High End System Building on a Budget

My system has been a real journey for me, and along the way I discovered that good cables make a difference. I pieced it together over the course of 4 years and discarded some gear that I found clashed with my speakers.

I started the journey with a pair of Paradigm Signature S6v2. New, about 5500, bought them used for 3100.
Oppo 95, about 1000 new.
Parasound Halo A21, about 2400 new, paid about 1800.
Parasound P7 pre, about 2300 new, bought used for 1300.
Pro-ject Carbon, about 450
I also spent close to 1000 in Morrow, Audioquest and DIY cables.

I'm really happy with the sound. No need to upgrade, although down the road I'd like to upgrade the speaker and power cables anyway!
 
Forgot to mention--I made my own interconnects, and will be making my own power cables within the next few months. Major savings there to be had, but I realize not everyone has the ability to make their own cabling.
 
I don't think Cutting edge sound systems are available to most folks in todays market place. By definition Cutting eliminates all but current just recently released equipment. $10,000 dollar pre- amps and basic amps, 50,000 to 150,000 dollar speakers and $30,000 dollar and up turntables make climbing the ladder to perfection out of reach of most folks. As fast as you can buy the latest piece a new design is in the process of being just released. Its the definition of cutting edge. And no matter ow high up the ladder you reach some one is adding new rung to climb.

So the thought of cutting edge on a budget is a dream we all wish to aspire, too.
 
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High End is not necessarily cutting edge. Current cutting edge by definition is either new or recent audio technology unless the definition of cutting edge in this forum includes vintage cutting edge which I don't believe it does. The first post of this thread defines High End for the purposes of this thread. I have met that definition with some very good vintage HiFi equipment that is over 20 years old but it is not cutting edge by today's standards.
 
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I'm a believer in vintage cutting edge! In terms of midrange transparency, the first cut, in 1957, is still the deepest!

And the whole point of the thread is that high-end can be achieved WITHOUT the mega-bucks.

The Cutting Edge forum was a rename of Thinking Out Loud, intended to be a safe haven from the "Prove it ain't snake oil!" types. Some all-but-forgotten 1920's technologies are considered cutting edge now, believe it or not, and need not be costly. And some brand new technology sounds far better than it has any right to, when measured by the cost of traditional methods. We've generously assumed that the idea of a sub $10K high-end system is NOT snake oil, and thankfully nobody has come along trying to prove that it is.

:music:
 
I have always used "cutting edge" in a technology-related context.

The cutting edge of a knife is the first and foremost part of the knife to make the cut (and one could argue that the quality of the knife means nothing, as long as it is sharpened).

In technology, I see it simply as the very first (or one of the very first) product of its kind. And that is not always an indicator of quality, although most new products, and improvements on existing products, are always striving to be better than what came before them.

Me? I'm just here to discuss higher-end equipment, which is what I strive for in my primary listening system. I don't care what the forum area is called. (Yes, it could be renamed IMHO, but I think we all understand what it means.) I just like to discuss tweaks, read about higher-end equipment, etc., as that's where I am at in my primary system.
 
I'm a believer in vintage cutting edge! In terms of midrange transparency, the first cut, in 1957, is still the deepest!

And the whole point of the thread is that high-end can be achieved WITHOUT the mega-bucks.

The Cutting Edge forum was a rename of Thinking Out Loud, intended to be a safe haven from the "Prove it ain't snake oil!" types. Some all-but-forgotten 1920's technologies are considered cutting edge now, believe it or not, and need not be costly. And some brand new technology sounds far better than it has any right to, when measured by the cost of traditional methods. We've generously assumed that the idea of a sub $10K high-end system is NOT snake oil, and thankfully nobody has come along trying to prove that it is.

:music:
I'm assuming you are referring to the QUAD electrostatic loudspeaker. There were a few amps then that could do it justice.
 
This system has been put together over the years:
McCormack DNA 0.5 MSRP : $1295.00, bought 6 months old $800.00 -1996
VTL Pre w/ phono stage MSRP : $2395.00, bought one year old $1150.00 -2001
Rega P3 w/Grado Gold, bought new $750.00 special from Holm Audio -2002
YBA Design CD Player MSRP $1500.00 special closeout from Music Direct $850.00 -2008
Beresford Caiman MK II DAC $270.00 - 2014
Speakers:Custom Towers mod/Van L Speakerworks. This is tough as my brother built the cabinet and Van L Speakerworks did the drivers and plumbing: Overall expenditure $1800.00 Van L Value for Insurance: $3000.00 -1998
Cables - $385.00 various years
Total: $6005.00 for a system I am truly happy with.
 
I don't think Cutting edge sound systems are available to most folks in todays market place. By definition Cutting eliminates all but current just recently released equipment. $10,000 dollar pre- amps and basic amps, 50,000 to 150,000 dollar speakers and $30,000 dollar and up turntables make climbing the ladder to perfection out of reach of most folks. As fast as you can buy the latest piece a new design is in the process of being just released. Its the definition of cutting edge. And no matter ow high up the ladder you reach some one is adding new rung to climb.

So the thought of cutting edge on a budget is a dream we all wish to aspire, too.

Cutting edge. On a budget.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#March
 
this is the system i am happy with at this time s.a.e p10 amp , jolida cd player , klipsch cornwall speakers, tube pre-amp . The sound is very nice and the cost was under a thousand dollars. Seek and you will find.
 
Infinity Kappa 6.1 ii--- $ 80 plus $25 for new surrounds $105
Yamaha RX-596 with remote---- $30
Sansui TU-D99X because the Yam tuner SQ sucks--- $50
Technics SL-QD35 Turntable w/ Digitrac 200--- $60
Galaxy S6 with Tidal--- TIDAL $20/mo
 
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These Pure Audio OB's are priced at $3700 so there's plenty left to cover a nice SET amp for the full range Tang Bands and a SS amp for the woofers.

Trio15TB-Open-Baffle-Speakers-by-PureAudioProject-WD.jpg
 
Having a budget means avoiding expensive mistakes that result in dissatisfaction with the result. A strategy or methodology can be very helpful.

The ideal situation is that you hear someone else's system in a room like your own that absolutely pleases you, and when you ask how much it costs it comes under your budget limit... you simply go shopping, get it set up, and enjoy it.

Less ideal is not knowing what the various component options will do, how they'll do it together, and whether that will do it for you. The analytical approach can help narrow the field.

Here is my thinking on how to cut through the combinations and zoom in on solutions. There will still be multiple solutions, but I think this approach clears a good path. Of course there are many other things involved! :)

1] The air in the room

Determine how loud you want to listen to music. Be honest with yourself and decide on an average level that will make you happy. As a guide, consider that the standard reference level at which recording engineers monitor for mastering has historically been in the 86-87dB sound pressure level in the studio control room; this is the level at which they expect the general listener to play music. This is a pretty loud level at which there is no feeling that anything in the music is not present. Some will want to listen louder at 90dB average, and many will be more than happy with 80dB which is a medium level.
Note:
The tonal balance of the recording was mastered while being monitored at studio level 86-87dB, so it is at that level that the bass and treble balance will approach most what the engineer was hearing. If you play louder or softer, you may need to compensate with tone controls to recover that same tonal balance.
The room is going to have an influence on the sound, specifically in the range from about 250Hz on down, and this influence will increase with higher levels of listening. If your preference is louder listening, room treatments are going to become increasingly necessary to preserve the quality of the sound.


2] The music in the air

Music has peaks above its average level. For pop and rock this peak will be up to 12dB for most recordings; for jazz and classical it will be up to 15dB. There are a few specialized recordings that go up to 18dB. These peak levels above the average levels are crest factors.
Note:
Adding the crest factor to your average listening level determines the peak window at which transient will play in the room. For example, if you take a conservative approach and choose a crest factor of 20dB in order to cover all possible music, and choose an average listening level of 85dB, then the top transient peaks window will extend to 105dB.
The peaks window is going to be used to select speakers and amplification in order that the system plays cleanly up through the selected crest factor.


3] The speaker

The speaker must play clean up through the chosen peaks window. If your peaks window tops out at 105dB as in the example, then your speaker must be able to play clean up to 105dB. Many speakers do not sound clean at high levels, so it is important to match the speaker's characteristic in this regard to your needs. This is also one of the dark areas because speaker distortion specs are rarely admitted (because many speakers distort up to 30% when pressing toward the higher levels).

Note:
Some speaker specifications include maximum sound level in dB. Other do not, but provide a maximum average or peak power level. If the dB sound level maximum is provided, this may exclude the speaker depending on your required level. If the maximum power level is provided, the speaker may be excluded from the results due to the required amp power to meet required level (see below).
Listening tests may also exclude speakers auditioned at required listening level.


4] The amplification

The amp needs to be able to power the speaker through its peak window level cleanly. This relationship between the amp and the speaker depends on the amp's rated power and the speaker's rated sensitivity and many combinations will satisfy this, and some will not. Part of the synergy of a system is getting this matching of the amp and speaker correct.
For example, if one's peak window tops at 105dB, and a speaker has a rated sensitivity of 85dB@1W@1m, then the calculation for required amp rated power goes like this:

Subtract speaker sensitivity rating from peak window top
105-85=20
divided by three
20/3=6 2/3 (call it 7)
double one that result's number of times
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 (seven doublings of 1)
So about 128W needed to peak the speaker to 105dB. But since this is a peak measure, divide by the square root of 2 (about 1.4) to get average rated power.
128/1.4= about 90w

Note:
The above is an approximate figure, which is fine; in general all values are being pushed to the conservative advantage so as to always have a strong margin. Since 20dB is a linear factor of 100, the math is convenient... 20dB is a jump from 1 to 100, so 20dB above the 1W sensitivity rating is 100W peak and about 70W average.
The speaker's maximum power capabilities need to be compared to the result of this calculation of required power. Some combinations of speaker and amp will not result in a speaker that can withstand the power required to meet the level desired, or to do so cleanly.


5] The source

Note:
All I know is PHONO, and all I know of that is B&O, so I'll just offer that one must do the best they can and defer to others' wisdom.
 
Very limited options if any to audition open baffles, full range single drivers or SET amps.

It takes a blind leap of faith to purchase sight unseen.

Reminds me of this Robert Frost poem.

"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I
Took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference"
 
My dream system would be as follows.

Infinity Kappa 9s - $1500
Sunfire reference 300 series 2 / biamped 1200x2 =$2400
Used parasound JC2 pre amp- $3000
Marantz SA 8005 sacd player-$1200
New Rega P3 with Cart- $1200

Total is $9300 leaving 700 for cables

Ok I have the speakers can somebody loan me the rest. Lol

image.jpeg
 
I didn’t quite reach the $9,999 budget. I live in Los Angeles, fertile hunting grounds, with high-end dealers often clearing out demos and trade-ins, and a whole range of thrifts/pawns/lawns/fleas/oddballs. This is my current main system, all items in daily use — this doesn’t include anything in closets, garage, under the bed, or phono cartridges in drawers. Newest items ±15 years old, oldest ±35 years. Sources first...

TT — Mitsubishi LT22 linear tracker ($5, flea market Los Angeles)
MC — Fidelity Research FR1Mk3 ($25 nos, foreign trip)
MM — Grace F8L ($10 nos, lawn LA)
DAC — Adcom GDA-700 ($7 Goodwill LA)
TRANSPORT — Panasonic DVD-A7 ($25 pawn LA)
TUNER — Tandberg 3001*
PREAMP — T'berg 3002A*(MM/MC)
POWER AMP — T'Berg 3006A*(150+150W)
SPEAKERS — NHT 2.9 ($175 Goodwill LA — 26Hz–26KHz)
CABLE — Tara, XLO, Kimber, Straightwire, Audioquest ($30, thrifts LA)

$387

*I traded for the T’Berg Pre+Power+Tuner from a dealer in LA in 1990, demo units, barely used. I swapped him a pair of LS3/5A speakers and a SME Series III tonearm. I bought the LS3/5As at a Goodwill in LA for $10, and traded a case of J&B for the SME III overseas. The J&B cost about $100, so the T’Bergs cost me $110. (Sticker price $3.2K in '85, $6.8K '17 $). But I drank quite a bit of the J&B so I don’t really know how to calculate how much I spent versus how much I consumed.

I never used the T'bergs till 2 months ago so they're still almost new. Before I got them, I A/B them to Levinson gear at a store in Beverly Hills — even the dealer agreed the Levinson was no better: "save your money".

The NHT speakers were a real thrill to find. Not a scratch on them. I think their msrp was $3K. I'd had their sub-sat and it was very good, but had no idea if their full-range designs were as good. They are.

This kind of shopping is like a Treasure Hunt, you never know what you'll find

No tubes in the system at present, but I hope to change that soon... Just putting my Luxman CL34 back in the rotation will add a bit of warmth and depth. But that will blow the budget sky-high: the Lux cost $250.
 
Wow some really nice gear with incredible finds. I wish I had something like that around me. Unfortunately all the high end gear around here gets snached up by people that buy all that stuff for a living. Every once in awhile though I get lucky.
 
Coda Continuum Stage Amp- $3000 new- paid $500.

IRA Purist pre- $650 new- paid $300

Marantz 5000 series dvd- $400?

VMPS 626R speakers- $1600 new- paid $650

That's my best system. When I put my vintage stuff in, they don't compete very well but I play those recievers and speakers in my shop system and love em.
 
Bimasta, you are aware that Ken Kantor is an AK member?
Yes, and thanks for the reminder Theophile. I've not contacted him because I really have no questions at this time. The NHT 2.9s are very fine speakers, but not among my all-time loves. I bought them due to price+condition = $175+perfect. No thinking required. What they do well they do very well. Their shortcomings are clear, and I don't think remediable.

So I don't want to bother Ken unless I have clear constructive questions, ideas, suggestions. If he's feeling friendly, and contacts me, I'll be delighted. I'll say what so many others have said, that his products are great, the innovations and attention to detail are impressive, and the quality/price ratio simply remarkable — and I mean original retail price, not my silly thrift-shop giveaway.

But I'm still experimenting, albeit slowly — three fractured vertebrae and 90-pound speakers are no waltz in the park. When I have some thoughts for Ken, I'm sure he'll reply with the insight — and above all the honesty — he has always shown in these pages.

Thanks again ...
 
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