6L6 Class A PP amp, with Fisher TA-800 outputs

kward

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While I wait for the SE OPTs from Edcor to be delivered for my SEUL build, I might as well get going on the design of another amp. I acquired these Fisher TA-800 OPTs a while back and I've been sitting on them for over a year now wondering what I can build with them. These are smallish OPTs, they look like the same size as you'd find in a Fisher X-100C or X-100D. They measure out at 6.2K primary, and I think they are rated at 25 watts output.

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I am targeting 15 watts/channel for this amp, for one thing, because it will be going to my daughter who lives in a small apartment, so we don't want to blast out the neighbors.I also want common tubes to be used so my daughter can easily replace them if necessary in the future.

After some preliminary pencil to paper analysis, I narrowed down the tube choices to 7591 or 7868, EL34, or 6L6. Building around a 7591/7868 would be expected (aka boring), so that tube was eliminated early on. It's been years since I've built around the EL34, and I'd love to try that tube again, but to dumb it down to deliver 15 watts output with these OPTs, I'd need to run it PP class A with 240V plate and 250V screen. That doesn't seem too wise to run the screens at a higher voltage than the plate, so the EL34 was eliminated.

That leaves the trusty workhorse 6L6. To keep the power down in the 15 watt range, I'd also need to run it in class A PP, with 350V delivered to the center taps, and 250V screens. Perfect! The output stage tubes are biased at ~345V plate, 16V differential between grid and cathode, and 70 mA quiescent current.

Running a PP amp in class A is pretty much ideal as far as power supply requirements are concerned, since class A PP output stage will draw constant current from the power supply under any power output conditions. Therefore there is no need to worry about regulation. Furthermore, in a class A output stage, I can run with cathode bias and not worry about AC bypassing the cathode resistor. That makes for a more simple design.

But I wanted some small amount of DC balance adjustment capability. I was going to extract it from the cathode voltage and feed a few volts of it to the grid to allow some DC balance adjustability, but then I realized I have a spare 5V secondary winding, so why not use it to generate a bit of DC bias I can use to balance the stage?

The screens,will get their pseudo-regulated 250V supply from a simple zener shunt mosfet setup.

For the voltage amp and inverter/driver stages, there were two choices I considered: a Dynaco ST70 like pentode/triode frontend, or the Mullard 5-20 like voltage amp and cathode coupled differential pair. I debated on this extensively, but ultimately decided on the Mullard style frontend because the tubes used (12AX7 and 6SN7) are more readily available than the 6U8 I would have used if going with the Dynaco style frontend.

Normally I would direct couple the 12AX7 voltage amp to the 6SN7 inverter, but in this case I didn't quite have enough voltage delivered from the power supply to do it and still bias the two stages where I wanted. I could shoehorn it, but it requires that the 12AX7 idle at a lower current (0.5 mA) than I wanted. So I opted for capacitor coupling and in doing so, I can now run the 12AX7 at pretty much any quiescent point I want. I chose 1 mA, 1V on the cathode, and 137V across the tube. That's a nice linear place on the 12AX7 plate curves. I'll then need to live with the extra time constant and phase shift that capacitor coupling introduces when feedback is applied.

I targeted 0.35 to 0.4V sensitivity. I will need 18 dB feedback to get the sensitivity up to 0.35V, which I believe the Fisher OPTs should be able to handle.

Anyway, that's the design I've got so far. Nothing's been built or even prototyped yet. Pencil to paper says it should perform well. New avenues for me to explore on this build is the class A PP output stage, the combo fixed and cathode bias scheme, and the Fisher TA-800 OPTs.

Should be a fun ride.

Proposed schematic attached.
 

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I'm a bit concerned about bias stability against line voltage, with G2 supply voltage regulated but G1 supply voltage unregulated. This problem is mitigated because most of the bias voltage is from the cathode, so I don't know if it will be significant.
 
I'm a bit concerned about bias stability against line voltage, with G2 supply voltage regulated but G1 supply voltage unregulated. This problem is mitigated because most of the bias voltage is from the cathode, so I don't know if it will be significant.

I was thinking the same thing... maybe move the DC balance to a pot in the output cathodes?
 
Hmm. Help me understand this. So essentially I have regulated plate voltage and regulated g2 voltage. But not really regulated plate voltage with respect to line fluctuations. In any case, people regulate g2 all the time while at the same time extrapolating bias voltage from a tap on the HV secondary. Wouldn't the same problem exist there? Is this a significantly different problem than that?

In any case, there might be approaches to address this:
1. Unregulate g2 by replacing the zeners with resistors to form a gate voltage divider. This would still provide a low impedance source voltage to power the screens, but in this case the screen voltage would follow the line voltage fluctuations.
2. Derive the balance adjust from the cathode voltage, like I've seen on other schematics.
3. Regulate g1. That wouldn't be too hard.
4. Something else?

What is your recommended approach to deal with this issue?
 
I don't think it's a huge problem... worse case is that you wind up running a little hot because if line voltage sags, your bias voltage will be less negative but your screens will stay pegged at 250V. 6L6GCs can take some abuse, so you may not need to really worry about it. But I think that's what Mike is getting at. If you went with pure cathode bias, though, then the outputs would completely self-regulate (additional current flow would lead to additional bias).
 
Plate and grid would swing by the same % so I really don't see where it would be a significant problem. Commercial/industrial amp designs had regulated screens and a conventional unregulated bias supply without any particular problem. As long as you're not running at the ragged edge of meltdown I don't really see a problem, and with those voltages you should be plenty safe.

Never checked the impedance on my TA-600 trafos but I'm surprised they are that low. I'd have expected closer to 8K honestly.
 
Here's another approach I could take, siphoning a little voltage from the cathode to provide some bias and balance.

upload_2018-8-5_10-52-17.png

The thing that bothers me a bit about this approach is adjusting bias also adjusts the voltage available to provide bias. So I'm not sure just how much bias voltage swing this will truly provide. It's a little simpler than the previous approach in that it doesn't need a negative power supply. The positive benefit to this approach, like the previous approach, is if the wipers of either bias or balance pot disconnect in some sort of error condition, it will increase bias and force the tubes to run cooler.

I could also forgo the bias adjust all together (replace the 20K pot and 4.7K resistor next to it with a 10K resistor), and only offer balance adjustment. That would make it even a little simpler.
 
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My TA-600 has been modified with a somewhat similar individual bias setup. All 4 tubes have a common cathode resistor, but the pots tap off that and tickle voltage back into the grid. Adjusting one does adjust them all so it takes a little fiddling to get it all happy but its not that bad. This with a bias/balance per-pair wouldn't be as frustrating I expect.
 
You designers can work out the tech stuff!!! Just a thought on really cheap, available tubes that will fit the schem if you go 6L6s... How about 6BG6s? I find NOS tubes all day long at hamfests etc, for a buck a piece,, and they are good for 19W... I've used them in place of 6L6s in a couple of builds, and other than pin outs and plate caps, they are the same tube...
I'll be following your build closely, as I have a couple dozen of them, and a pair of Fisher 600 OPTs!!
Carry on!!
 
You designers can work out the tech stuff!!! Just a thought on really cheap, available tubes that will fit the schem if you go 6L6s... How about 6BG6s? I find NOS tubes all day long at hamfests etc, for a buck a piece,, and they are good for 19W... I've used them in place of 6L6s in a couple of builds, and other than pin outs and plate caps, they are the same tube...
I'll be following your build closely, as I have a couple dozen of them, and a pair of Fisher 600 OPTs!!
Carry on!!

I think his intention is to use a tube that's easily and commonly available (i.e. "something that guitar amps use directly").
 
Why not do all of the balancing in the cathode circuit directly?
If I understand your idea it's because the pot would need to carry significantly more current if the pot were placed directly in the cathode circuit, which I think would be more prone to noise or failure. But maybe I'm missing what you're describing.
 
Just a thought on really cheap, available tubes that will fit the schem if you go 6L6s... How about 6BG6s?

After I'm dead and gone she'll still be able to still get tubes for it if I base it out for 6L6s. But a 6BG6 does sound interesting...
 
If I understand your idea it's because the pot would need to carry significantly more current if the pot were placed directly in the cathode circuit, which I think would be more prone to noise or failure. But maybe I'm missing what you're describing.

No, that's basically the idea. But if it's a large enough rating / small enough value, the dissipation shouldn't amount to too much, and if the wiper lifts, then the circuit opens completely so no risk to the tubes. I'm thinking large power resistors from the cathodes of each half of the pair to each end of the pot, wiper to ground.
 
Ah. Yes I get what you are describing. My Harmon Kardon A500 does balance adjust that way.
 
I'm a bit concerned about bias stability against line voltage, with G2 supply voltage regulated but G1 supply voltage unregulated. This problem is mitigated because most of the bias voltage is from the cathode, so I don't know if it will be significant.

Great catch.Though, I would go one further- if the G2 is regulated- the BIAS SUPPLY must ALSO be regulated. It's the ratio between G2 voltage and G1 voltage that dominates current through a beam power tube. Regulating one but not the other, is a recipe for bias drift with changing wall power voltage- even worse than if both are unregulated (if bias voltage increases proportionally to screen B+, the change in bias current is very slow to change with changing wall voltage)...

This is why, unless I'm using something like EFB (which completely fixes the relationship between G1 and G2 voltage)- I like to use a stiff, but NOT regulated screen voltage. Something like a gas regulator tube or some Zener diodes wired in series with the screen supply, to drop voltage compared to main B+, is a good way to do this, IME. Acting as a "voltage shifter", it's very low impedance, but still follows the change in B+ (and bias voltage),when line voltage changes.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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I get that problem 100% if I'm building a class AB1 amp. But this is a class A PP amp. I'm just wondering how bad of an issue this is, still, knowing that the plate voltage can never sag in a class A design. I was thinking the only reason to regulate g2 in a class A PP amp is because there is more g2 current flowing on musical power peaks which would cause it to sag just a bit through the filtering network. Stabilizing g2 then would create conditions where the relationship between plate and g2 volts is always constant, at any output power.

Furthermore, in my thinking (which I don't doubt could be wrong), since the negative bias voltage is derived from the same power transformer as the plate voltage, but since the plate voltage won't sag, then the bias voltage won't sag either, at least from the sag source of musical power peaks.

What am I missing?

Yes, you may say I am missing the sag source of line fluctuations. I agree. But I still wonder how much of an issue that really is and if it's worth it to regulate plate, g2, and bias just to address it. Now I'm back to the same old problem as with AB1 PP amps (that being it's expensive and cumbersome to regulate all three), and why EFB is so attractive in THAT case.

I'm not opposed to unregulating g2 (and I'd do it much as you described Gordon, by replacing the zener reference on the fet gate with a simple voltage divider), but it seems to me (perhaps erroneously?) that regulating g2 only, and nothing else, will actually improve things in a class A PP amp over having everything unregulated, for the reason mentioned above.

But again, this is just what I believe given my background. I could be missing some critical piece, or have some flawed logic here............
 
By the way, I'm leaning towards full cathode bias with bias/balance voltage created from the cathode voltage itself (post #7). That reduces the problem to g2 being regulated or not vis-a-vis line fluctuations. (unless I've missed a point in my above post).

It would be easy enough to build a quick outboard g2 dropper and g2 regulator and try it both ways to see which one delivers lowest distortion output. Maybe I'll do that testing as I start to build up the amp.
 
By the way, I'm leaning towards full cathode bias with bias/balance voltage created from the cathode voltage itself (post #7). That reduces the problem to g2 being regulated or not vis-a-vis line fluctuations. (unless I've missed a point in my above post).

It would be easy enough to build a quick outboard g2 dropper and g2 regulator and try it both ways to see which one delivers lowest distortion output. Maybe I'll do that testing as I start to build up the amp.
KW, i think you should trust your instincts and do the build. Mullard style front end has been thoroughly vetted. One mod that i have been using in place of resistor biased cathode is using the LM317T for a fixed current bias. This has positive impact on more power and tighter bass. Although you will need 1 per tube along with a resistor and cap for each power tube.
 
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