A really good article about vinyl, digital files and cd's

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Tim64, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    and going further 24 bit can be as low as 120 db from the max signal level (gets to be DAC chip and circuit design involved). Good vinyl has been measure 50-60 db - that is a HUGE difference.
     
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  2. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    I do some ripping vinyl to 16bit 44.1khz files using Audacity and a Behringer ADC and even though the Behringer is a cheap model I would have a damn difficult time choosing which one is playing. This is an interesting comparison because the music is being reproduced using the same equipment (stylus, TT, etc) and the same exact source copy so if there were any differences in digital it would seem likely show up here. Too bad I can't do the reverse, press a vinyl record from a CD I own and compare it that way. Wonder how it would compare?
     
  3. awillia6

    awillia6 Super Member

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    From the OP's cited article:

    In 1968, a 23-year-old audio engineer named Bob Ludwig at New York's A&R Recording was asked to create a test pressing of The Band's debut, Music From Big Pink, so that the producers could hear what it would sound like on LP. During the process, he especially tried to preserve as much as possible of the deep low end of the band's sound, which he believed was critical to its music.

    But when he heard the final LP that was released, he was stunned. "All the low, extreme low bass that I knew was there, was chopped right off."

    Years later, when Ludwig was hired to provide the final edit (known as mastering) for a greatest-hits package for The Band, he got the album's master tapes back from Capitol Records. On the box was a note from the cutting engineer who'd made the original vinyl master, saying the album's extreme low end had to be cut out.
     
  4. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    And yet Monty and his sillyscope don't have the remotest clue about the audible effects of brickwall filters necessitated by the crude, 1980 technology limited Redbook standard.

    Fortunately, the recording industry ignores such ignorance. I'm particularly enjoying John William's latest film score mastered in 192/24.
     
  5. DaveVoorhis

    DaveVoorhis Super Member

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    If you know of an equally or more accessible video introduction to digital audio that addresses your concern, I'd be pleased to link to it from now on.
     
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  6. hnash53

    hnash53 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I did a similar thing where I synchronized a Spotify tune (320kbps) with the same LP tune,... and then switched back and forth. I admitted to myself that the vinyl sounded more pleasing to me. But... It did not move me to vinyl. Why? Most of the stuff I listen to is digital, and most of the stuff I listen to is NOT ON VINYL. And I appreciate the uber convenience of digital streaming... as well as the ease in which I can discover new music.

    If the music I listen to was also on vinyl, it might be a different story.

    It's all good ! ! !
     

     

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  7. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    Or choice B, follow the advice of the best recording engineers and actually listen to some high resolution recordings.

    Maybe you'll understand what they and many listeners already do.
     
  8. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    Understandably using lossy content with much resolution and dynamic contrasts thrown out the window.

    As do I. Just don't cripple the experience with lossy content.
     
  9. DaveVoorhis

    DaveVoorhis Super Member

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    That doesn't appear to be relevant here. I linked to the videos in my post above -- as I've done several times in the past -- because they're an effective introduction to digital audio, particularly for those who appear to be unfamiliar with it or when common misconceptions are stated. For example, I might link to the videos if someone claims there are "steps" in the audio output or that digital audio is less accurate than analog because it "misses" the signal between the samples. I didn't link to the videos to make a point about high resolution vs Red Book resolution digital audio.
     
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  10. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    Naturally because your exposure to high resolution recordings is zilch.

    A *video* about the advantages pales in comparison to actually experiencing the difference.

    Perhaps one day you'll might well listen to some. ;)
     
  11. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    Guys - don't talk AT EACH OTHER. You are both right .....
     
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  12. DaveVoorhis

    DaveVoorhis Super Member

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    Clearly, I have upset you in some fashion. Would it help to know that I have some high resolution recordings I've downloaded and some I've made?

    I have listened to them, sometimes repeatedly. I hope knowing that I have done so helps to emolliate your obvious disaffection.

    However, what does that have to do with linking to videos that effectively and clearly explain how digital audio works?
     
  13. Tim64

    Tim64 Super Member

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    What I like is it does not discredit any media but points out the strengths and weaknesses of all formats and why some prefer one over another.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  14. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    Upset? I'm smiling from ear to ear. Would that be from your "clutter of sub-par sound systems"?

    Better most certainly exists.

    Simply observing what Monty fails to understand. Do you understand how brick wall filters affect the phase relationships of the signal? With the crude Redbook standard, you can either have rolled off top end or pre and/or post ringing. Which audible artifact do you prefer?

    As for me, I prefer neither. :)
     
  15. hnash53

    hnash53 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Lots of people say they can't hear any difference. Perhaps if I was 40 years younger with no hearing loss, I could say otherwise.

    When I listen, I find the experience ANYTHING BUT "crippling." Others have a different experience.
     
  16. Tim64

    Tim64 Super Member

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    When I had my Phillips cd recorder I would record LP's and really you could not tell the difference between the two. Had a Shure V15 III on the Lab 400 TT.
     

     

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  17. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    Why would you hear a difference? You are recording an LP, it should sound exact as an LP - it is the same as recording onto a cassette tape. the LP copy should be the same as your CD recorder - you are dealing with the limits of vinyl.

    If you want to compare than you need to have a CD and LP from the same master - that is the best comparison.
     
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  18. E-Stat

    E-Stat Addicted Member

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    I find the best digital superior to vinyl in every respect. Note the qualification.
     
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  19. DaveVoorhis

    DaveVoorhis Super Member

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    Apparently, my self-deprecatory humour was too carelessly mismanaged by Yrs Trly for you to appreciate the subtleties. My apologies; it's my fault for not expressing myself clearly.

    Again, the next time I see someone express simple misunderstandings about digital audio, I'd be delighted to post a clear, easy-to-understand, and fun video that explains digital audio without raising your concerns about Monty's presentation. Please send me the link!

    In the absence of a suitable alternative, and compared to the value of Monty's video for introducing the basics, I consider Monty's apparent failure to reveal the limitations of brickwall filters to be of negligible concern. I will continue to post them as an excellent introduction to digital audio.
     
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  20. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    Well my only point was that if a CD sounded worse from vinyl it would seem to show up in a recording from vinyl, compared directly heard with identical equipment, cartridge, phono stage, etc. It Doesn't answer if the CD does better with bass than vinyl, only if it sounds worse due to some shortcomings of the CD. In my recordings I cannot tell the difference.

    If however I were to manage to find the same master in both vinyl and CD and compare those, they could and probably would sound different due to the sonic characteristics of my cartridge, phono stage etc as well as different pressings which would leave one having to wonder exactly what was causing the difference.

    Of course my DAC might color the sound some as well so there is that, and it wouldn't answer whether the CD sounds better ultimately because by recording from vinyl the best it could achieve is the same. Only if the CD sounds worse could anything be derived.
     

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