Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I don't perceive the Seleniums as being particularly fragile, so I'll be interested in knowing what has failed.

The replacement diaphragms are quite inexpensive, but order more than one. Prior experience with those here indicates that the voice coils are sometimes out of round, so it's not always a simple plug 'n' play swap. :dunno:

It doesnt really make sense, it was mounted to the waveguide wich was mounted to the box.
 
L56 Update

Tis a bloody ting of beauty, aye. :thmbsp:

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I have ONE done.:D

The ADS woofers (206-0324) are f-ing brilliant. To be fair, it's now apparent that the 118H woofers really need a refoam. The old surrounds are just too stiff.

I've got solid bass down to 40 Hz, folks. No official measurement, of course, but it is more than just there. 30 Hz wasn't much farther down in volume. Running the Lpad full out was not a problem, either. The balance is great -- better than I hoped for with the hurdles in this project... DIY ROCKS!

:banana: :music: :banana:

:tresbon:

Hell, now i have to do the whole fing thing over again... :D
 
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Thread-on Adapter Study:

Two D220Ti thread-on versions Red & Green, and two bolt on ones w/P-Audio adapters Orange and Blue, and Selenium adapters Violet and Cyan:

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Todd's-eye view:

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Does this mean the throat adapters make for less response at both ends of the bandwidth?

Well, no, not necessarily; these older bolt-on drivers may simply have less of that to begin with, but there are differences, again, "in detail," between these two manufacturers' adapters on the pair of them, Orange versus Violet and Blue versus Cyan, indicating that adapters may very well influence the response characteristics to some degree.... :yes:

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Footnote: The highpass here is one of a pair of high-sensitivity variant E'Wave crossovers I just completed for a client; it's playing +/- 2 dB with the standard D220Ti thread-on drivers.... :thmbsp:
 

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Hell, now i have to do the whole fing thing over again... :D

Nice job! Yes, DIY rocks!

I have a theory about stereo DIY vs mono. Sure, stereo means twice the work in some ways, but... in a way I think it's the best thing for the DIY learning curve. A lot of the work of DIY is determining what to do, gathering the parts to do it, then figuring out the actual detail-level implementation of layout, cutting, drilling, soldering, clamping, finishing. The steps of what to do and parts gathering are mostly the same for stereo as mono (except parts gathering is a lot more challenging if you are scavenging old parts and need PAIRS). But when you actually build that second channel -- when you're not very experienced -- you get to act out what you just learned in terms of tricks! So it usually goes faster, but also better as you more confidently incorporate fresh lessons of those little construction tips and tricks.

So my theory is that stereo more than doubles your advance on the learning curve of how-to hands-on stuff. The professional educators would say it's pedagogically sound.

The second channel is often fun in a different way. First channel you learn how, second channel you do it with more speed and confidence and maybe ability too (assuming you're starting from inexperience). I'm sure it wears off when you do a lot of it though, and just becomes a chore.
 
It doesnt really make sense, it was mounted to the waveguide wich was mounted to the box.

Zilch, FYI, when the box fell the leads from the crossover to the D220ti were attached. When they jerked loose that pulled on the tabs on the driver, that in turn stretched the copper band from the tab to the voice coil and snapped it in half. I repositioned the two ends of the copper band together and put some medium CA glue on the to hold them together and hopefully that will work, if not I will buy a new diaphragm.
 
Does this mean the throat adapters make for less response at both ends of the bandwidth?
... are differences, again, "in detail," between these two manufacturers' adapters on the pair of them,
... indicating that adapters may very well influence the response characteristics to some degree....
Sorry for all the questions- For those unable to interpret the findings from the response graph in practical terms- are the differences great enough to be perceptible?
Can we presume the differences in measurement responses to be due to the physical distance between driver and waveguide created by the adapter, or another anomaly which would require experimentation to identify?
 
Sorry for all the questions- For those unable to interpret the findings from the response graph in practical terms- are the differences great enough to be perceptible? Can we presume the differences in measurement responses to be due to the physical distance between driver and waveguide created by the adapter, or another anomaly which would require experimentation to identify?
The variations between the two types of adapters are less than those between the two drivers themselves.

With respect to the diminished response at the extremes, there's nothing to be done about that above 18 kHz, but I'd probably be considering whether I need to tweak the basic highpass filter at the low end based upon the response in combination with the woofer(s). That's in the crossover region, and might actually be advantageous with a woofer having a peaked response there.

Again, whether these larger variations are the result of using throat adapters or not is indeterminate, and there are no horns or waveguides that are at once both bolt-on and thread-on to resolve that.

As to the reason(s) any of this is going on, I suppose there are designers with specialized horn throat geometry expertise, but in practical terms, nobody gives a whit. Geddes would fill any discontinuities with clay, probably, and call it "Done...." :dunno:
 
Just curious, can I use 1st order crossover on my altec 414 woofer and keep the same econowave version for the high - if so then what should i cross it at --- 1200hz???

Also for the 8" JBL Wave guide, do i use same crossover as the 338800-001 wave guide or do i have to change different value for the compensation circuit. Thanks.
 
Just curious, can I use 1st order crossover on my altec 414 woofer and keep the same econowave version for the high - if so then what should i cross it at --- 1200hz???

Also for the 8" JBL Wave guide, do i use same crossover as the 338800-001 wave guide or do i have to change different value for the compensation circuit. Thanks.
Using 1st order will introduce phase issues. If you must, make it quasi-2nd-order with a Zobel; otherwise stick with the program would be my advice.

The 8" square waveguide requires additional HF compensation, the highpass frequency is a bit higher, and the role of a baffle is significant. See our recent discussion earlier in this thread.... :yes:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2475659&#post2475659
 
EconoWave is One

With 133 participants, an unprecedented 4450 posts, 174,000 views, and 38 AKers having completed "Official" projects, today is E'Wave's 1st anniversary. We've come a very long way with this simple concept through the continuing contributions of so many members, and I'm sure Jack joins me in thanking you all for making EconoWave such an outstanding success:

Horns arrived over the weekend and I have to say they sound absolutely beautiful even with incorrect coils that i used (don't have any 3mh right now.) I much preferred them to the altec 811b/806 horns drivers combo in my Altec Malibu. A big thank to everyone who contributed to this superb econo waveguide design.:thmbsp:

They sound very good! The horn has excellent dispersion and covers its assigned music spectrum of 3,000khz~20,000khz very well with no obvious peaks or drop outs. The Selenium driver is VERY efficient so padding or LPads are needed. The driver exhibits very smooth sound and will not fatigue you like most will. The Klipsch Heresy horns will sonicly wear me down after 30~45 minutes of playing time- these did not after listening to them for over 3 hours!! These are the best $25 drivers you will ever see- beating out a lot of drivers at twice the price!!

Long and short these could serve dual duties in a pro audio setting and even the efficient home audio low watt applications. These do perform quite well in both roles and actually look good doing it!
DC

My ESS E-waves are complete. The bass was unbelievable…way down to the lowest bass note without rolloff, the mids were as clear and dynamic as you would expect from horns with ABSOLUTLY no horn sound. The high are sweet, sweet, sweet. The horns with the Zen amp sound very rich, detailed, and present.

With E'wave, the sound was just GRAND. sound stage opened up atleast 50% wider. imaging is amazingly clear and well defined. Compared to the 811 horns and the biamp set up i was using, let me just say, a lot of crap just got wiped off, and feels like someone just opened the window wide open. The sound is incredibly stable and solid. I just can't understand how this sound can come out of this little horn and the cab size i used......

Update: after more than a month of everyday listening, I still think these are by far the best sounding speakers I've ever connected to my various systems. Yes, even compared to some of the huge Altec models which, to me, lacked smoothness that these Ecowaves produce.

Econowave is well worth pursuing :thmbsp: ...yep!

These are way above anything I have yet used.

There's no dancing bloody banana to represent how these things sound.

It's a nice sound. With a new pair of speakers, what I notice first is what's right, then later the flaws become noticed. The midrange seems smooth. The presence region (1,500 - 3,000) may be a little depressed. They're definitely not forward in the presence. The shrillness and aggressiveness that so many of us hate in cheap horns is absent. The top end is very smooth, maybe on the sweet side. I'm convinced that this is a horn that would convert horn haters.

At this point, I have heard only two EWG systems. Both were easily in the best sounding DIY speakers I ever heard. I suggest to anyone contemplating on whether or not it's worth it.: It is well worth it and will shake your conception of a low cost DIY speaker's ability to play with the big dogs. Do it.

Man, the ease and openness of this horn is outstanding. It's hard to imagine someone not liking the mids and treble from this system.

E'Wave is just plain silly good.... :thmbsp:

Agreed on 'silly good'. I'm sitting here listening to my modded Audiophile Grade Sony SCPH-1001 PS-1 as a CD player, obsolete Yamaha C-2X preamp and intellectual property violating Rowland copy MOSFET amp with the ULA Ewaves and it's just absurd how good this sounds for how cheap/simple/easy it all is.

These sound, nice, real nice...

Thanks to Jack, Zilch, Russell, Kegger, Denny and all the others for their input, guidance, design, support and general presence in helping me select and build these marvelous speakers. :thmbsp:

Man, I have been listening to this set up the past few days and if you are still on the fence on this project, get on with it!!! At first, I was afraid that the highs from the Selenium will kill my hearing like the highs from the Heresy and Altec Bolero (though the tweeter level is crudely adjustable). But no, the high is nice and smooth in my loft style bedroom. Time to get rid of some speakers.

you guys figured out the sound, I'm work'n on the style of the Altec's. Man they sound sweeeet.

OK....I gotta say Holy Crap! :yikes:

Already considering another pair. The Valencias and Chorus IIs may be heading out the door.

They are freaky good, aren't they? The cost/benefit ratio is through the roof.

Anybody who hasn't built a set yet and has even the slightest interest to tinker, is missing out.

It easily out performs anything I have built or bought and for way less $$....

The resulting speaker sounds excellent by any standard and sounds fabulous for what it costs. You literally can't buy sound as good as the Ewave series for less dough....

I personally think those two (Ewave & maggie amps) are the most enlightening things happened to me in last 3-4 years of my AK life. :thmbsp::thmbsp::thmbsp:

I have the Utility Large Advent Ewaves hooked up next to the Linn Isobariks ($$$) both running off of an Accuphase P-300 that I just finished rehabbing. Switching back and forth reveals far less difference than you would expect from the comparison between Linn's best pro monitor and an amateur DIY horn conversion. The Ewave is just absurdly good.

As far as for home use, I have built many different speakers using a variety of drivers from Audax, Peerless, Dynaudio, Morel and Focal. The econowaves have nothing to be ashamed of. I am quite pleased with the detail and smoothness of the mid to upper registers. A little more open in the upper registers than the Morel and Dynaudio tweeters that I have used.

It sounds reeeeaaaaalllly good!:thmbsp:

I am astonished by the sound generated by these little guys.

Finally!!!! And it was worth the wait for sure. Well they are done! And I can honestly say they sound pretty good. It would be impossible to buy anything that performs this good for the investment thats for sure. Good Bass with sharp clear highs and mids. This was definitely a fun project with results I couldnt have imagined.

By the way, thanks everyone for your work on this project. They sound terrific!

Thanks for the nice comments, the OLAs were near perfect when I got them, I had a hard time justifying the chop-job. Once done I was amazed at the difference in soundstage, imaging and overall clarity of the HF. Anyone sitting on the fence should definately DIY! Jim

Instead of sounding like 2 speakers, with everything either on the left, the right, or in the middle, it's now spread out between the speakers. All this in a tiny room has typically been too much to ask for from every other speaker I've set up in the workshop. In fact, I've never expected 'imaging' of any sort because of the size of that room.

I was in dire need of a decent speaker, and this is, by far, is the best I've had ... I must say great sounding! Thanks again, These are KEEPERS. :D

Anybody on the fence about building a pair of these should just get on with it and "get er done" I am getting Mcintosh like performance with a Marantz receiver. Its a 200.00 or so project but much cheaper than buying a new amp or gear and you will have the satisfaction of "building it yourself".

I finished my second pair a month or so back and loaned them to my brother
so they could get some burn in time. They replaced a mint pair of KLH 5's
and he said I could not have them back. :sigh:

Are they perfect? no, but close enough to start fine tuning and better
than anything else I've listened to.

"I had the pleasure of hearing Wayne's UltraHacked Advent/JBL/Selenium combo today. Stunningly good for almost no money. :thmbsp:"

Thanks for the speaker info because these things sound awesome.

I went by vette1220's this afternoon and had a quick listen.We played around with the placement and got them up off the floor and onto some bar stools and I can confirm they sound awesome.

Ewaves rock.

THESE THINGS SOUND ABSOLUTELY IN - CREDIBLE !!!!!

My Econowaves have been playing for a few weeks now and I've been totally loving them. They kick ass as my front theater speakers. Voice tracks are crystal clear, explosions are room shaking, and I no longer need to use my subs.

Introducing...the Peav-e-Wave 112DLs!!! :banana::banana:

I cannot believe how these sound. To call them excellent speakers is an understatement. These speakers have changed my idea of what a loudspeaker is capable of. No joke. I have not one complaint about these things. These speakers are just 100% pure awesomeness.


Wave ON!! :thmbsp:
 
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I have to agree with everybody. Although mine aren't official Econowaves because I used the Dayton 7x7 waveguide, they sound unbelievable. Im listening to Americas greatest hits on vinyl right now and it sounds amazing. I'm hearing details that I didn't even know were in the recording. Thanks Zilch.
 
Thanks Zilch, thanks, Jack, Russell et. al..:ntwrthy:
U learned me good.

I actually feel guilty if I don't keep up with this thread.

Econowave is a perfect way to introduce listeners to high quality and accurate reproduction which is not based around black box technology.
Liberating.
:thmbsp:
 
Using 1st order will introduce phase issues. If you must, make it quasi-2nd-order with a Zobel; otherwise stick with the program would be my advice.

The 8" square waveguide requires additional HF compensation, and the baffle is significant. See our recent discussion earlier in this thread.... :yes:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2475659&#post2475659

Thanks Zilch for the respond and link to the 8" waveguide. I will stick w/ the original design on the woofer.
 
A BIG ASS THANKS to all you guys for developing this project. I have about four more ewaves planned. But, one thing at a time. Cheers.
 
First Ewaves!

Here`s my first attempt. I55s with the tweeter and crossover disconnected. The improvement over the originals is remarkable. I thank whomever put together the Le14 crossover as they have done a fine job. This is my first time playing with JBLs and i have to say i`m impressed with the build quality and fidelity these large woofers have. As you can see i have done a rather rudimentary job of bodging these together, so i think i will build some new cabinets for these soon with rather more room to let these drivers really stretch their legs.
Many thanks to all concerned who have put in countless hours to refine this project to where it is today. I`ll post pics of the new cabs when they`re ready. Steve.
 

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Hi, Steve!

You are Official E'Waver #39 with your "Classic" first system:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584

As many have previously discovered, it's not necessary to modify an existing system in any way other than to connect wires to the woofers to taste EconoWave performance.

After that comes the adventure of honing and developing the principles demonstrated here according to your personal tastes and preferences into a system that becomes very much your own creation.... :thmbsp:
 
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