Mc-225 & New Issue Tung-sol 7591 first tube failure

apachef1

Well-Known Member
Ok Mc-225 owners I just came across my first new issue tube failure for the Tung-sol 7591A. Just one tube lit up like an orange glow light bulb. Shut the amp down, cooled down the tubes and into the Mighty Mite TT - Dead.
I mean nothing, emissions grid or shorts, the meter only moves a little but the tube did get warm in the tester. Tested the other three tubes, all passed emissions grid and short tests, life test on all three came back as new tubes.

This is a new matched quad purchased a year ago with an estimated 500 hours of burn time. I estimate 8-10 hours a week of listening time so a rough estimation around 500 hours.

Anyone know if this amp can still operate with three tubes, obviously with less power, but operate safely? I ordered a few new tubes, so that will take a few days.
 
I didn't think so, the Mc-3500 can run on one 6lq6 tube or all eight, but a very different circuit, thought I would ask. So i will listen in mono for a few days. Thanks for the reply
 
Actually, it could run on just one tube per channel. All the vintage Mac designs operate with fixed bias, and in Class A in the lower power output levels (up to say maybe a couple of watts or so) -- but just because it can, doesn't hardly mean I recommend it. It's simply to say that there is no particular reason why it won't operate on just one tube -- it just won't develop very much power before distortion sets in.

The failure was no doubt screen grid related. If yours is a version that includes screen stopper resistors, then make sure the 68 ohm resistor is still in tack for the tube socket that tube was in.

Dave
 
Actually, it could run on just one tube per channel. All the vintage Mac designs operate with fixed bias, and in Class A in the lower power output levels (up to say maybe a couple of watts or so) -- but just because it can, doesn't hardly mean I recommend it. It's simply to say that there is no particular reason why it won't operate on just one tube -- it just won't develop very much power before distortion sets in.

The failure was no doubt screen grid related. If yours is a version that includes screen stopper resistors, then make sure the 68 ohm resistor is still in tack for the tube socket that tube was in.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I will get under the amp and take a look. I'm not runing the amp until i get a better look and a new tube to install if everything else is ok.
The real purpose of the thread, I know many 225 owners including myself, are curious about the longevity of the new Tung-sol 7519A tube. I still need to run the tubes in my second 225 through the tube tester and see if there is any issues lurking in the future.
 
A tube tester will certainly help cull out the tubes that are obviously compromised, but typically won't catch the types of hidden issues that can cause the catastrophic failure you unfortunately just had. Case in point for a 225 I just dealt with:

I use a proprietary power output tube tester to test and match output tubes under both typical quiescent and dynamic operating conditions. After set up, the power output portion of the test only lasts ~ 2 seconds: It causes the device under test to attempt passing it's max rated current under dynamic conditions, indicates how much it actually could, which can then correlate into power output produced for large signal dynamic matching. The test could last longer, but there is no need to for the purposes of producing accurately matched tubes. This process then in fact produced a very accurate quad of GE labeled 7591A tubes (even though the Mac doesn't particularly require matched tubes).

In the amplifier however, it was a different story. When testing to confirm full power specifications (a process that lasts longer than just a couple of seconds), one of the tubes would light up like a Christmas tree at full rated power output, and dangerously so at maximum power. It is common for the screen grids of the 7591 family of tubes to indicate some color under such conditions, but nothing like this. No doubt like the tube failure you had, this is invariably due to a misaligned screen grid, that exposes it to more of the electron flow than it should: it is a manufacturing defect. But under normal quiescent (or low power output) operating conditions, certainly in traditional commercial tube testers, or even with the short duration real world test conditions of my tube tester, the condition won't show itself. However, cause the tube to work hard a little longer under real world conditions, and it will. Sure enough, back in the power output tube tester, I let the PO test with this tube continue to run. After about 5 seconds, there was the Christmas tree.

The point is that in tubes with this type of defect, the screen grid is always exposed to excessive current flow. You typically will not be able to see the effects of it under normal use and operating conditions, but it's still happening. Over time, the excessive heat produced in the grid can then cause it to warp, making it a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. At the very least, it will cause the tube to alter its characteristics, or at worst, eventually cause the grid to come in contact with other elements, causing the instantaneous catastrophic event you had occur.

The 7591 represents an awful lot of performance in a very small bottle. As a result, it is not an easy tube to manufacture, and doesn't allow for the same amount of manufacturing tolerance with regards to element spacing that can be had in physically larger tubes like the 6L6 and 6550 class of tubes. Therefore, while all beam power tubes can suffer from this problem, the 7591 is more prone to it than other types. If possible then, besides all the usual precautions taken to cull out the bad ones (mainly buying from reputable vendors), a quick visual check of full power operation with these particular tube types will then provide the best indication of dependable long term performance over time.

Dave
 
The tube lit up in the tube tester at first and then went out as the tube warmed up. I visually checked the inside the amp for signs of heat distress for the socket in question. All looked good, took a good tube from the sister amp, plugged it in and fired off the amp. No problems, no noise amp working fine, will see over time if any other issues develop with this amp/tubes.
 
And you wonder why I got rid of my MA230 after a couple of years. Actually there were two reasons. One having to replace tubes, even the ones Davie supplied, and the sound of the SS front end. I suppose part of the issue could be blamed on the Altec Coronado speakers. If I had my Symphonies I might have kept the 230 longer. 240's were the same way as far as tube consumption. Only the 275's would run close to two years with out tube issues. Back in the day between my Dad listening while I was at school and me listening in the afternoons and evenings we averaged 90+ hours a week. The TV was for news programs only in my house. The 275's had the occasional miniature tube issue as I recall. At the radio station we had a sports reporter that could come into studio one to make his carts for broadcast and spot an amp with an issue long before the rest of us. And he would go to the station manager and I would have to pull the amp and test it and replace tubes until it was right. Some mornings I really hated to see him on the prowl.
 
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The Mac unity coupled amps run the output tube screens from the plate of the opposite tube. This means the screens can/ do go higher than plate in normal operation and will definitely call out defective or poorly QCed tubes for self immolation. These amps won't reliably tolerate anything but the best KT/beam output tubes obtainable.
Re operating with one tube in the output: The push/pull output xformer operates as designed in a zero sum balanced electromagnetically biased state on the laminated core. Single ended amps usually (except for choke loaded amps) have opts designed for an internal magetic bias on the core, different from push-pull where the opposing static fields from opposite tube bias cancel.
Considering all the above factors, operating a push pull amp, and these Mac unity coupled amps in particular, is not advisable for technical as well as sonic reasons.
 
And you wonder why I got rid of my MA230 after a couple of years. Actually there were two reasons. One having to replace tubes, even the ones Davie supplied, and the sound of the SS front end. I suppose part of the issue could be blamed on the Altec Coronado speakers. If I had my Symphonies I might have kept the 230 longer. 240's were the same way as far as tube consumption. Only the 275's would run close to two years with out tube issues. Back in the day between my Dad listening while I was at school and me listening in the afternoons and evenings we averaged 90+ hours a week. The TV was for news programs only in my house. The 275's had the occasional miniature tube issue as I recall. At the radio station we had a sports reporter that could come into studio one to make his carts for broadcast and spot an amp with an issue long before the rest of us. And he would go to the station manager and I would have to pull the amp and test it and replace tubes until it was right. Some mornings I really hated to see him on the prowl.

My last set of NOS WH 7591 black base lasted 10+ years with no troubles, just ran out of usable life. On the surface this appears as an isolated tube QC issue.
 
And you wonder why I got rid of my MA230 after a couple of years. Actually there were two reasons. One having to replace tubes, even the ones Davie supplied, and the sound of the SS front end. I suppose part of the issue could be blamed on the Altec Coronado speakers. If I had my Symphonies I might have kept the 230 longer. 240's were the same way as far as tube consumption. Only the 275's would run close to two years with out tube issues. Back in the day between my Dad listening while I was at school and me listening in the afternoons and evenings we averaged 90+ hours a week. The TV was for news programs only in my house. The 275's had the occasional miniature tube issue as I recall. At the radio station we had a sports reporter that could come into studio one to make his carts for broadcast and spot an amp with an issue long before the rest of us. And he would go to the station manager and I would have to pull the amp and test it and replace tubes until it was right. Some mornings I really hated to see him on the prowl.
Since the Adcom GFA-535 power and specwise is a good long lived stand-in for the monoblock/stereo Mac tube amps, I'm having a hard time justifying making the commitment without a personal long term comparison. I've recapped one of the three I have here and find it utterly unremarkable re euphonic appeal or other singularly identifying characteristics beyond transparent competence. It just simply always works without drawing attention to itself.
I have a strong powerful sentimental aesthetic attraction to all the chrome chassis Mac power amps incl S/S, but on a practical level, they are not the only option, and priorities are priorities.
 
Tubes are not for everyone, They are temperamental at times but over all the Mc-225 is about the quality of the midrange and highs. The 7591 tube has a special sound unlike other power tubes but tends to be a little thin on bass. In comes the Adcom GFA amps as they have the bass. The Mc-225 needs to power an efficient speaker, horn, field coil, small efficient two ways a good option. They are not going to move a multitude of 12 or 15in woofers in a four or five way system, panels, electrostats...
 
I have 2 MC225s. One is my personal one I use almost every day for solid 4/6 hours a day. I alternate with my other favorite amp of all time: my acrosound UL120.
The second is a backup, also with 7591A. It has low tube usage and I will lend it to a buddy of mine for his pleasure.

So far I had no problem, but that doesn't mean I won't.

Dave, the 4x 68R screen resistors will protect the OT in case of a catastrophic tube failure. However these resistors are 1/2W usually old carbon. Would it be advisable to lower the wattage
for those screen resistor to 1/4 watts so they would burn first before the OT takes a hit?

Thank you.
 
Dave--

Not 100% on topic, but do you foresee GE--or any of the US companies--getting back into vacuum tube production, or is the renaissance in tube audio gear/guitar amps too much of a niche market that it doesn't present enough of a financial incentive? My own completely unscientific observation is that McIntosh/Fisher/et al. owners who quite rightly don't want to chance $200 on a quartet of 7591 tubes that "test as NOS" but have cracks in the phenolic bases/corrosion on the pins/no boxes/likely on their 3rd go-around through eBay are trying really hard to talk themselves into the Russian tubes: "You know...these tubes lasted me 3 or 4 years and they aren't all that bad." As we saw, the US & German tubes in my 225 that you just overhauled had been in there since at least 1990 and yet the majority still test strong. There may be exceptions, but by and large, it doesn't seem like the new tubes have nearly the longevity of the older production. Again, my own layman's interpretation is that China & the Eastern European countries are trying to produce tubes as cheaply as possible.
 
Louis has a bunch on BT right now.
No affiliation
I was ogling them but i'm tube rich and cash poor right now.
 
If I may -- I would offer a few things to consider:

1. Absolutely correct -- push-pull output transformers make for lousy single ended output transformers, as they lack the air gap that single ended outputs use to maintain an acceptable level of inductance when the core becomes (necessarily) biased if choke coupling is not used. In this regard however, the Mac output transformer is no better or worse than any other high quality push-pull output transformer design.

2. Regarding the operation of the screen grid and the Unity Couple Output Stage, it is true that the screen grid of each tube is cross-coupled to the plate of the opposing tube. However, this doesn't cause the screen grid of either tube to operate any differently in potential, relative to the other tube elements it operates with, than it does in a conventional push-pull arrangement. As a basic point of understanding then, in ANY pentode connected output stage (which includes the Unity Coupled Output Stage), the screen grid of the tube will ALWAYS operate at a much higher potential than the plate does on positive going control grid signals. This is inherent with pentode operation, and why the pentode connection always delivers the most power from a pentode tube, over any other type of output configuration.

In the Unity Coupled Output Stage, it certainly "appears" that the plate of (say) tube A would drive the screen grid of tube B to a very high level (and visa versa) -- and it does. But at the same time, the cathode of tube B is also being pulled by tube B to a very high level, because its controls grid is being driven positive. Since the cathode and plate windings are unity coupled, and the plates are cross-coupled to the screens, that means that the cathode and screen grid of tube B are rising (or falling) at exactly the same amount, so that at any point between quiescent and full power output conditions, the cathode/screen potential remains constant. This represents an ideal form of pentode operation.

Additionally however, while the cathode and screen grid levels are rising in tube B, its plate voltage is falling -- because again, the control grid of tube B is being driven positive. Therefore, the potential between the plate and cathode has now swung very low, while the screen grid remains at the same potential above the cathode as previously established. This then is no different than a traditional push-pull pentode fixed bias arrangement, where the cathode is held at ground level, the screen grid held at a (hopefully) fixed level above ground, and the plate is allowed to swing very low when the control grid is driven positive. From this then, it will be seen that the real issue that the tubes have to deal with in a Unity Coupled Output stage, is the large heater to cathode voltage that exists under conditions of high power output. With half of each tube's total primary winding signal appearing at it's cathode, and the heater circuit having one side tied to ground, this potential can approach 200 peak volts between these elements under conditions of maximum power output, which the heater/cathode insulation within the tube must be able to withstand.

3. So just how hard is the the Unity Coupled Output Stage on the screen grid of the tubes used in the MC225, 240, and 275 designs? It turns out, not as hard as in conventional pentode push-pull designs.

To a significant degree, in Class AB output stages, it is the loading conditions at the plate of the output tube that determine the amount of heat that the screen grid will dissipate under full power conditions. Numerically higher loads allow the plate voltage to swing lower. If the load becomes numerically too high (as in the load line slipping below the knee of the plate current curve), it makes the screen grid -- at its much higher potential -- a much more attractive element for the electrons to move towards, and greatly elevating it's dissipation level in the process. Conversely, numerically lower loads prevent the plate voltage from falling too low, maintaining the plate as the major target for the electron stream to move towards, and lowering screen grid dissipation accordingly.

Using the MC225 as an example, conventional push-pull pentode operation of 7591 tubes has them typically operating into a 6.6K load plate-to-plate, using fixed bias, with a B+ supply of 450 volts for the plate, and 400 volts for the screen. For this tube, these operating conditions produce a high level of power output and low distortion, but operates the screen grids right at their maximum dissipation rating for speech and music at maximum power output. Countless thousands of Fisher and Scott amplifiers and receivers use these operating conditions in the traditionally designed output stages of their units, advertising 35 watts of power output per channel. But McIntosh deviated from these conditions in the 225.

Mac operates both the plate and screen elements from 400 volts and uses fixed bias, but (in part) because of the 100% feedback factor that exists within the Unity Coupled Output Stage, is able to move the load line to the lowest practical value of about 4800 ohms. This raises distortion significantly, but because of the high feedback factor, that is a moot point. More importantly, as a lower (than typical) numerical load, it lowers the screen grid dissipation at maximum power output to levels lower than those produced in all those Fisher and Scott designs using traditional push-pull configurations, while producing (basically) the same level of power output, but at lower overall distortion. Peak plate current is elevated at maximum power output using this load line, but for typical residential power needs from a unit of this power level, that fact will be lost over time to become rather insignificant.


When these facts regarding the impact of the Unity Coupled Output Stage on the screen grids of the tubes used are then coupled with the reduced quiescent current draw (made possible by the 100% feedback factor), it can be seen then that other than the stout insulation required between the heater and cathode elements of the output tube, the design is really much easier on the tubes than most traditional designs are -- as proven out by the historically documented long lives that most quality tubes live out in these designs. In short then, as long as the screen stopper resistors are in place in a 225, any catastrophic tube events in the Unity Coupled Output Stage will most likely be a tube related event, rather than driven by any inherent hardship that the circuit places on the tubes.

As I have commented to Ivan and he has also commented here, we are about down to the crumbs on the original American 7591(A) pieces, with modern production tubes getting notably better over time, but still lacking the quality control that the best American pieces brought to the table. The 7591 class of tubes are very tough to manufacture well, with tolerances no greater than the thickness of a hair on (hopefully) most of our heads to maintain if target specifications are to be achieved. I would again suggest that along with using only the best vendors to cull out the obvious dead beats; one who will burn the tubes in over time to allow the characteristics of those tubes making the grade to stabilize before matching them up, that a visual inspection of the tubes under full power output conditions will then give the most meaningful indication of how well a tube will last over time. Tubes that notably protest under full power conditions (where normally they should not), will still likely be headed to an early grave even if operated at low power levels, due to the invisible, slow torture of the screen grid operating continuously at elevated temperatures. This then gives rise to the "mysterious" failures that occur after just a few hundred or so hours of use -- a failure that full power testing as part of the final vetting process could likely have prevented.

Dave
 
Gosh, Dave
Your posts always make my head spin: I had to read it 3 times to follow you... :)

I also think that indeed, testing the tube at max capacity is a good test to rule out all manufacturing defaults which if fact should be done at the factory IMO.

But then, you won't cache metal fatigue due to heat/cold cycles, internal pull due to magnetic field, internal mechanical deformation etc.. So failure will happen, sooner or later, old tube or new tube.
The best is to have the right circuitry around to catch those failure and not damage the most important component: the output transformer.

So, the cathode resistors in normal usage only have a few milli-ampere going through, so in theory we could go with only 100 mW resistor, so 1/4 W should be plenty, still a good safeguard?

Thanks
 
The 68 ohm screen stopper resistors? They could in fact be 1/4 watt resistors. At that reduced rating, the amplifier could still develop full continuous power output without any concern of exceeding the dissipation rating of the resistors -- they would only be dissipating 11% of their rating under full power conditions. To that point, they could even be 1/8 watt components for even better protection. And with that, let's let the thread get back to the OP's intended topic.

Dave
 
If I may -- I would offer a few things to consider:

1. Absolutely correct -- push-pull output transformers make for lousy single ended output transformers, as they lack the air gap that single ended outputs use to maintain an acceptable level of inductance when the core becomes (necessarily) biased if choke coupling is not used. In this regard however, the Mac output transformer is no better or worse than any other high quality push-pull output transformer design.

2. Regarding the operation of the screen grid and the Unity Couple Output Stage, it is true that the screen grid of each tube is cross-coupled to the plate of the opposing tube. However, this doesn't cause the screen grid of either tube to operate any differently in potential, relative to the other tube elements it operates with, than it does in a conventional push-pull arrangement. As a basic point of understanding then, in ANY pentode connected output stage (which includes the Unity Coupled Output Stage), the screen grid of the tube will ALWAYS operate at a much higher potential than the plate does on positive going control grid signals. This is inherent with pentode operation, and why the pentode connection always delivers the most power from a pentode tube, over any other type of output configuration.

In the Unity Coupled Output Stage, it certainly "appears" that the plate of (say) tube A would drive the screen grid of tube B to a very high level (and visa versa) -- and it does. But at the same time, the cathode of tube B is also being pulled by tube B to a very high level, because its controls grid is being driven positive. Since the cathode and plate windings are unity coupled, and the plates are cross-coupled to the screens, that means that the cathode and screen grid of tube B are rising (or falling) at exactly the same amount, so that at any point between quiescent and full power output conditions, the cathode/screen potential remains constant. This represents an ideal form of pentode operation.

Additionally however, while the cathode and screen grid levels are rising in tube B, its plate voltage is falling -- because again, the control grid of tube B is being driven positive. Therefore, the potential between the plate and cathode has now swung very low, while the screen grid remains at the same potential above the cathode as previously established. This then is no different than a traditional push-pull pentode fixed bias arrangement, where the cathode is held at ground level, the screen grid held at a (hopefully) fixed level above ground, and the plate is allowed to swing very low when the control grid is driven positive. From this then, it will be seen that the real issue that the tubes have to deal with in a Unity Coupled Output stage, is the large heater to cathode voltage that exists under conditions of high power output. With half of each tube's total primary winding signal appearing at it's cathode, and the heater circuit having one side tied to ground, this potential can approach 200 peak volts between these elements under conditions of maximum power output, which the heater/cathode insulation within the tube must be able to withstand.

3. So just how hard is the the Unity Coupled Output Stage on the screen grid of the tubes used in the MC225, 240, and 275 designs? It turns out, not as hard as in conventional pentode push-pull designs.

To a significant degree, in Class AB output stages, it is the loading conditions at the plate of the output tube that determine the amount of heat that the screen grid will dissipate under full power conditions. Numerically higher loads allow the plate voltage to swing lower. If the load becomes numerically too high (as in the load line slipping below the knee of the plate current curve), it makes the screen grid -- at its much higher potential -- a much more attractive element for the electrons to move towards, and greatly elevating it's dissipation level in the process. Conversely, numerically lower loads prevent the plate voltage from falling too low, maintaining the plate as the major target for the electron stream to move towards, and lowering screen grid dissipation accordingly.

Using the MC225 as an example, conventional push-pull pentode operation of 7591 tubes has them typically operating into a 6.6K load plate-to-plate, using fixed bias, with a B+ supply of 450 volts for the plate, and 400 volts for the screen. For this tube, these operating conditions produce a high level of power output and low distortion, but operates the screen grids right at their maximum dissipation rating for speech and music at maximum power output. Countless thousands of Fisher and Scott amplifiers and receivers use these operating conditions in the traditionally designed output stages of their units, advertising 35 watts of power output per channel. But McIntosh deviated from these conditions in the 225.

Mac operates both the plate and screen elements from 400 volts and uses fixed bias, but (in part) because of the 100% feedback factor that exists within the Unity Coupled Output Stage, is able to move the load line to the lowest practical value of about 4800 ohms. This raises distortion significantly, but because of the high feedback factor, that is a moot point. More importantly, as a lower (than typical) numerical load, it lowers the screen grid dissipation at maximum power output to levels lower than those produced in all those Fisher and Scott designs using traditional push-pull configurations, while producing (basically) the same level of power output, but at lower overall distortion. Peak plate current is elevated at maximum power output using this load line, but for typical residential power needs from a unit of this power level, that fact will be lost over time to become rather insignificant.


When these facts regarding the impact of the Unity Coupled Output Stage on the screen grids of the tubes used are then coupled with the reduced quiescent current draw (made possible by the 100% feedback factor), it can be seen then that other than the stout insulation required between the heater and cathode elements of the output tube, the design is really much easier on the tubes than most traditional designs are -- as proven out by the historically documented long lives that most quality tubes live out in these designs. In short then, as long as the screen stopper resistors are in place in a 225, any catastrophic tube events in the Unity Coupled Output Stage will most likely be a tube related event, rather than driven by any inherent hardship that the circuit places on the tubes.

As I have commented to Ivan and he has also commented here, we are about down to the crumbs on the original American 7591(A) pieces, with modern production tubes getting notably better over time, but still lacking the quality control that the best American pieces brought to the table. The 7591 class of tubes are very tough to manufacture well, with tolerances no greater than the thickness of a hair on (hopefully) most of our heads to maintain if target specifications are to be achieved. I would again suggest that along with using only the best vendors to cull out the obvious dead beats; one who will burn the tubes in over time to allow the characteristics of those tubes making the grade to stabilize before matching them up, that a visual inspection of the tubes under full power output conditions will then give the most meaningful indication of how well a tube will last over time. Tubes that notably protest under full power conditions (where normally they should not), will still likely be headed to an early grave even if operated at low power levels, due to the invisible, slow torture of the screen grid operating continuously at elevated temperatures. This then gives rise to the "mysterious" failures that occur after just a few hundred or so hours of use -- a failure that full power testing as part of the final vetting process could likely have prevented.

Dave
Thnx so much for the explanation, a lot to cover and you do it so well.
 
I bought an MC30 about a year ago from a music store and tested it (ie. transformer continuity using an ohm meter, etc.) and replaced all the bumble bee capacitors with polypropylene capacitors before turning it on. The selenium rectifier was bad so I replaced it with a silicon diode (I think equivalent to a 1N4007 PIV 1000 volts). There's posts here about replacing it with a silicon diode with a resistor in series with it. I tried using a potentiometer (wired as variable resistor) in place of the resistor, but found that 0 ohms was the best setting to get the right voltages in the amp so I took out the potentiometer (in series with the Si diode). I looked at some schematics for the MC225 and it appears to have a solid state diode. I'd check that with an ohm meter (amp off) before trying to use the amp again. Also see
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/mcintosh-hints-kinks-part-ii.560608/#post-7427327
 
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