Alcohol leaches plasticizers in vinyl and alcohol cleaning record cleaning FUD

C

Cosmo-D

Active Member
Every time I post somewhere about cleaning records (the solution I use was recommended by the manufacturer of my RCM and is isopropyl alcohol, water, with a drop of dish soap) invariably someone responds with the claim "alcohol leaches plasticizers from vinyl". I find this claim dubious, but I'd like to see it addressed so as to reduce the FUD around cleaning vinyl records.

Firstly, I am not a chemist. I have taken one university level chemistry course and that is the level of my expertise. However, I still find this claim about leaching doubtful. Isopropyl (or any other commonly used alcohol) couldn't interact with the composition of PVC for the same reasons that oil and water don't mix.

Water and alcohol are polar molecules. They have a positive and negative end to them. The attraction between the positive and negative poles is what keeps water molecules together. The polar nature also allows them to dissolve (or pull-apart) other polar compounds. Alcohol dissolves in water and vice versa.

Plastics and oils are not polar. They are held together by what is called van der Waals forces. Basically polar molecules like alcohol and water can't disrupt the forces that hold oil or plastic together—which is why oil and water don't mix.

Obviously, this is a huge simplification, but it forms the theoretical basis for why you probably don't need to worry about using alcohol on vinyl records. I specify vinyl because alcohol will damage shellac 78s and also acetate DJ pressings. Those however are not vinyl. Also, I would be hesitant to use non-polar solvents on a vinyl record. I wouldn't try to clean a vinyl record with lighter fluid, turpentine, white/mineral spirits, WD-40, or anything used to dissolve oil. Perhaps some of these are safe to use on vinyl records, but coming from a theoretical standpoint it isn't a good idea.

I'm also not going to try any strong acids or bases—although Drano (sodium hydroxide) might not harm vinyl (I've done lab experiments with sodium hydroxide and it is very dangerous stuff).

Any chemists out there who can confirm on deny what I've said? I've never made any polymers, so I could be wrong. From chemistry standpoint it seems like there is little reason to think that isopropyl alcohol (or similar) will damage vinyl (just vinyl—don't use it on records that aren't vinyl) records.
 
Cosmo-D said:
Every time I post somewhere about cleaning records (the solution I use was recommended by the manufacturer of my RCM and is isopropyl alcohol, water, with a drop of dish soap) invariably someone responds with the claim "alcohol leaches plasticizers from vinyl".
Click to expand...

Lots of unsubstantiated theory out there....

Read and ignore, no need to get all worked up.

Go and hunt for some direct to disc album instead. :music:
 
Well, I use practices to dis-spell things like this. I've been using an alcohol based cleaner on my records for 50+ years with zero detectable deterioration of the vinyl medium. Therefore, at least to me, the theory has no credibility. Anyone can make claims when no one has to prove them......
 
I spent a lot of hours reading the threads on AK and elsewhere. One of the claims that I read about alcohol that made sense to me, aside from any other reason, was that unless it was medical grade(or pure?) alcohol, it would leave a residue. This comment was made by some curator of records at the Smithsonian or Library of Congress or something. This person said nothing about damaging or leaching, or anything else, just that if it were not high grade enough it would leave residue. I choose not to use alcohol myself, but routinely buy used records at a shop that, unless they have changed their method, clean their records with straight isopropyl alc and a cotton ball.
 
It’s a good situation to bring up because too many people are sharing fallacies like they are facts, then you have a newb that believes them. This site should be about defining facts, people come to this site as the best source of factual information concerning audio. Anyone with an objective train of thought knows that the elements that make up alcohol can’t dilute the elements that make up polymers after they have gone through a high heat process of creating a covalent bond.

That’s like saying water can have an effect on concrete after the combined elements making concrete have hardened...
 
WaynerN said:
Well, I use practices to dis-spell things like this. I've been using an alcohol based cleaner on my records for 50+ years with zero detectable deterioration of the vinyl medium. Therefore, at least to me, the theory has no credibility. Anyone can make claims when no one has to prove them......
Click to expand...
That's good enough for me!!
 
I have a pretty significant chemistry background--advanced degrees and a previous work history in the chemical and pharmaceutical industry.

Donal64 said:
One of the claims that I read about alcohol that made sense to me, aside from any other reason, was that unless it was medical grade(or pure?) alcohol, it would leave a residue.
Click to expand...

Ask anyone in a laboratory about the significance of purity, and you will validate your assumption. I make my own record cleaning solution using distilled water, 91% isopropyl alcohol and technical grade Triton X-100 nonionic surfactant. All are food/pharmaceutical grade products and readily available.

Rubbing alcohol formulations include IPA, but also frequently contain fragrances, colorants and other additives (like menthol or oil of wintergreen) that could potentially leave a residue. A lot of folks like to use dish soap or laundry detergents as their surfactant which also contain coloring agents, fragrances and anti-static cationic surfactants (fabric softener) which can leave a residue--why do you think your clothes can still feel "soft" and smell "fresh" 3 weeks after washing? But, the active ingredient (detergent/surfactant) in dish soaps and laundry detergents are generally (almost always) one of the Triton or Tergitol series of nonionic surfactants--just diluted and saddled with additives. From a safety perspective, these surfactants range in use from industrial cleaning solutions, fracking solutions, mining processing to dish and laundry soaps,shampoos and body washes and even your flu shot and other vaccines.

Distilled water = virtually 100% pure H2O--far purer than tap water or even filtered water. 91% IPA = medical grade with no additives--91% IPA, 9% distilled water. Technical grade Triton X-100 surfactant = food/pharmaceutical grade purity (generally >99% pure). Regarding the advantage of distilled water over purified or tap water, put some of each in a pan on your stove and boil it dry--see which ones have substantial residue left.

I have seen no documented evidence that IPA does damage to vinyl formulations used in the manufacture of lps. If it were that potent of a solvent against plastics, how could it be shipped, stored and sold in plastic bottles?

In a cleaning solution, water acts as both a solvent and a carrier to dissolve some crud and to carry away crud that is released from the surface. A surfactant "makes water wetter" by reducing surface tension and allowing the water to fully penetrate to the substrate being cleaned (i.e.--get down into the fine grooves of an lp or the fine weave of a fabric). IPA is a solvent capable of dissolving organic crud--like oily fingerprints or nicotine residues. IPA also acts as a drying agent, since it has a much higher vapor pressure than water--it evaporates (dries) quicker.

Some cleaning formulations also include a flocculant. A flocculant is a cationic molecule (either multivalent metallic based, or long chain polyacrylamides) that bind together the extremely fine particles suspended in water. Often referred to as coagulants, they glue together the smaller particles to form larger ones that can be filtered out (in the case of water treatment) or be deposited as a sediment that can be cleaned up/removed. This is the stuff they use as clarifiers for pools and hot tubs, as well as drinking water and wastewater treatment.

Spin Clean uses a flocculant in their cleaning solution--that's why if you clean a bunch of records and the water gets murky, all you have to do is wait a couple hours or overnight and the water will be clear and there will be sediment on the bottom of the tank. You could actually get several uses out of a batch of solution by decanting off the clear liquid, cleaning the sediment out of the tank and then putting the old solution back in--might need to "freshen it up" a bit with a little more fluid, but as long as the crud is gone and won't get stirred up, the solution is still viable.

Although many feel it is not necessary, I always perform a final rinse with straight distilled water to wash away any crud that has been released from the surface, but still sitting there just waiting to be "dried" back onto the clean surface. If, when performing this final rinse, you still see the record just looking "wet", then there is still surfactant on the surface--water will "bead" on a truly clean vinyl surface--just like a freshly waxed car.

OK--chemistry 101 is now dismissed--don't forget that your final will be Monday, June 11th @ 2 pm ;)

Sorry for the long rant, but I hope it explains a few things...
 
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Cosmo-D said:
Every time I post somewhere about cleaning records (the solution I use was recommended by the manufacturer of my RCM and is isopropyl alcohol, water, with a drop of dish soap) invariably someone responds with the claim "alcohol leaches plasticizers from vinyl". I find this claim dubious, but I'd like to see it addressed so as to reduce the FUD around cleaning vinyl records.

Firstly, I am not a chemist. I have taken one university level chemistry course and that is the level of my expertise. However, I still find this claim about leaching doubtful. Isopropyl (or any other commonly used alcohol) couldn't interact with the composition of PVC for the same reasons that oil and water don't mix.

Water and alcohol are polar molecules. They have a positive and negative end to them. The attraction between the positive and negative poles is what keeps water molecules together. The polar nature also allows them to dissolve (or pull-apart) other polar compounds. Alcohol dissolves in water and vice versa.

Plastics and oils are not polar. They are held together by what is called van der Waals forces. Basically polar molecules like alcohol and water can't disrupt the forces that hold oil or plastic together—which is why oil and water don't mix.

Obviously, this is a huge simplification, but it forms the theoretical basis for why you probably don't need to worry about using alcohol on vinyl records. I specify vinyl because alcohol will damage shellac 78s and also acetate DJ pressings. Those however are not vinyl. Also, I would be hesitant to use non-polar solvents on a vinyl record. I wouldn't try to clean a vinyl record with lighter fluid, turpentine, white/mineral spirits, WD-40, or anything used to dissolve oil. Perhaps some of these are safe to use on vinyl records, but coming from a theoretical standpoint it isn't a good idea.

I'm also not going to try any strong acids or bases—although Drano (sodium hydroxide) might not harm vinyl (I've done lab experiments with sodium hydroxide and it is very dangerous stuff).

Any chemists out there who can confirm on deny what I've said? I've never made any polymers, so I could be wrong. From chemistry standpoint it seems like there is little reason to think that isopropyl alcohol (or similar) will damage vinyl (just vinyl—don't use it on records that aren't vinyl) records.
Click to expand...

Djcoolray said:
It’s a good situation to bring up because too many people are sharing fallacies like they are facts, then you have a newb that believes them. This site should be about defining facts, people come to this site as the best source of factual information concerning audio. Anyone with an objective train of thought knows that the elements that make up alcohol can’t dilute the elements that make up polymers after they have gone through a high heat process of creating a covalent bond.

That’s like saying water can have an effect on concrete after the combined elements making concrete have hardened...
Click to expand...

There is a great thread here on AK that was posted by a chemist. You acknowledged that you had a very limited education when it comes to chemistry and then go on to lay out why alcohol should be ok. No wonder why many people get confused.

This is from his post, "

Alcohols are great solvents. Isopropyl alcohol is the most widely used in record cleaning and is often included in commercial solutions. Other common alcohols are Ethanol and Methanol (or a mixture of the two called Denatured alcohol). Addition of alcohols to cleaning fluids has several advantages, as oil removers, dispersants, antibiotic/preservatives, and drying agents. So why are they bad to use on records? They aren’t really, it just depends on how they are used. First, alcohol should never be used at concentrations greater than 10% and contact time on the record surface should be minimized. Otherwise, they have been shown to leach out plasticizers that are part of the vinyl matrix (discussed earlier, and the main reason record preservationists are against their use…..remember, they are very good solvents!). Second, only purified stock solutions (95% or greater) should be used, not the household “rubbing alcohol” (isopropanol) or Vodka (ethanol) as these contain unpurified water, breakdown products, or other ingredients that can leave behind residues. Finally, most inks dissolve in alcohol so you have to be careful of your labels.
“How do I do it right?”
Avoid alcohols or use them at low concentrations made from pure stock solutions. Minimize the time they spend on the surface and keep them off your labels".

guest110, Nov 18, 2015 Report
#6
 
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Thanks to the OP for starting the thread and to Savatage for contributing.
As someone with a very limited knowledge of the topic, I enjoy reading.
 
Just for the record (and I have posted this elsewhere--so it is no "trade secret"), my main cleaning formulation consists of the following:

1 gal (128 fl oz) distilled water--approx. 4L
1 quart (32 fl oz) 91% isopropyl alcohol--approx. 1L
1 ounce (1 fl oz) 100% technical grade Triton X-100 surfactant--approx. 30mL

It is quick and easy to whip up a batch--all you need is a clean bucket, a gallon jug of distilled water, a 32 oz bottle of alcohol and a shot glass to measure the Triton.

NOTE: when purchasing/ordering the Triton, verify the concentration--it is sold as 100% concentration (technical grade), and also in prepared diluted concentrations (generally 10% for bio-lab uses), so you would need to adjust the amount accordingly.

Final formula will result in the following concentrations:

Distilled water ~79.5%
IPA ~20%
Triton ~6000 ppm

If you are concerned about the alcohol content, you can substitute 16 oz of IPA and 16 oz of additional distilled water in place of the 32 oz of IPA, but I have never felt the need to, and the solution higher in IPA evaporates (dries) much quicker.
 
My formula is 3 parts reverse osmosis water, 1 part 99% alcohol (special order at drug store). I put this into a spray-mist bottle and use it to damp my Discwasher brush.

I actually use a 4-step process on every record before playing a side. With the record turning, I wipe the grooves with a micro-fiber brush. Step 2 is do a couple of rotations with my Audioquest anti-stastic carbon brush. Step 3 is with the damp discwasher brush and step 4 is to lightly wipe the stylus with my AT stylus brush. I do this to every side I play, all the time.

The results are near "master tape" quality playback.
 
Vinyl is very stable and impervious to alcohol. Platisizers may leech out over time and will appear as a white residue resembling mold. You see it on old radio knobs and plastic signs from the 1950s once in awhile. I have not seen it happen on LPs. The formulas have been continuously improved since then. Of course acetone, xylene, toluene and other petroleum based solvents will melt a vinyl record.
 
botrytis said:
Technical grade is not a pure product. Triton can have all sorts crap in it being 50% pure. Also, any alcohol, above 50%, will automatically pick up moisture and contaminants from the air. If you alcohol is 3-6 months old and was opened, toss it.
Click to expand...

The Triton product that I purchase is >99% pure--that's why you check the specs before you buy. Having worked in the industry, pretty much any chemical that is registered for food or pharmaceutical use (as Triton is) all come from the same plant/tank farm (the main exception being mineral products), with different levels of documentation that accompany the shipment--there is also a significant jump in price from guaranteed industrial to food to pharmaceutical grade due to the cost of registration, packaging conditions/requirements, documented tested specifications/requirements, and liability associated with the product.

Alcohols are deliquescent--they absorb moisture. In fact, most alcohols cannot be produced as 100% pure without the use of a chemical "drying agent/process". Ethanol (beverage alcohol) can only be distilled to 95% purity (190 proof) because at 95% ethanol/5% water a constant boiling point azeotrope is formed and the last remaining water cannot be removed by distillation.,

ANYTHING left open to the air will accumulate contaminants from the air and ANYTHING that is remotely deliquescent can/will absorb water from the relative humidity in the air (think that bag of sugar that turns into a rock in your kitchen cabinet after a few months). This is significantly reduced in laboratory/production/packaging environments via climate control and clean room air filtration.

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't play records in a clean room, and I am cleaning a record, not prepping for open heart surgery.
 
savatage1973 said:
The Triton product that I purchase is >99% pure--that's why you check the specs before you buy. Having worked in the industry, pretty much any chemical that is registered for food or pharmaceutical use (as Triton is) all come from the same plant/tank farm (the main exception being mineral products), with different levels of documentation that accompany the shipment--there is also a significant jump in price from guaranteed industrial to food to pharmaceutical grade due to the cost of registration, packaging conditions/requirements, documented tested specifications/requirements, and liability associated with the product.

Alcohols are deliquescent--they absorb moisture. In fact, most alcohols cannot be produced as 100% pure without the use of a chemical "drying agent/process". Ethanol (beverage alcohol) can only be distilled to 95% purity (190 proof) because at 95% ethanol/5% water a constant boiling point azeotrope is formed and the last remaining water cannot be removed by distillation.,

ANYTHING left open to the air will accumulate contaminants from the air and ANYTHING that is remotely deliquescent can/will absorb water from the relative humidity in the air (think that bag of sugar that turns into a rock in your kitchen cabinet after a few months). This is significantly reduced in laboratory/production/packaging environments via climate control and clean room air filtration.

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't play records in a clean room, and I am cleaning a record, not prepping for open heart surgery.
Click to expand...


This alcohol says 99%, but also reads nothing added, 99.9% pure.

https://www.amazon.com/Isopropyl-Alcohol-99-Gallon-Packed/dp/B01DGYX7HO/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1527182412&sr=8-20&keywords=Isopropyl+Alcohol+99%

I bought it to clean PCB's, but would most likely be good for record cleaning solutions, maybe at a greater mixing solution (less alcohol). The Kirmuss says to use a 70% solution with their KA-RC-1 US cleaner.
 
smokinone said:
The Kirmuss says to use a 70% solution with their KA-RC-1 US cleaner.
Click to expand...

70% would work--the only difference is that it would contain less actual IPA per unit volume than a 91% or 99% product--just have to do a little math to get the correct concentration of actual IPA. The problem with 70% rubbing alcohol from the drugstore is that it frequently contains other additives beyond just IPA and distilled water--colorants, fragrances, menthol or oil of wintergreen, which are not desirable in your cleaning solution.
 
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