846B beater Valencias

[rollcentre]

I found some Valencias locally, I ended up getting them in a trade for a piece of gear. I'm honestly embarrassed of posting a picture of them because they are pretty beat down. 846bs aren't the most attractive either, lol.When I got them I was a little disappointed in the sound when I plugged them into my system. I have a mx110x and mc240 hooked to them. I gave them a day or so to break in and the sound got much better! There is hope! I ended up recapping the original crossovers with my favorite MKPs bypassed with PIOs. Wow! huge improvement there! I popped open the original 806 drivers and found the frams dented in a few places. Bummer that a few of the screws we're stripped and broken off that hold the frams! I PMed DC270 (Doug) and we discussed a few options. I ended up pulling the 806s and found a pair of 808-8a locally being sold with brand new aluminum diaphragms still in the plastic clamshell boxes. I believe this essentially turns then into 802 drivers. I bolted them up to my 811b horns and shoehorned them inside the enclosures. Wow, another great improvement! I think mostly it was the 'frams, but I get a nice airy top and sweet upper mids I didn't get before.

These have been one of those rabbit hole projects, I read thru zilches posts over at Lansing Heritage where he was experimenting with drivers and m19 crossovers. It took a while to get thru the 50-something pages but wow, lots of good information there.

After talking with DC270 I think I may grab a pair of 511bs locally and build a sled for them and place them on top of the cabs. Im thinking that would more or less get me into A7 territory in a more compact way. I have some pretty nice looking custom grilles for these (the only bonus I got lol) I would have everything reverse-able, even though these things can't possibly be devalued more than they are now. It looks like they were hung upside down for a long time, there was big eye bolts on the bottom. Then at some point taken down and set right side up where they sat in a puddle of water... Bashed in corners and it looks like some moron was trying to move them with a handcart and really tore up the bottom edges. ugh. I've got my work cut out for me!

 

[ictwoody]

I believe this essentially turns then into 802 drivers.

You have a great set of parts to work with as you mod, that's for sure. The 802's actually have a larger magnet. They look just like the 806's, but they are deeper. There isn't a HUGE difference in sound though. The 808's should have had symbiotik diaphragms IIRC, so eventually you might want to get a new set of the all aluminum diaphragms from GPA for your 806's... but you're on the right track. The 511B crossed over about 800hz or higher would be a nice improvement over the 811 IMO... but I would look for an Emilar EH800 or EH500 set over either of the Altec horns.

Have fun with the project. And post some pics. We don't care if they are beaters... we wanna see!

- Woody

 

[rollcentre]

You have a great set of parts to work with as you mod, that's for sure. The 802's actually have a larger magnet. They look just like the 806's, but they are deeper. There isn't a HUGE difference in sound though. The 808's should have had symbiotik diaphragms IIRC, so eventually you might want to get a new set of the all aluminum diaphragms from GPA for your 806's... but you're on the right track. The 511B crossed over about 800hz or higher would be a nice improvement over the 811 IMO... but I would look for an Emilar EH800 or EH500 set over either of the Altec horns.

Have fun with the project. And post some pics. We don't care if they are beaters... we wanna see!

- Woody

Hey Woody! Thanks for chiming in. Navigation of the plethora of numerals that make up the different models if these drivers is really confusing to me at times. I was fairly certain that the 802 and 808 shared the same mag structure and the 806 and 807 shared the same mag structure. The only difference being the symbiotik 'frams for PA use vs all frams for studio use. However, I've done so much cramming on the subject i have lost track.

This is what I found so far-
The 808 is longer than the 806, enough so that the driver hits the back panel in the cab and modifications are needed for it to work. I was going to take DC270's recommendation and hole saw a passage where the driver hits and fashion a cover out of plywood so I could use any driver I wanted there without worrying about clearance issues.

I read an old magazine article about modifying A7's for studio and home HiFi use, a lot of the things in there could be applied to the Valencias. IIRC it was a magazine called Sound Practices from 1993. One of the mods they suggested, I did to my 808s. It was to remove the old symbiotik diaphragms and use aluminum ones. Then shorten the three screws holding the frams so you could run them without the acoustic loading plugs. Then you must add a piece of felt to the inside of the back cover. I also removed the bug screens as they suggested too. I don't know if my Al frams are original Altec but they sure look better than the ones in my 806s. Once I get to the right place on these I'd love to send them to Gpa to be recharged and their frams pit in to see what they can really do.

Id also love to try some emilar and renkus drivers at some point too. The EA175 looks pretty neat. The emilar horns are pretty interesting too.

 

[hjames]

I just got a pair of Heath AS-101s - which are basically Valencias, in late December.
I have not done much to them yet, but I noticed they did not go as deep as I'd like, nor as high.
So I did some reading and found that polyfill can make a box seem larger than it is. So,
I took some fiberglass windows screen (non-metal, so it would not short anything if it hit the woofer contacts)
and wrapped it around the open frame of the woofer, so no polyfill would get down inside the woofers.
Then I cut open a pair of old throw pillows and poured the loose fill from one pillow into each of the speakers.
I put the back on and stood them up again and played some songs I knew - I swear it added a good 20-30Hz to the bottom end. Not super low, but you can hear a difference with Daft Punk and Boz Scaggs Dig and other albums that do go low.
I'm figuring on doing a crossover rebuild and some other things to raise the highs later when I get more time.

 

[ictwoody]

My bad... I thought you meant you just took the diaphragms out of the 808's and put them into the 806's... I just misunderstood.

- Woody

 

[rollcentre]

I just got a pair of Heath AS-101s - which are basically Valencias, in late December.
I have not done much to them yet, but I noticed they did not go as deep as I'd like, nor as high.
So I did some reading and found that polyfill can make a box seem larger than it is. So,
I took some fiberglass windows screen (non-metal, so it would not short anything if it hit the woofer contacts)
and wrapped it around the open frame of the woofer, so no polyfill would get down inside the woofers.
Then I cut open a pair of old throw pillows and poured the loose fill from one pillow into each of the speakers.
I put the back on and stood them up again and played some songs I knew - I swear it added a good 20-30Hz to the bottom end. Not super low, but you can hear a difference with Daft Punk and Boz Scaggs Dig and other albums that do go low.
I'm figuring on doing a crossover rebuild and some other things to raise the highs later when I get more time.


View attachment 1113099

That's something I really need to do with mine. Mice really did a number on one of the cabs. Someone went in there and stapled new insulation in the patches that mice displaced, but it's still pretty disgusting. The loose polyfill sounds really interesting! I bet by reducing the amount of insulation it has made the inside a little bigger , and what I hear all that needs to be done is stop reflections inside the cab. I used to work at a race car prep shop and had access to cool materials like the extremely open cell fuel tank foam and Kevlar honeycomb material. We used to use that stuff as packing material! Its way too expensive for me to buy now, I wish I had stockpiled a little bit of it, I'd love to experiment with stuffing cabs with it.

 

[hjames]

No, I left all the existing insulation in the speaker ... I ADDED the polyfill (I don't have an after picture).
Technically, its smaller inside, the polyfill filled in the space around and behind the woofer -
its like the box is maybe 2/5th full.
I did some searching on DIY cabinet makers and auto subwoofer builders - it seems the polyfill changes the apparent size of the space so the cabinet seems larger, which changes how low it can play.
And again, All I did was add polyfill and I got lower notes in some songs I know.

 

[rollcentre]

No, I left all the existing insulation in the speaker ... I ADDED the polyfill (I don't have an after picture).
Technically, its smaller inside, the polyfill filled in the space around and behind the woofer -
its like the box is maybe 2/5th full.
I did some searching on DIY cabinet makers and auto subwoofer builders - it seems the polyfill changes the apparent size of the space so the cabinet seems larger, which changes how low it can play.
And again, All I did was add polyfill and I got lower notes in some songs I know.

View attachment 1113237

Oh wow, I need to try that! Thats something I can practically do for free. I could probably take a wad of poly fill from every cushion and pillow in the house without anyone noticing. J/k! Also I'm pretty jealous of how clean the inside of your cabinet is! Just curious, Is the Heathkit a 8ohm or 16 ohm system? Also, is the enclosure ported?

 

[hjames]

Oh wow, I need to try that! Thats something I can practically do for free. I could probably take a wad of poly fill from every cushion and pillow in the house without anyone noticing. J/k! Also I'm pretty jealous of how clean the inside of your cabinet is! Just curious, Is the Heathkit a 8ohm or 16 ohm system? Also, is the enclosure ported?

Thats exactly why I tried it - its basically a free "hack" ... with a good improvement!
8 Ohm speakers - and - the cabinet is "ported" at the outer edges of the horn - those folded pieces of insulation are "covering" the ports
(they are not round ports like JBLs and other Altecs might have)

 

[rollcentre]

Neither original Altec or GPA diaphragms come in a plastic clamshell box. However, some cheap imported diaphragms alleged to fit Altec come packed that way. A lot of them are pretty cheesy, they will sound nothing like a proper Altec or GPA diaphragm, and many don't fit and align right without a good degree of fiddling. No free lunch when it comes to diaphragms. You really need to spring for the genuine articles if you want to give your speakers a fair evaluation.

That's what I was thinking, the funny part is the diaphragms that were in the 806s are even worse, I think they might actually be knockoff titanium ones, they are more of a dull grey color than shiny silver. They didn't have any of the airyness in the upper mids I heard in other Altec systems. When I get to a place where I have these in better shape I'll treat them to nice GPA frams. I'll also call Freeman-Tuell to see if they have any originals.. ya never know.