Opinions On the C2200 -- Does It Have a "Vacuum Tube" Sound?

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feinstei

AK Member
There's a C2200 up for auction on E-Bay. I was thinking about replacing the front two channels of my MX-121 so that I'd have an "all tube" path from my phono (MT-5 with MT-10 cartridge feeding a vacuum tube McIntosh MP-1100 phono preamp) to my MC-275 (in stereo mode) amp. Forgive me for not being a "purist", but I enjoy the sound of vacuum tubes (I've had Citation I, II, and III, Dynaco PAS-3 and Stereo 70, and Marantz 7C, 9, and 10B's in the past).

I've researched it here on AudioKarma but I'm still "on-the-fence" in terms of buying it. Can anyone here who owns one describe the pros and cons of the C2200? Have you had any service problems with it? Does it have the "vacuum tube sound" that I'm looking for? Remember, I will not be using the phono section, but simply feeding the balanced output of the MP-1100 into one of the high-level inputs on the C2200.

Are there particular advantages that the later models have (C2300, C2500) would have? I do want to keep my cash outlay below $4500.

Any comments that you can give, pro or con would be helpful Thanks in advance....
 
The McIntosh preamps you mentioned do not have that 'tubey' sound that you mentioned. I had the C2200, C2300 and the C2500. I would go for the C2300. It provides the best of all worlds. If you need a built in dac, the C2500 would be your choice of the Mac preamps.

I now use the C52 preamp as I wanted to go with an all SS system.
 
I have both 2200 and 2300.

2200 Advantages:

1. It does have a more "tubey" sound. It has 4 tubes in the line section (2300 has 2), providing more opportunity for tweaking the sound by tube rolling.
2. The styling and operation has a more "classic" feel.

2300 Advantages:

1. The phono section is MILES ahead of the 2200.
2. It has more flexible user interface - it remembers settings including tone controls on a per input basis.
3. It has LED illumination (can be retrofitted to 2200).
4. It is a newer unit, pushing the need for eventual overhaul further into the future.

If I didn't need the phono and didn't get a great deal on the 2300, I would still use the 2200 most happily. But as I do and did, the 2200 is now largely a backup unit. Still, I'm never going to sell it.
 
Well, it does not appear that the C2200 has the Passthru feature - something that you will definitely want when pairing with your MX121 pre/pro. And trust me when I tell you that you most certainly DO want that.

Your budget should easily allow for the C2300, which does include that feature.
 
Thanks for your very helpful comments everybody. I especially appreciate the warning about passthrough and the link to Ken Kessler's discussion from DaMacMan. It seems that this exercise is kind of an expensive and inconvenient operation for the little bit of tube-sound that I'd gain since newer tube equipment seems to be engineered to be "quick" and not flabby like the Marantz tube stuff was (as Mamrak1 said) . Thanks again for replying! I've learned a lot from your comments. I'll let you know what I finally decide to get....
 
I do the dual preamp thing with my C200 and Integra DHC-80.6. You really do get it all when you do this and there is no going back. Recall, I upgraded from a C100A to the C200 simply for the PASSTHRU feature. Super convenient for the whole family.

One thing that you may not have thought of is that you can connect any source with dual outputs to both preamps. I do this with my Pioneer CDP and my Oppo Bluray player. This allows you to use a stereo source with the added benefit of the surround processing or a multi-ch source as a 2-ch source. Example - I want to listen to an SACD in 2-ch with the highest resolution. No prob via the C200 via the Oppo's STEREO outputs. Or, I want to listen to a 5.1 music SACD, DVD-A, or Bluray - no problem via, the 80.6 and HDMI.
 
damacman said:
I do the dual preamp thing with my C200 and Integra DHC-80.6. You really do get it all when you do this and there is no going back. Recall, I upgraded from a C100A to the C200 simply for the PASSTHRU feature. Super convenient for the whole family.
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Click to expand...
DaMacMan -- If you can explain one more thing to me about the Pass-Through feature....

Let's say I want to insert the tube preamp into the system which is currently being "run" by my MX-121. I have only one power amplifier for the front stereo channels (the MC-275 Mk VI) and a MC-7106 (bridged to 3 mono channels) for the center and rear channels.

I would feed the outputs from my MP-1100 phono preamp, MR88 tuner, and the analogue balanced outputs from my MVP-891 BluRay player directly into the tube preamp which would be connected via balanced output cables directly to the MC-275 Mk VI's balanced inputs.

I would feed my TV's Optical, MLD-7020's LaserDisc Player's Optical, and MVP-891's HDMI output into the MX-121. The MX-121's unbalanced center and rear channel amp outputs would be fed directly into the MC-7106.

Now, the question is... How do I hear the front stereo channels from the MX-121 with this configuration? If I bought the C2200 which does not have pass-through, could I not simply feed the balanced amp outputs for the front stereo channels from the MX-121 into a balanced input on the C2200? Then, when I want to listed to surround sound material from the TV, LaserDisc, or BluRay player, couldn't I just select the "MX-121" balanced input on the C2200?

How does Pass-Through help me?
 
feinstei said:
DaMacMan -- If you can explain one more thing to me about the Pass-Through feature....

Let's say I want to insert the tube preamp into the system which is currently being "run" by my MX-121. I have only one power amplifier for the front stereo channels (the MC-275 Mk VI) and a MC-7106 (bridged to 3 mono channels) for the center and rear channels.

I would feed the outputs from my MP-1100 phono preamp, MR88 tuner, and the analogue balanced outputs from my MVP-891 BluRay player directly into the tube preamp which would be connected via balanced output cables directly to the MC-275 Mk VI's balanced inputs.

I would feed my TV's Optical, MLD-7020's LaserDisc Player's Optical, and MVP-891's HDMI output into the MX-121. The MX-121's unbalanced center and rear channel amp outputs would be fed directly into the MC-7106.

Now, the question is... How do I hear the front stereo channels from the MX-121 with this configuration? If I bought the C2200 which does not have pass-through, could I not simply feed the balanced amp outputs for the front stereo channels from the MX-121 into a balanced input on the C2200? Then, when I want to listed to surround sound material from the TV, LaserDisc, or BluRay player, couldn't I just select the "MX-121" balanced input on the C2200?

How does Pass-Through help me?
Click to expand...
You have it all right. The front L&R of the MX121 would be connected to the C2200 / C2300 inputs of your choosing. Either the C2200 or C2300 can be used as a stand alone preamp with your analog sources, MC275 MKVI, and front main speakers. Here's the difference for HT use:

C2300 w/ PASSTHRU - You turn on the MX121, the C2300 automatically powers up, switches to the input you have connected to the MX121, the volume setting ramped up to unity (85 or so), and any control that has to do with balance, volume, etc. on the C2300 is inoperable. If you were already using the C2300 and it's ON, then the only thing it won't do when the MX121 is turned on is to power up as it's already powered up. Everything else works as I outlined.

C2200 w/o PASSTHRU - You turn on the MX121, turn on the C2200, change the input setting on the C2200 to the input you have connected to the MX121, increase the volume on the C2200 to 85 (or so), and you're all set. [Try and teach the misses this procedure . . . ] Now, here's the rub. You then turn off the MX121 and want to listen to music via the C2200 only. You change the input setting on the C2200 to the desired source, hit play and . . . well, you've forgotten to reduce the volume control on the C2200 from 85 . . .

PASSTHRU provides seamless integration of the two preamps with no ill side effects.
 
To the moderator: I hope that by posting

OK.... Now I get it...... Thanks for explaining.... I think that I still want a C2200...

1) Because of the price difference... about $3400 for the C2200 vesus about $4400 to $4500 for the C2300's that I see for sale online at E-Bay and US Audio Mart....

2) And also because of the fact that the C2300 has more of itself dedicated to the Phono Preamp than the C2200 does. Remember that I have no use for the Phono Preamp capabilities since I currently have the MP-1100.... The C2300 dedicates 2 12AX7A's to the Moving Coil, 2 12AX7A's to the Moving Magnet, and 2 12AX7A's to the High Level inputs.. Thus, I have 2 wasted preamplification stages that I'll never use in the C2300. Much more opportunity for "tube rolling" in the C2200 as Oregonalex said above....

Thanks again everybody for the education!
 
louisjames said:
If you get the 2200 then you might want to consider NOS Slyvania 12AT7WA which are the military versions and fairly cost effect compared to Tele's and the like. My favorites are the late 50's / early 60's and I found they balance very well with NOS Amperex (Holland) and the German-made 12AX7 tubes. I've had less success with current issue tubes though many find they work very well. This page from Brent Jesse's site might prove useful:
http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm
Click to expand...

Thanks Louis... I'm sure that the tube "rolling" will be an education. I'm still using the 12AX7A's that came with my MC-275 Mk VI, but I've replaced the lousy McIntosh KT88's (that blew my Plate Resistors -- you can read about my saga elsewhere on this forum) with a quad of matched Electro-Harmonix KT88's from Amazon with excellent results... I appreciate your advice and will consider experimenting with these various tubes once I get the C2200 in my rack.....
 
damacman said:
You have it all right. The front L&R of the MX121 would be connected to the C2200 / C2300 inputs of your choosing. Either the C2200 or C2300 can be used as a stand alone preamp with your analog sources, MC275 MKVI, and front main speakers. Here's the difference for HT use:

C2300 w/ PASSTHRU - You turn on the MX121, the C2300 automatically powers up, switches to the input you have connected to the MX121, the volume setting ramped up to unity (85 or so), and any control that has to do with balance, volume, etc. on the C2300 is inoperable. If you were already using the C2300 and it's ON, then the only thing it won't do when the MX121 is turned on is to power up as it's already powered up. Everything else works as I outlined.

C2200 w/o PASSTHRU - You turn on the MX121, turn on the C2200, change the input setting on the C2200 to the input you have connected to the MX121, increase the volume on the C2200 to 85 (or so), and you're all set. [Try and teach the misses this procedure . . . ] Now, here's the rub. You then turn off the MX121 and want to listen to music via the C2200 only. You change the input setting on the C2200 to the desired source, hit play and . . . well, you've forgotten to reduce the volume control on the C2200 from 85 . . .

PASSTHRU provides seamless integration of the two preamps with no ill side effects.
Click to expand...

I have used my C220 (no pass-through feature) as described with the MX (and the surround pre I had before the MX) but I set the C220 volume to 50 for surround operation. Means, I set it to 50 when I set up and calibrated the surround system and then set it to 50 for surround playback to keep front / rear in balance. Not too loud if left at 50 for other sources. The ideal volume control level for the C220 would be that which provides unity gain (0 dB) so that the output signal voltage for the C220 is the same as the input signal from the MX 121, but I don't know want volume level (on the 0 to 100 scale) corresponds to unity gain so I just picked 50.

I don't really have any operational problems using the C220 / MX 121 this way. (No one else runs my system, so there's no training issues.)

My only concern with working this way is running the tubes (expensive Telefunken) every time I want to watch TV. In the C220, I can shut off the phono tubes when not in use, so I would only be running two tubes during surround.

Another possible issue is overdriving the C220 line amp causing distortion when the MX 121 is turned up loud - but I've never had a problem with that.

So, even though I don't like the idea, it is way cheaper to just replace the tubes in the C220 than to upgrade to a preamp just to get pass-through.

Interesting to hear then, that the C2300 has to be on (and using tubes) during surround pass-through operation. Not owning a C2300, I thought the pass-through feature just passed the MX front channels through passively, with C2330 not needing to be powered (just a switch) so that the C2300 tubes would not be on when "watching TV." So for me, the pass-through feature is not very useful except in a SS preamp.

BTW, I have recently come to the conclusion that even the lowly C220 sounds (a bit) better than the MX 121 (pure direct) with analog sources (LP and SACD) so I am still motivated to use both.
 
Thanks for your comment on the C220 with the MX-121 Terry. I think that there's a bit of adjustment I can also do on the MX-121 Setup side to lower the input levels for the multi-channel sources. In addition I can raise the phono and tuner levels going into the tube preamp so the the MX-121 sources won't blast me out of the room when I use them. The MP-1100 and MR-88 both have adjustments in their setups.
 
You want to use the Tube pre-amp all the time. Correct. So you donneed the pass thru feature. Just call up Mac and ask Chuck what unity gain is on the pre-amp you choose, 2200, 2300, 2500, etc. Then set the level that way and then calibrate your MX 121 as you normally would. Unity gain on my MX-119 was 69. I haven't called for the MX 151 but thats what I use on Zone 2 to make analog tape recordings. Digital recordings come straight off the MVP player to the CD recorder digital input. Here again if I want to make a DVD copy take the output of the MVP player or Apple TV or something else and to go to the digital inputs on the DVD recorder. If you want tube tube sound its either the C-2200, C-22III or C-20. The 20 will give you the sound all right but will most definitely compromise the MX 121 for use in the HT modes. The issue I have when you go to use the system in the HT mode with the 2200 being used all the time that there will be a larger difference between the L&R and the Center channel, and the point of HT is the front channels should all sound the same which won't happen any more.
 
Thanks for the educated warning twiii. The guy who had the one on E-Bay sold it to someone else, so I'm just going to wait-and-see right now. The MP-1100 definitely helps the tube sound situation to a great extent, but the MX-121 is still in there. When I've plugged the MP-1100 directly into the MC-275 MkVI and used the variable gain on the MP-1100, the sound is unbelievably fabulous, the best sound I've ever heard out of a home stereo system, especially on some of those old Reiner/Chicago Symphony records.
 
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