Accuphase vs.Pioneer

Unlike most manufacturers, Accuphase can replace almost every part from every product since day one. There are a few exceptions, but I've even had replacement knobs, pots and PCBs sent from Japan for some of their earliest products.

The attention to detail even on the spare parts boxes had to be seen to be believed. I've kept one in particular for a C-11 preamplifier where they packed the motorised alps blue pot and the 200g (or so) solid aluminium volume knob in bags, foam, internal boxes, nestled in very soft spaghetti-like foam and then topped off like a box of chocolates.

The address, customs and postage labels were perfectly placed and the packaging tape was like gift wrapping. I felt bad opening the box! :)
Interesting how Accuphase split off from Kenwood in the early 70's as I understand it from a disagreement as to quality of product line. Today Accuphase is still in their same game, making amplifiers (beautiful ones at that!) and Kenwood? Not so much. Just car audio and radio communications. Looks like as a business plan, of these 2 companies, the one that went high end at the start and stayed that way was the more successful one over the long run.
 
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Take the au-111 my first taste of tube sound as far as stereo equipment. The music was very clear coming thru the speakers. And it stayed that way no matter how loud it got. No distortion that I could hear. I was blown away at how loud a 40 watt tube amplifier could sound. I have ran HF tube amplifiers and transceivers for years. And can tell you that tubes at leased to me sound better and have better output then transistors or mosfets. Maybe I just answered my own question and should look at buying tube gear. But that can be so expensive.
 
I am thinking about buying a Accuphase P-300 amplifier. I have owned a Pioneer SX-1980 receiver and really enjoyed the sound quality. Can I except to get the same quality or better from the Accuphase P-300? I know the wattage will be lower. Thanks,

I´ve searched throught your posts and was not able to find what is your pair (or are your pairs) of speakers. IMHO the matching between speakers and amp is a varible that should be put into the game. For example, more powerful speakers tend up to match well with sealed cabinet speaker designs.
 
Maybe I just answered my own question and should look at buying tube gear. But that can be so expensive.
Here on AK, your situation is called the "rabbit hole". And all our "help" just adds to the confusion. Good tube gear needn't be expensive, since you're willing to buy second-hand. I've never heard the less-pricey Chinese tube amps, but many rave about them.

The expense comes when replacing tubes, especially power tubes — and especially now, when the great vintage tubes are all gone or cost a fortune, and the new ones are chancey at best. But small signal tubes can last a long time — I'm using Telefunkens in my Luxman preamp that are at least 40 years old and are very used — still sound glorious and dead-silent. The combination of that tube preamp into my Tandberg power amp is divine. A lot of people go that way, tube pre with SS power. It has a lot to recommend it — performance, power, and price.
 
If nothing else, separates carry a significant advantage in that if something goes on the fritz, it's usually a lot less cumbersome disconnect and remove a [usually smaller & lighter] component for servicing as opposed to an 80 lb receiver. Since a receiver is basically three components in one, that's theoretically three times the opportunity for something to need repairs. The more complicated the beast, repairs can be expected to be higher on average, especially if rare out-of-production parts are needed. I would also imagine an SX-1980 a bear to package and ship safely if local services are not available.

As to sonic performance it's difficult to say what sonic advantages will be but it's generally accepted that manufacturers tend to put the best they have to offer in separates.
 
Interesting discussion, before and after the purchase decision. Folks saying you don't need power for a small room. I don't agree with that. Compared a 25 wpc tube amp to a 45wpc tube amp and the bigger amp had better bass probably because of the bigger power ability even though the amps were not being played that loud. Need proper power for what you want to hear and since it takes 10 times as much power to play it twice as loud power gets burned up quickly. Having power is a good thing no matter the room size. I had 60wpc in a kids bedroom, 155wpc in a 12x12 room and in both cases used all of it and more. Just depends on whether you want background music or nice solid room filling music. Also depends on the speakers used but most are below 95db sensitivity and require some juice to run.

Then we get to all the comments about the Accuphase and how much better it is than the majority of the gear out there that was filling the stores back then. It is just a power amp, a well built one with a good reputation for sound quality so it is probably better than all the receivers from back then. The receiver was a bread an butter product with the separate components where the company really put the money to make statement pieces. The separates really do perform better.

Finally, we get the post that the op is not going for the accuphase after nearly everyone said go get it. This leads me to ask what it is that edman is trying to do. He mentioned the Concept totl receiver and folks seem to like it (don't see em on the east coast much so I have no experience) but the whole thread doesn't have any indication as to what edman wants at this point. Maybe some discussion about this and folks could recommend if he wants group approval for his rig. He would have gotten a majority of approval with the accuphase with a few detractors picking other units. But we'll have to wait to see where this goes.
 
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I never heard a good receiver better a good integrated, and never heard a good integrated better good separates. It should be possible and I'd love to find that receiver. But maybe the benefits of independent purpose-designed power supplies and separate casework just can't be equalled.
 
To paraphrase John Curl, 'you may be measuring the wrong thing'- I mean even if it sounds good. Because if it isn't transparent, it isn't accurate. Those that qualify leave you speechless. Sound quality has no price tag.
 
As to the question of do you need 150 wpc in a small room, my personal opinion is yes. The Allison Twos in my living room have been driven by everything from a 45wpc Onkyo A5 when my dad owned them to the 300 watt each Kenwood L-09Ms that are currently feeding them. I don't listen to them any louder than I did when I was in high school with the Onkyo, but they sound so much better with the added power of the Kenwoods than they did before. Just for the record the Allisons have been driven by that same A5, an HK Citation 16, a Citation 22, and the L-09Ms since they've been in my possession and I've never once thought they needed less power. Get the most powerful amp you can afford or want and you'll never regret it. Will I ever use 300 watts continuous per side? Definitely not, but there are definite advantages to having more grunt than you need. Once again just my .02.
 
I sold everything stereo related about 6 years ago. Went into ham radio. Like a lot of people I regret selling everything. The Pioneer sx-1980. I bought from a member here for $2700 back in i believe in 2011. Came with the manual and box. Forward 6 years later I go to look at prices and could not believe how much one is going for now. I miss this hobbie so much. You see back in 2010. I had to have back surgery that left me disabled for life at the age of 48. So I needed some kind of hobby to keep my sanity. Took up music and ham radio. Like a dummy I then sold my stereo gear biggest mistake ever. So with what little money I can spare to put together and a lot of knowledge from the nice people here on the forum . I would love to put together a nice sound system. I am even thinking about selling my 88 iroc camaro with 7,333 original miles to go towards building it. Roadrash I am with you on the wpc. Just one question. Would you say that you have found the type of sound system you have been wanting to put together?
 
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Also, bear in mind, in the Japanese high end audio business. There is one Japanese company which has survived and still has stability. That company is Accuphase. They're the main survivor of the Japanese economic crisis. Everyone else in that field has closed, or merged, or bought out.

I would also point out Luxman as a high end Japanese survivor, although it was owned by Alpine at one time and is now part of the International Audio Group.
 
Luxman today is not Luxman 10 years ago, nor owned by the same people or Luxman 20 years ago. Luxman has changed hands quite a few times, some of their gear was high end, but not all of it. And they've been in and out of the market several times. Accuphase is still ran by the people who founded the brand, has never changed hands. And still builds gear to the same standard always, the Japanese McIntosh in that aspect.
 
I would also point out Luxman as a high end Japanese survivor, although it was owned by Alpine at one time and is now part of the International Audio Group.

And you forgot Samsung in between, and several years out of the market along the way, and Luxman also became bankrupt as well. Accuphase is still owned by the same owners who founded it, builds only top of the line, price is no object equipment. And never changed hands, or went bankrupt. I rest my case.
 
Most likely for any sonic improvements/differences between the receiver and the [newer] power amplifier to be due to the age of older equipment where critical components have drifted out of spec as opposed to that when both units are operating 100% to factory spec.
 
Guiller I sold everything stereo related about 6 years ago. Went into ham radio. Like a lot of people I regret ever selling everything. The Pioneer sx-1980. I bought from a member here for $2700 back in i believe in 2011. Came with the manual and box. Forward 6 years later I go to look at prices and could not believe how much one is going for now. I miss this hobbie so much. You see back in 2010. I had to have back surgery that left me disabled for life at the age of 48. So I needed some kind of hobby to keep my sanity. Took up music and ham radio. Like a dummy I then sold my stereo gear biggest mistake ever. So with what little money I can spare to put together and a lot of knowledge from the nice people here on the forum . I would love to put together a nice sound system. I am even thinking about selling my 88 iroc camaro with 7,333 original miles to go towards building it.
You don't have to spend a ton of cash to get a real nice system together, I have way less in my L-series Kenwood stack than it usually sells for. I was in the right place at the right time on the amps, and watched for deals on the pre and tuner.
 
Great point NJ. But it doesn't apply to my experience with the P300. In my system at the time, the P300 was the weak link. I emphasize "my" experience, "my" system.

I had a friend over for a music evening. He played Viola in the Berlin Philharmonic for 17 years, under a dozen different conductors. His ears are different. After an hour or so, he noticed my little Cary 2A3 sitting on the side. "Can I hear that one?" I hooked it up, and within minutes he said "My God! How can you even listen to that big silver one?"

Just for the record, I wasn't inferring.
I've seen small tube amps better big SS.
I had a beautifully restored and upgraded GAS Son of Ampzilla .
I really wanted to love it but I found it harsh.
I also had an MC352. I truly wanted it to be the last power amp I bought (I liked it better than the gas).
The fact that it's no longer here says something.
I had a GAS Thaedra (also restored and upgraded and thought it was better sounding than the C200.
In fact I think my pas 3 restored but stock circuit is more enjoyable than the c200.
To be fair the c200 is quite Good! (Also retored). You are sort of in the deeper end of the pool and at some point taste, synergy and even musical taste come into play.
 
And you forgot Samsung in between, and several years out of the market along the way, and Luxman also became bankrupt as well. Accuphase is still owned by the same owners who founded it, builds only top of the line, price is no object equipment. And never changed hands, or went bankrupt. I rest my case.

Yes, companies and names come and go. Luxman gear today is some great gear. Accuphase is the same company and their gear today is in the same league it seems. How much does this matter?

From looking back the 70s Luxman gear has horrible service manuals compared to Pioneer manuals. What will be the case in 25 years finding a service manual for newer gear? IDK, seems companies are keeping this intellectual property under lock and key to some extent.

Looking at the dealer selling the gear, one local dealer will not handle a product line unless the company has been in business for decades. This probably means they will not take on Luxman but would Accuphase. They have a number of great lines so there are a number of brands that have been in business for decades making higher end gear.

I might put a purchasing decision about these intermittent companies on the availability of service information for the unit I was considering which would be for new gear. Used gear you kinda take what you can get as far as this newer gear is concerned.
 
@edman, here is what I can recommend. Figure out the kinds of music, the style of listening, volume you like, size of the room and limitation on the gear.
for example if you like both kinds of music, country and western and want to listen to one as a concert in your home but the other as a quieter close-your-eyes and enjoy the image of the performance in a room that is 25x7 but must have speakers that are no bigger than a breadbox, let us know all that.

I would think that you could get what you need from deals in Barter Town. $25 for a year of access to the classifieds can get you quite a bit of opportunities for all kinds of gear. Let me warn you though, if you post a wanted, 30wpc integrated amp less than 200 bucks you will be flooded with damn near any piece of gear that has a plug on it, power from 6wpc to 300 wpc and priced from cheap to your budget to 1000 bucks. Your request just rattled the cages of those that might think about selling something.

But with your current budget of 1700 in a week or so and I'm guessing nothing to use right now there are lots of possibilities. Without any idea of what you want the gear to do it is impossible to recommend something.
 
Get the most powerful amp you can afford or want and you'll never regret it.
At the same time, less power can mean better sound. Your L-09Ms are exceptional, Roadrash (I know, I have a pair) but sheer power doesn't equate to beauty. A tech explained it to me once. A lower-power amp can be simpler, and the simpler the circuit the cleaner the sound. He said with very high-power amps, so much extra circuitry is needed to control the power that SQ can suffer — not impossible, but challenging and expensive. He was very detailed and convincing, but it was a long time ago and I only remember the gist.

Sorry about your back Edman. I have severe back problems and sometimes the pain... well, that needs no elaboration. Surgery is the only solution but surgical outcomes are so unpredictable. I don't know whether to tough it through as is, or take the risk. Surgery has three possible results: it will be better, or the same, or worse. Only one is a good result, and 2–1 odds against are not good odds.
 
Over the past 30-or-so years, the American High End, which targets the 1% (or 3% or whatever) has distorted the value-scale and created a faux "royalty" in audio gear, beyond the reach even of the mere aristocracy.

Kent's point ("Never sold in the USA ever") adds to the exclusivity, they were too good for Americans, we're incapable of appreciating them — Pioneer even named them Exclusive but it might as well have been "Too good for US".

I wouldn't be surprised if the Denon monos Ampman mentions are as good as other 50K amps, but the Denon brand can't support the weight of such pricing. SQ is a small part of the perceived value, status is a bigger factor. Your audio system must reflect glory on you. When my billionaire friends visit me and see my Denon DP80, they say "Oh God what happened? Were you wiped out in the '08 crash? Are your off-shore accounts still OK?"

This is nothing new. There were at least two #1 Bestsellers about this in the 1960s, The Affluent Society and The Status Seekers — and Veblen got there a century earlier with "conspicuous conception": it's not enough to be wealthy, flaunt it so the world will know you're wealthy.

The P300 enjoys some of this status because of its name. It's a good amp, but far from royalty. It should be called Kenwood. Accuphase was started by ex-Kenwood designers who left after Kenwood made their great L-Series, then retreated back into consumer-fi. They even called their new company Kensonic, Accuphase was just a model name for its first products (Pre/Power/Tuner).

But Accuphase is a better name, so they stuck with it.
Ime, the Brits made/make the most musical and transparent amps. But I will temper that sentiment with the fact(imo) that Acoustat came up with the undisputed transparency champion in the direct drive servo charge OTL mono coupled to their Monitor 3 or 4. Nothing competes with a directly driven ESL. The disadvantage is that they are massive.
 
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