Preamp Recommendations Please!!

[samwise801]

Okay, okay -- I have been bitten by the bug. Some recent upgrades to my home system have me thinking about others I can make, and I'm looking for some input / ideas / advice.

The core of my home audio system is / was a Yamaha RX-V1300 Receiver. But now, I've upgraded with some nice hand-me-down stuff: a Nakamichi PA-7 and B.A. Lynnfield 500Ls. Those are both in place now and sound great -- yes, certainly an upgrade over the 601s and RX-V1300's internal amp.

But, alas, that means my pre-amp is "just" the Yamaha. I have a number of sources feeding into it -- a total of six, a mix of digital and analog -- and am using its pre-amp output to feed the PA-7.

I know many folks believe the pre-amp to be the most important component in a system, or certainly one of them. And looking at the Yamaha's specs has me a little...concerned that it's now the weakest link in my system. (Its manual says its unbalanced pre-outs are rated at 1.0V. That looks low to me, where other "nice" pre-amps boast 2.5V or more.)

So, folks, is it worth looking for a replacement for my RX-V1300? Is its (decent? not-so-decent?) pre-amp signal really handicapping the performance of my PA-7?

If so, one concern I have is that I have so many source devices. Three of them are HDMI / optical audio home entertainment devices. Then I have a turntable w/ a Shure M97xE cartridge, an external radio tuner, and an Apple AirPort Express. Each of those uses just a good ol'-fashioned red-and-white RCA connection.

It's also going to drive my wife nuts if any new pre-amp is at all difficult or complicated to use. So it needs to be remote-controlled, and be able to switch between all these inputs at the touch of a remote button. (If she's got to go turning knobs on the front of the damn thing to hear the TV after I've left it on the Phono input, she'll be very cross.)

So, are there pre-amps out there that will a) put out a signal that will drive my PA-7 significantly better than the Yamaha, b) integrate seamlessly in my admittedly-crowded system, and c) be as easy to use as the current Receiver?

(And, of course, bonus points for a pre-amp that will let me bypass all its sound processing gobbledy-gook if I want to, for the Phono input for example.)

And...GO!!!

 

[WobblySam]

Well, what you're talking about isn't really a "pure" preamp as such. Given your HDMI requirements, you're looking for another home theater control center. As to the preamp's output, you need to determine your amplifier's input sensitivity. If it produces full output with a 1 volt rms signal, then that's all you need. Some tube preamps will output 10volts or more p-p. Newer solid state amps don't require anywhere near that level. I haven't seen a preamp out as low as yours, but I haven't used every preamp either.
Take a look at some offerings from Marantz and Emotiva since you need a HT preamp. I haven't kept up with the HT stuff in a while - there may be plenty of other choices, I just don't keep up with them. You may want to post this in the HT section also.

Good luck

 

[samwise801]

Hello! Thanks for the reply -- I had pegged this thread for dead.

I've been shopping around a bit and think I've whittled down what I want. I'm not in the mood / need to replace my whole home theater control center -- I'll just stick with the Yammie on that end for now. I'm sure I could do better, and it would be nice to have a super-nice all-in-one solution, but the budget just doesn't allow for it at the moment...

So, I'm now eyeing two-channel pre-amps with HT bypass, such as the Parasound 2100 / Halo P5, Emotiva USP-1, etc. etc. This allows me to keep using the RX-V1300 for my digital HT sources, but then use something with more...quality for my stereo, music-only sources.

Thoughts on this?

(Also, HiFi Engine seems to think the PA-7 has an input sensitivity of 2V. So that would confirm that it's not reaching its full potential with the RX-V1300's signal, correct?)

 

[WobblySam]

It seems you might be leaning toward a separate 2 channel system. I would recommend it - I separated all my HT stuff from my main audio system about 15 years ago. Now the HT stuff sits on a little 4 shelf rack by itself. But, if you have "domestic" concerns, then the options you mentioned are a good start.

As to the sensitivity issue - you have to know what the values represent. If the preamp is rated at 1 volt RMS out (and the RMS is important) and the amplifier is rated 2 volt peak to peak, it's a perfect match. Why? 1 volt RMS = 2.82 volts peak to peak. You have to know what comes after the volts number or you won't know anything.
I hope this helps.
Good luck with your system.

 

[samwise801]

It seems you might be leaning toward a separate 2 channel system. I would recommend it - I separated all my HT stuff from my main audio system about 15 years ago. Now the HT stuff sits on a little 4 shelf rack by itself. But, if you have "domestic" concerns, then the options you mentioned are a good start.

As to the sensitivity issue - you have to know what the values represent. If the preamp is rated at 1 volt RMS out (and the RMS is important) and the amplifier is rated 2 volt peak to peak, it's a perfect match. Why? 1 volt RMS = 2.82 volts peak to peak. You have to know what comes after the volts number or you won't know anything.
I hope this helps.
Good luck with your system.

Awesome -- thank you!

That's one problem then -- I can't seem to find really detailed specs on either of my current units. The Nak PA-7 specs don't say anything about peak-to-peak; is that just implied in that 2V value I found on HiFi Engine? And when I look at the specs of my Yamaha, it doesn't give me separate RMS and peak values. (And I've seen a couple of different numbers out there for it too -- one said 2.57V, I think.)

So, if I get a preamp with a stronger output signal than 1V (which both Parasounds have), will that be a problem for the PA-7? Will there be a greater risk of overloading / overheating / otherwise damaging that beast if I feed it, say, the 7V maximum output that's listed for the Halo P5?

 

[WobblySam]

No, you won't overload it - but you could. You'll still be controlling the output of the preamp with the volume control. Music, being dynamic in nature, will have numerous peaks and valleys in the voltage signal from the preamp - unless of course, you listen to a lot of poorly mastered, heavily compressed stuff like EDM.
The compressed stuff would only result in what you would see as a diminished range of your volume control. So, don't turn it up far enough to cause distortion and you'll be fine.
Good luck

 

[Lesterbest]

What's the budget, lest this turn into a wheel spinner?

 

[Sir Bakerman]

Samwise,

I was in your shoes about 8 years ago so I feel your pain.
My recommendation is to use the Yamaha for HT and get separates for the music end. This is what I did and I could not be happier. FWIW Schiit has just released a tube pre-amp with remote control for $349. It is called the Saga, and although I don't own one ( yet ) it fills all my check boxes. Of course you will need to get a phono amp, but they can be had for less than $100. Be careful though, as I was told a long time ago this is a VERY slippery slope.

They were correct.
Best of luck.

Sir B.

 

[Mike1968]

I have never found an AV preamp that is as good as a well designed and built preamp, especially if used as a phono preamp. I use a Marantz AV7702 as my AV preamp but it's main outputs feed my Ayre K-1 through a balanced input. Unity gain on the preamp is about 75%, and the impact on the signal chain for AV use is indistinguishable. I switch the Ayre between phono and video and leave it on the video mode for ease of use for my better half. She knows to turn down the volume if she wants to play a record.

The Nak CA-5 and CA-7 preamps were pretty cool in their time and would match the PA-7, but I might keep an eye out for a used Threshold FET9, FET 10 or a Forte of the same generation. Nelson Pass designs that were very well built and sound very good.

For a quick perspective on preamp output capability you can connect a CD player directly to your PA-7 (make sure to turn off first). It will be quite loud with the output of the CD player at only around 2volts. If you turned up a preamp all the way with an output of 7volts with normal source material, it would drive the amp into clipping, the speakers would be playing too loud before they blew up, and the sun would turn into a white dwarf!

 

[bobschneider]

Perhaps Nak produced a preamp to mate with their big Stasis?

That would be the CA-7A. Remote controlled, MM and MC phono, sounds great.

They also made a CA-5A without remote and some other features. But that one is supposed to not sound as good as its big brother. The CA-5A II is supposed to sound much closer to the CA-7A.

 

[Lesterbest]

I have never found an AV preamp that is as good as a well designed and built preamp, especially if used as a phono preamp. I use a Marantz AV7702 as my AV preamp but it's main outputs feed my Ayre K-1 through a balanced input. Unity gain on the preamp is about 75%, and the impact on the signal chain for AV use is indistinguishable. I switch the Ayre between phono and video and leave it on the video mode for ease of use for my better half. She knows to turn down the volume if she wants to play a record.

The Nak CA-5 and CA-7 preamps were pretty cool in their time and would match the PA-7, but I might keep an eye out for a used Threshold FET9, FET 10 or a Forte of the same generation. Nelson Pass designs that were very well built and sound very good.

For a quick perspective on preamp output capability you can connect a CD player directly to your PA-7 (make sure to turn off first). It will be quite loud with the output of the CD player at only around 2volts. If you turned up a preamp all the way with an output of 7volts with normal source material, it would drive the amp into clipping, the speakers would be playing too loud before they blew up, and the sun would turn into a white dwarf!

Which part of BUDGET did you not understand???

 

[Mike1968]

I've seen Nak CA-5's for less than $400? Good older analog preamps can be found for very cheap and generally offer better performance than a HT receiver used as a preamp. My point was about using it in the signal chain in between the amp and HT receiver.
Didn't mean to upset anyone.