cabinet bracing would be
a good plan when revising cabs for the 'two'-way configuration, and last,
since the front baffle is going to be, either cut out and replaced ( from
three-way) to woofer/ wave guide/driver,.....is there an optinum distance
from the top of the woofer cut-out, to bottom of the wave guide cut-out?
Sorry for the extra questions, but much of this 'new' territory. Thank you
in advance for any information, quite excited about this project..............
Regards, T

 

[jackgiff]

Hi,
Gathering parts for the project and have a question or two,.....As of now,
going to be using a pair of 'revised' RS Nova 8b's of approximately 2.0 cf,
plus 12" Klipsch K-22's, and in checking with a friend on the Klipsch forum,
I was told they have an SPL of 95.5-98., so would I then use the xover
from 4/05/08 on them? Also, do you think extra cabinet bracing would be
a good plan when revising cabs for the 'two'-way configuration, and last,
since the front baffle is going to be, either cut out and replaced ( from
three-way) to woofer/ wave guide/driver,.....is there an optinum distance
from the top of the woofer cut-out, to bottom of the wave guide cut-out?
Sorry for the extra questions, but much of this 'new' territory. Thank you
in advance for any information, quite excited about this project..............
Regards, T

The crossover dated 4-5-08 would be the best one to use with a woofer capable of 98 DB.

I am not familiar with the Nova 8b cabinets, but Radio Shack spec'ed some nice cabinets in the early days, so I suspect it will be pretty solid. If it seems resonant though, some bracing may be called for.

My EconoWaves in Altec Santana cabinets have the frame of the LE14's touching the edge of the waveguides, since the baffle is so small. The baffles cut for Zilch's Baronets have a gap of around 1/4 inch between the Le14 frame and the edge of the waveguide. In playing with a three way system, the sound source can get much too large, so in my mind, it is better to keep the waveguide very near the woofer.

Have fun building your system. I feel sure it will amaze you.

 

[Greyhawk17]

Econo Wave Guides...........

The crossover dated 4-5-08 would be the best one to use with a woofer capable of 98 DB.

I am not familiar with the Nova 8b cabinets, but Radio Shack spec'ed some nice cabinets in the early days, so I suspect it will be pretty solid. If it seems resonant though, some bracing may be called for.

My EconoWaves in Altec Santana cabinets have the frame of the LE14's touching the edge of the waveguides, since the baffle is so small. The baffles cut for Zilch's Baronets have a gap of around 1/4 inch between the Le14 frame and the edge of the waveguide. In playing with a three way system, the sound source can get much too large, so in my mind, it is better to keep the waveguide very near the woofer.

Have fun building your system. I feel sure it will amaze you.

Thanks Jack,
With the info, plus all the saved/downloaded material, should be ready to
plunge in.....Yes, the early RS cabs are pretty nice, these are 3/4 mdf
with hardwood veneer, should servicable for first run.....BTW, your tables
were excellent, I have a couple pieces made from cactus/mesquite and
other desert woods, great materials,.... mesquite veneered cabs might be
a fun project.......Thanks, Take care, T

 

[Russellc]

OK, I've got the other parts for the high frequency crossover ordered, this should help the econowave keep up a little better with the JBL 2225H drivers.

Fortunately I made the low pass and the high pass easy to separate, as when the JBL 2235H drivers are installed, looks like its back to the high frequency circuit that is now installed.

I have looked through parts express and have found a number of fairly inexpensive drivers from eminence, Selenium and Goldwood which look good on paper and range from 45 to 85 or so, maybe an econo-bass box could be in the works, but for now have my hands and pocketbook busy with the JBL drivers. I still need to recone, about 180 each and still need the 3400 and deq 2496. Then I should have some spare time and $. Dont know if its really cost effective, used JBL drivers are out there on CL and other places for reasonable prices.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Anyone else up and running? Hopefully I will get my parts today for the other high frequency network and can see if it is any improvement or what.

Am waiting to hear all you other's project results, Greyhawk17, M4RZ, Baushausler, Need for speed, Tubtub, Dgwojo and Jack giffs on the cx 3400. Looks like a root canal is going to take front seat over my cx 3400 for just a minute or two, ouch!

Compared to my A7s, these things are fantastic...not to take away from the A7s, I like them fine still as well. One area I dont know if the econowave can keep up with the A7s is "projection" in a VERY large room. At the same time, the Econowave is a much better up close listening speaker than the A7s.

May get a chance this summer when a friend of mine generally throws a "barn dance party", I sure wont be transporting the A7s that's for sure! This year is her 50th, so it should be a good opportunity to see what people think of this project!

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Parts came and are assembled and installed. With the 2225Hs 97 db efficency, this seems to work much better. Really nice speakers. I should say insanely nice speakers, the bass even sounds better ( cant figure that one out) with this network. Everything has grown bigger, larger, and more transparent. I would give my opinion that this circuit is the way to go with drivers greater than 95 db or so.

Russellc

 

[m4rz]

holy cow...I am still waiting for my JBLs's. Why don't I just order them and have them sent to you Russellc

 

[skywave-rider]

Go Ahead and Laugh.....

Let me explain....
This is my dB (dumpster bin) EconoWave.
I plan to make new baffles and integrally mount the waveguides.
(Dimensions: 26.5Hx14.5Wx13.5D OD)

Pictured: EBayed 123A-1 mounted into a South Bronx board-up job; many holes to seal in this EAW (made by RCF) box.

It has (had) a semi rectangular port, which I covered with the scrap on the left. The plastic corners are literally holding the front/top together. I siliconed it airtight. When I get new baffles installed, I will experiment with fill. Right now I have a 5' piece of 2" foam in there; that was in the box originally, in addition to miscellaneous vermin.

 

[Zilch]

WHOA, Skywave-dood!

That's a work of ART obviously inspired by the Bahaus/Modernist school. :thmbsp:

[Or some other movement. : ]

Sounds good, too, I betcha.... :yes:

 

[Russellc]

holy cow...I am still waiting for my JBLs's. Why don't I just order them and have them sent to you Russellc

Wow,I just noticed you are in Canada. That must be why the delivery is taking longer? Guess it figures they do have to cross a border I guess. there's plenty of other prep to get ready, it surely wont take much longer for delivery. IT WILL be worth the wait.

Russellc

 

[skywave-rider]

WHOA, Skywave-dood!

That's a work of ART obviously inspired by the Bahaus/Modernist school. :thmbsp:

[Or some other movement. : ]

It doesn't sound like a bowel movement, but yes...hahaha.

 

[Russellc]

WHOA, Skywave-dood!

That's a work of ART obviously inspired by the Bahaus/Modernist school. :thmbsp:

[Or some other movement. : ]

Sounds good, too, I betcha.... :yes:

Say Zilch, let me know when you get around to trying it with the 2425H, seems like I saw a post on LHF where 4313B also desired these results...I know I know, I see all the various projects you're doing, all in good time!

In the mean while, I have read a load of threads about mating the BMS for altec purposes....I'm sure it would make a great "not so" econowave driver as well, could you post the cross over for the BMS? I have found the comp circuit from post #89 in the "BMS Drivers" thread, but cant remember where all the various crossovers for BMS are

Thanks in advance,

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Let me explain....
These are my dB (dumpster bin) Econo variants.
I plan to cut new baffles and mount the waveguide inside.
(Dimensions: 26.5Hx14.5Wx13.5D OD)

Pictured are my EBayed 123A-1s mounted into a South Bronx board-up job; many holes in this EAW (made by RCF) box.

It has a semi rectangular port, which I covered with the scrap on the left. The corner covers are literally holding the front/top together. I siliconed it airtight. When I get baffles on, I will experiment with fill. Right now I have a 5' piece of 2" foam in there; that was in the box originally.

Don't have a passive crossover yet, so currently listening w/BMS and CX3400. X-over at 1200/phase reversed. Tried 2k and that's pretty good too, not phase reversed.

No measurements, I'm waiting until I put the Seleniums on.

I'm sure an audition would stiffel all laughter! These are Kick ass speakers, and a high point in DIY forum speaker builds. Plus, when the new baffles are done, they will look as good as they sound...:yes:

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Selenium 220ti availability and parts express

I will call them shortly, but Parts Express sent me their new catalog, and it doesnt list the 220ti. It lists the 210ti, @ 42.00, but has it on sale for less, no mention of the 220ti. The web page shows it as "available" so I was just wondering.

They list another driver, the 2500ti, which uses the same diaphragm as the 220ti, at 75.00 per. It really looks like a winner, but I think the BMS drivers are my next experiment, for the A7s as well as the econowaves.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

"In Stock" it says:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-270